Poll

If heaven exists, who deserves to go there?

The moral believers only
3 (27.3%)
The moral unbelievers only
1 (9.1%)
The moral and immoral believers only
2 (18.2%)
The moral believers and moral unbelievers only
5 (45.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: April 12, 2006, 06:50:22 pm

Author Topic: A challenge to the religious  (Read 6662 times)

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2006, 06:23:09 am »
Very touching story there Mystik, and I don't want to antagonize you anymore, but you have to realize that most faiths believe that this life is a test. That is why God gives us infinite more rewards for not seeing that someone who does see him.

One could argue that in the Abrahamic faiths that the Books are the signs, and so are the prophets. God commands us to think with our minds, and He pretty much says if you still don't find me too bad.

I guess you think I'm a nutcase.

By the way, which faiths have you looked into?

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2006, 07:51:31 am »
Don't press him, Burning Z. This is a touchy spot for him; you're not going to do any good. It'd be like you trying to convince me that women deserve to be beaten by their husbands when they "misbehave." You're not only not going to convince me, but you're going to get a lot of mud in your eye. Poisonous mud. With worms in it. Poisonous worms.

Many people who undergo some deep trauma in their lives will either become even more strongly religious or nonreligious than they had been, or they'll flip sides and adopt religion where they had had none, or renounce religion where once they had been devout. That's just how it is.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2006, 09:18:19 am »
Yeah, well I eat poisonous mud for breakfast! Though I hear the poisonous worms army is growing as we speak! Run! Run!

Durakken

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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2006, 10:06:19 am »
i just say... do whatever you want. As long as you're true to yourself you are following what whatever is out there, if anything, wants you to do. If you're not true to yourself you can not be true to any god in the first place. And since god created you, you are only doing what god created you to do.

If you belive in reincarnation then you should look into yoursef and be true to yourself as well since that is the basis of most of those beliefs as well.

If you don't believe in any god or religion then and you don't be true to yourself then you've lived a regretful life in the end most likely

Mystik3eb

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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2006, 04:31:08 am »
To answer your question, BZ, I have to be honest and say I haven't sat down in a church meeting for any other religion outside Catholicism. I have studied teachings of loads of Christian religions, the basics of Islam and Buddhism, and teachings of Judaism.

What do I find to be the closest to the truth? Honestly, Mormonism, for a million reasons. What's the problem? The same problem all the religions have: no proof. Books are NOT proof, other people's stories are NOT proof.

Why do you feel your book is more right than the Torah or the Book of Mormon? Do you have a good reason to think it's more right, or is it simply your belief?

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2006, 04:56:01 am »
We just say the Torah has been corrupted, and I'm not sure about the Book of Mormon, since I haven't read it.

Zorro vz Zionistz

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« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2006, 07:40:50 am »
yo people, firstly i wont say much coz ull all argue wit me, but i will say as much as it kinda dependz on ur faith n everything on wot u belive is moral or bout heaven n hell, for example, coz im muslim ( allhamdollilah) , obviously i believe heaven n hell n allahswt n angelz etc although sum muslimz may not, but yeh , this reply is very oobvious like u kno duh it dependz, but yeh just thought i should be heard out! lol

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2006, 07:42:47 am »
Good on you amber. you show them. and if they argue, hit them with your frying pan. :P

CyberSarkany

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« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2006, 07:42:58 am »
The Bible can also be seen as "corrupted", because there was changed alot during the Middleages.
As for the Pool, even the Christians have to ways of thinking.

Evangelism: Everyone who truely believes is God deserved to come there, so even the greatest murder can come into heaven even if he has broken the 10 laws(whatever called) if he regrets what he has done etc..

Catholizism: Everyone not following the rules/ doing sins doesn't reach the heaven and will burn in hell. I remember these letters from the past  you could buy to be free of sins, and the Pope used the money to build the dome(or church? whatever)

I, even being a Christ, don't think any of this is true. I respect people having different believes and stuff, I like talking with them about their point of views, but I refuse to believe everything, based on a "Holy Book", on the speech of a prophet or what else. Heaven, if truly existing, wouldn't be heaven if there would be Humans like a few(or better, alot) of us. Of course its said "only the good parts will be in heaven" or so, but if just the "good"(opinion based word) parts of a person comes into the heaven, would we truly be the same person we have been on earth? I don't like the idea yet.

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2006, 07:45:28 am »
Quote from: CyberSarkany
The Bible can also be seen as "corrupted", because there was changed alot during the Middleages.
As for the Pool, even the Christians have to ways of thinking.

