You declaimed me for a totally tangental topic I never commented on.
If I REALLY want to get nitpicky, you said he was just allusive, but nothing to do with names. To me it seemed you said Woosley was the better creator. That seemed absurd, on the grounds that someone like Woosley could be considered better than they guy that made CC's Belthasar...
Wrong again. The context of the reply was in regards to the name of the Mammon Machine. Thus 'names' was the subject of the allusive quality.
However, on a matter of sheer opinion, I do far prefer the English, for the very reason outlined. I actually dislike much of anime and Japanese games for this and related reasons
Yes, since you've seen loads of anime and played every Japanese game to date, right?
I needn't. I've seen enough and played enough to gauge a general trend. One needn't do everything to know it. I have played many games that are Japanese, and seen several anime movies, namely Miyazaki's. Furhtermore, it was a comment based purely on opinion, and I claimed it as such, so there is nothing in there you can dispute. Japanese is inherently Eastern in the way it treats things; my mindset is Western. If a thing is truly Japanese, it must be Eastern - that is simply it's culture. It is not wrong, it is only a style, and worldview, I am not very fond of. There is too much of the spiritual, too much of the unreal there for my tastes. That is what I dislike in the bit you told me about Evengalion, Legend. It is not wrong, per say, it is merely that its fundamental style is Eastern. On the subject of using things allusively, well, that is an old gripe of mine, but I'll leave that be for now.
Chrono Trigger being one of the few I still like
And one of the few you really saw, too.
I've seen far more of Japanese media than you have Greek, yet you still feel inclined to comment on that, don't you? If you want a list... Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Chrono Cross, FFVI, FFVII, FFX, Dark Cloud 2, Xenosaga, and a few others I can't now recall by name; for movies, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, and Kiki's Delivery service (of which I own all but the last.) From the bits I have seen, I truly have no inclination to see any more save those few (which were rather good, for the most part; I rather dislike the end in Mononoke - guess why? - and the strangeness in Sprited Away.) Every clip I have seen, say of Evengalion, makes me think of it as a bit immature in style.
but when they do they seem to have no idea how to use them properly, and so it tends to look extremely silly and juvenile to those that have any idea about the actual things
..Of which you have a very low understanding of the plot of the series as a whole, thus uncapable of knowing if Nephilim has anything to do with fallen ones or not. Proto Merkabah even made sense in a way. And you haven't played Xenogears, have you?
One must stand on its own. If it can't, it's a failure. And I'm not just talking about the term Nephilim. That one no one has ever gotten right to my knowledge, so it's forgiveable. What about using the names of the Apostles on the Zohar Emulators? Spouting from Revelations in the flashback on Miltia? That's just shock value. Albedo quoting Jesus? It sounds ridiculous. There's no meaning in it. A child could write that.
Fortunately, Chrono Trigger seems to avoid this, the Japanese being, well, Japanese, and the English English.
Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' theory which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot.
Interesting... I got that message from the first, before ever coming to any of these forums. Maybe you just missed it yourself.
It's not just taking a few liberties, it'd delibrately messing with the point. Imagine someone would take your Nephilim, change the setting and name Meridith 'Sue', turning into a Tom Clancy like story.
Whoa, major jump in logic. Woosly didn't do that. Not to that extent. A bit was changed, it's true. But so? Here's a far better analogy. If someone were to take my story, translate it into, say, Swahili, or some foreign tongue, and therein use the name Sue, which has specific meaning in that language. That is what we are talking about. Now, if 'Sue' in Swahili meant something clever, heck even cleverer than Merideth (which isn't clever in the least), I'd be sure, all power to them. I wish I'd have thought of it. If they took my story, and made it Tom Clancy like... well, hey, I'd laugh. Sure, not what I intended, but you know, a story can be told in multiple ways. If a Tom Clancy type story meant more to that people, let it be. I wouldn't complain too greatly. However, things can't be totally changed. You went to an illogical extreme in what you said. Woosly never changed the setting, and didn't mess with it THAT greatly. It is more akin to, as I have said, the Greek Tragedians did to the Greek myths. And if someone were to mess with my stories like that, hey, it's all right. It happened with Star Wars, you know, and look what a vast universe ended up being written for that, because it became flexible. Hold the story static, and it becomes stagnant. And finally, you can't ignore the fact that, had especially the names been kept original, it wouldn't have made as much sense (just like the Japanese can't seem to quite grasp our concepts.) Honestly, I don't think I would have ended up playing it.
But as a side-note, it was Merideth, just so you know. But no longer, it's now the Greek Kallista, which ties in with the people-name 'Kallians'. I also found my abhorrent use of the Nephilim was rather silly, and so I use it merely as an anglisized form, something more familiar to western eyes. It's actually Nephelidai, which has meaning in Greek. Or, if you wish, Khalkidai.
It's no longer about making a story more easy to understand-it's changing your idea, squashing them and pushing them away.
Now you're talking like a fanboy. I could say that Jackson did that to the character of Faramir. Remember LOTR? In the movie, Faramir is tempted by the ring exceedingly. In the book, he barely gives it a second glance. He changed it. But did I complain like this? No. Because I'm not a fanboy.
Something you write comes from YOU,
Wrong. It comes from society and humanity as a whole. As Mary Shelly said, one cannot bring something new into existance, one can only create order of chaos. All your ideas come from somewhere.
and changing what you wrote, and released, thinking it would do well, is like depriving you of opinion and your freedom of speech-if you want that, go ahead. I, for one, prefer to have my works themselves kept intact-if anyone wants to make fandom from them, by all means, but at least stick to what I did, damnit.
Then your works will stagnate. Some flexibility must be allowed. Woosly did not change things as much as you say. And the primary concept in this was the name changes, something that is easily defensible as needful for a different audience.
And if someone were to say they prefer the movie Troy to the Iliad, I would most definitely not proclaim it 'the most stupid comment in memory.'
But if someone were to say the director of Troy was wiser than Homer? -_-
I'd disagree, but wouldn't say it's the stupidest comment I ever heard. But even if I would, I have far more backing than you ever did. What's Chrono Trigger? A good game, to be sure, but the story isn't exactly a work of literature, you know. And it's only existed for a decade. Homer is almost three thousand years old - older than the Bible - and was revered even in antiquity. Homer is one of those rare writers who almost never has had a scholar hate him. Homer is rather difficult to stand again.
But here, I'm going to blow you away, Legend...
In what he did, Petersen did rightly, and was better than Homer. Sure, I'd like to see a 'real' Iliad, but that's my own Classicist mind speaking. For the general audience, Troy is good. The only thing they should have had was the funeral games chariot race (mainly because I think it would have been a great action sequence.) But truly, Petersen was, for the age, wiser. Because, you see, as meaningful as Homer is, such things need to be updated now and again. Homeric ideals... sure, they're interesting to us Classicists, but does the average Joe care what a Homeric male was all about? Likely not. And the movie wasn't made to give a history lesson. Instead, it's made like a movie that is relevant today. Relevant to the audience. And THAT is what matters. I have said this before, I admire Troy, not for its relation to the Iliad, but because it has done just what the Greek Tragedians did: update the old tale to make it relevant to a modern audience. Achilles speaks not like an ancient Greek, but a modern man contemplating life and death. They are modern personalities in an ancient setting. Homer will always be pre-eminent, of course, but that doesn't make Petersen wrong in what he did. In fact, I quite adore the way he attempted to portray certain elements, which come across as far more meaningful to most of us nowadays than what Homer wrote.
Didn't expect me to hold that view, did you? As I said, I'm not a fanboy. I know the virtues and faults in a lot of things, and that includes the things I favour highly. Homer is great, but I know nowadays he's lost some of his currency, and that's just how it is. If I can't accept things changed, can't accept retellings and all for the sake of speaking to the times, then I'm just living in the past, and what wisdom is there in that? I defend the past, I study it, but because it speaks to us now. What is really important is what it can tell us for our own future, what we can glean from it.
what about LOTR? Oh, wait, Jackson made things up? He left out Tom Bombadil? Scandalous! How dare he! Oh, wait, it's a different sort of audience...
~Cough~Warcraft~Cough~
Yeah, I don't like it, I've complained before. But that's just opinion. I also understand how these things work realistically, and won't complain too much. What bothers me is not that they've copied Tolkien, as much as that in my opinion they have not made proper use of him, and have only done so in a surface way and without understanding the influences behind. But Kato's story wasn't nearly so complex in composition - it was not his life's work. My problem is less that they change Tolkien, more that they do it so badly. I don't see that problem with Woosly. If the story had been more CCesqe... I honestly think it would have been worse for it. I can guess by extrapolation, though only a guess, that I think Woosly improved upon Kato. If someone had improved on Tolkien, been deeper and all, that wouldn't have bothered me (heck, it might even be the case somewhere I haven't seen. I'm not claiming Tolkien for god.)
The plot didn't take drastically different tones. Just certain elements. And honestly, it's none of my business. Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.
Like I said earlier...
Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' idea which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot.
Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.
Yes, but the plot was never changed as greatly as you claim, was it? Even if it was, never so badly. You still might get a bit of an idea of what Tolkien envisioned as a plot because most of it is intact. However, if you look at CT, important themes were left out, which were only understood later on upon inspection of CC and the original Japanese release. If the original release and the translation are so apart... I'm sorry, I'd rather read the plot and know it's the actual plot, other than a holed story with a pretty cover. I want to know what Belthasar really did, not have him named after some biblical wise man who gave some carpenter baby a gift.[/quote]
From the things I have heard of the original, Kato is by no means a genious that warrants this sort of praise. I could write a story about as well, and far deeper, given a few more years of practice. In fact, I warrant you could in a few years as well. It's only the way it came together with music and style that made it what it was. The story alone was merely mediocre, and I think would have been more so without Woosly.
You must remember, Legend, I began as a fanfiction writer - taking liberties with others' material is something I am well versed in an can appreciate.
..But you continued the plot. You didn't change the original work.
Oh, but I did! Let's see... references to Greek myths? Check. References to God? Check. Lavos as an immortal tyrant? Check. I couldn't follow the Chrono theme at all. I changed it more than Woosly ever did, of that I'm certain.
By the way, that Mammon argument is silly. They didn't know what Mammon is? Well, then I suppose they don't know what a 'Chrono' is either, eh?
Yes, well, they never called it time, have they? Crono is a name, and Chrono Trigger is a device that channels dreams to change events that have already happened. But whatever, this is a 1995 game, things then weren't as clever as they are today (which, if you'd see more modern Japanese things other than Miyazaki and some SE RPG's (which aren't the highlight of Japanese society, I'm afraid) you might notice that.
Mammon could just be a name then, too.
But anyway, I'm not exactly interested in seeing more Japanese things. I never really liked it much before, and I don't think I ever will. It's not a matter of 'seeing more'. It's just never appealed to me much. And there are enough anime fanboys out there, the world doesn't need another. But Classicists? Now that's a dying breed, and the works that we preserve are far more antique and important to the human endeavour in the long run. Remember, half the things I read are older than any comparable work in the East, most certainly Japan, which is a very new civilization by comparison. The language and literature I study has roots stretching from Europe to India.