Yeah we all know that :P

Zorro vz Zionistz

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« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2006, 07:54:36 am »
lol Rafi, i try !
n yeh the bible is corrupted, n now they tryin 2 do the same with the quran, theyve made this 'new' version of the quran called the furqan, so yeh now they tryin but aint succeeedin coz us muslimz aint that stupid. so coz all the bookz torah bible n quran r special in their own wayz, the folk who dun believ in sum stuff or oppose certain lawz in the bookz, they want 2 change it all like the bummed up bush family, who mite say they christian or sumin, but they aint, they part of the illumanati stuff, they evil n they rule with so many secretz n in discrete tyrany n dictatorship.
They bad for u christianz name, mind allhamdollilah chrsitianz nice folk, keep it up  :)  
( if u disagree or find anyhin ive sed offensive, then sori! )

Durakken

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« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2006, 10:34:05 am »
There is one religion that i think can definately be said to be corrupted. I forget which it is but it's the one that says pretty much,... in the end Jesus christ will come back and tell all christians they are wrong and they should convert... i find that amazingly humorous.

Zorro vz Zionistz

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« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2006, 11:13:10 am »
firstly that religion is obviously the peoples who follow it
 now yeh itz fact that the bible n torah r edited , but thatz not pointin fingerz at people, but sayin that there is a religion which is,  could be offensive to the followerz of that religion, so i dun wanna be a big meani n am just sayin no religion is corrupted, just sum r so different n their believez r beyond us so we presume that they r wrong ( only allahswt-god-knoz hoz rite n wrong) , fore >
like the hinduz, they worship dieties n that shakti n shiva n all possess real powerz n that vishnu n mahesh etc created the universe,  but thatz wot they believe be it wrong or rite is another topic, but just coz they worship them , dun mean we call the hinduism a corrupted faith etc.
n there are other small n big faithz which believe the world will end with the destruction of all otherz etc.
( not that im hindo or anyhin- just gave an example. im muslim allhamdollilah  :D  n i luv it!  )

Durakken

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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2006, 02:35:41 pm »
it's not the ending of all other faiths that makes it corrupt but rather that the religion states "your savior will tell you you are wrong, even though if he was real it would prove you are right"

Maelstrom

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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2006, 03:06:14 pm »
Just about any religious text is a corrupt document.  It's already documented that the New Testament was changed during translations (including adding the "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" story; it's a great summary of some of Jesus's teachings, but it wasn't initially there and probably never happened), and you have to imagine that the Old Testament is going to be even worse (when people were even less educated and perceptive of the things around them, or were prone to fabricate details and possibly entire stories; for example, it's pretty absurd to suggest that people towards the beginning of the Bible's history used to live for several hundred years).

Regarding the article that was linked in the first post, it's a compelling argument, but there are some details that it does not give justice:

1) Regarding Argument #2, when people prove themselves to be "good" or "evil," the reality is that pretty much everyone will be neither perfectly good or perfectly evil.  It seems to be a bit weak to suggest that someone who is typically good but fails to excercise good judgement a few times is necessarily damned to Hell (as the word "purgatory" never shows up in that essay).

2) Regarding Argument #3, a just God doesn't necessary have to intervene to punish evildoers on this plane of existence.  Besides, a God not doing so forces us to be proactive in protecting ourselves and administering justice (of course, this is an imperfect art) and keeps us from being lazy.  But if there's a God, it may simply be a matter of its power not being placed in this domain; it's relevance may only come into play in an afterlife.

3) This point concerns Argument #3, and it ties into my opening rant as well, but if there's a God, it may very well have nothing to much if any of what is said in the Bible.  The God that asked Abraham to kill his son may be a false God, although that doesn't necessarily mean this is the same God that was observed in any other given part of the Bible.

4) Regarding Argument #4, there will be a lot of moral people who will be willing to test their faith, but even if the "right" conclusion is to conclude there is no God, they simply lack the luxury of time to properly assess and shape their values to come to that conclusion.  If they work long hours and/or die young (or lack a good education), well-meaning people may simply not get that opportunity, and it's not necessarily their fault.  Of course, more is expected of those with more idle time (ironically, we at least see the merit of the idea that it's easier for a camel to fit through a needle's eye than for a rich person to get into heaven).

I suppose I'm still an agnostic as the article suggests I am supposed to be if I am to be good, but the reasoning I take is a bit different.  The article concludes directly that there's no credible evidence for a just God, but there's a point to be argued first.  It's that the number of questionably moral things God does (or is said to have done), plus a number of other logical/situational absurdities, invalidates the Bible as a document to be taken literally.  The same can be said for really any other major religious document/compilation, so it would *then* follow that there probably isn't a just God, because there's no credible evidence of there being one (since all documents supporting that notion can be proved flawed, at least in a literal sense).

But this doesn't keep believers out.  It's naive to think that all just people should come to the same conclusion, because they are exposed to different stimuli and are placed under different constraints as we are.  Besides, the important thing isn't us judging others regarding whether they would get into heaven (if there is one), but for us to show the love, compassion, and understanding that we ought to be showing (not in order to get into heaven, but because we want to), which in turn should help them do the same as they become stronger.