Author Topic: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?  (Read 21480 times)

AuraTwilight

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2006, 06:38:01 pm »
Not to mention they're all bound to items made of Dreamstone. My theory was that Melchior used Dreamstone to create the three of them.

V_Translanka

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2006, 08:28:45 pm »
I've always been of the idea that they're in some way agents of the Entity, which is why the Masamune seems to absorb that kind of Entity/Lavos energy and why the Pendant (which I believe is the resting place of Doreen) is involved in the opening of the gates. Perhaps Doreen is the "Dream" of the Entity.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2006, 02:00:32 am »
I've always been of the idea that they're in some way agents of the Entity, which is why the Masamune seems to absorb that kind of Entity/Lavos energy and why the Pendant (which I believe is the resting place of Doreen) is involved in the opening of the gates. Perhaps Doreen is the "Dream" of the Entity.

Doreen, as well as the other two, are the dreams of Melchior. However, I would agree that there is a strong Entity-Dreamstone connect, perhaps similar to the Lavos-FrozenFlame one. The Frozen Flame is a wish fulfiller, though most often it is only the wishes of that entity to which it is tied, Lavos - it is the essence of Lavos. The Dreamstone, however, might be the essence of the Entity, the Earth. The life-blood or heart of that being. Chrono Cross, you see, maintains that the Earth is 'dreaming' all the beings existing on it (I suppose Lavos is a catastrophic nightmare) - thus, what truer reflection of its state of being than something which manifests dreams? On a large scale, the Dreamstone is probably an integral part of the Earth, part of its substance which allows its conciousness to become reality, to affect things physically from the spiritual. When humanity get their hands on pieces of it, they can use it to the same effect, but on a smaller scale. Thus the creatures of the world are to the Entity what Masa and Mune (and Doreen) are to Melchior.

A side-comment on Dreamstone. This has probably been mentioned, but I thought about it for the first time today. We all know that the Dreamstone was used to make the Mammon Machine, right? And we all know that Mammon is a term used because of Zeal's worship of it like a god, and all that, but... I just recalled Melchior's comment about Dreamstone, that it was once used as money (presumably in early Zeal.) Thus the 'Mammon' machine isn't so-named because it has the avaricious properties of money, but because it is, literally, made of money. Much like the Hebrews melting down their gold to make the calf whilst at Sinai, the people of Zeal gave their money to make the machine, their object of worship. Here, oh Zeal, is the god that will save you, that has delivered you from the shackels of the world...

Chrono'99

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2006, 08:06:21 am »
Actually, Gaspar in the Japanese version only says that dreamstone was more valuable than money, not used as money per se. The Mammon Machine is also originally called the Demon God Machine (or just Demon Machine).

Daid

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2006, 10:37:17 am »
Maybe Zeal had most of the Dreamstone stored away. Queen Zeal was kind of greedy and she seemed to collect any materials that could pose a threat to her power and use them for herself. The dreamstone could be forged into something to challenge her or lavos. She probably relised this and kept it for herself.
When Zeal fell dreamstone was at the bottom of the ocean.
This is just speculation but almost everthing in this forum is.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2006, 04:05:38 pm »
Actually, Gaspar in the Japanese version only says that dreamstone was more valuable than money, not used as money per se. The Mammon Machine is also originally called the Demon God Machine (or just Demon Machine).

That's the Japanese version, though. I think, on a literary basis, the English far outmatches the Japanese. That is what I was speaking in reference to. Sure, maybe it's not the exact same as the Japanese, but all that means then is that Woosly is more clever and allusive than Kato.

Legend of the Past

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2006, 05:18:16 pm »
Woosly is more clever and allusive than Kato.

You've just said the single most stupid thing anyone has EVER said in ANY subject to my memory.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2006, 02:48:57 am »
Woosly is more clever and allusive than Kato.

You've just said the single most stupid thing anyone has EVER said in ANY subject to my memory.

And why praytell is that? I request you back that up with proof. Just because Kato made up the characters, does not make him better in so far as names are concerned.  Woosly's names are far more allusive and fitting than any Kato had. That is irrefutable. Which one LIKES better is a matter of opinion, but I did not say outright 'Woosly is better than Kato.' I merely said the name he employed are far superior: Zeal to Jeal, Janus to Jaki, and so forth. Actually, I didn't even go so far. I merely said that they are more clever and allusive. That is simple fact. Almost none of Kato's names are allusive or clever, they are simply names; Kato's on the other hand draw from mythological sources, often identifying with the character. 'Demon God Machine' vs. 'Mammon Machine' - the first is a descrption of what it is in relation to Lavos, a simple descrption of what it is, whilst the second draws from literary sources. How is this comment so absolutely stupid? Woosly is simply more literary than Kato is - get over it.

Thus, your comment has just backfired: it was simply foolish to blast me for the truth, and makes you look silly. You just reverted to fanboyism. Congratulations, Legend. Next time back up your comment, rather than just speaking fiery nonesense.

Legend of the Past

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2006, 09:05:11 am »
Woosly is more clever and allusive than Kato.

You've just said the single most stupid thing anyone has EVER said in ANY subject to my memory.

And why praytell is that? I request you back that up with proof. Just because Kato made up the characters, does not make him better in so far as names are concerned.  Woosly's names are far more allusive and fitting than any Kato had. That is irrefutable. Which one LIKES better is a matter of opinion, but I did not say outright 'Woosly is better than Kato.' I merely said the name he employed are far superior: Zeal to Jeal, Janus to Jaki, and so forth. Actually, I didn't even go so far. I merely said that they are more clever and allusive. That is simple fact. Almost none of Kato's names are allusive or clever, they are simply names; Kato's on the other hand draw from mythological sources, often identifying with the character. 'Demon God Machine' vs. 'Mammon Machine' - the first is a descrption of what it is in relation to Lavos, a simple descrption of what it is, whilst the second draws from literary sources. How is this comment so absolutely stupid? Woosly is simply more literary than Kato is - get over it.

Thus, your comment has just backfired: it was simply foolish to blast me for the truth, and makes you look silly. You just reverted to fanboyism. Congratulations, Legend. Next time back up your comment, rather than just speaking fiery nonesense.

Not really. You didn't really seem to get the point why right about EVERYONE here hate Woosly-he changed the plot of Crono to fit it into the game. Now, honestly, Kato wasn't one bit original when it came to naming, but neither did Woosly-The Gurus aren't original names, Schala is Sara with an addition, because in the transition between Japanese and English R's and L's alternate(diallect more than anything). Marle has ZERO meaning, actually. In Japanese, she was called Maru, with Nadia being Marudia. Thus, you have Marle slipping over her tognue, saying part of the name.  As for the Mammon Machine-you count overmuch about fan translation. Things in Japanese have rarely one meaning, and I'm sure the Mammon Machine has AT LEAST one more meaning.

Also, you seem to mistake one thing-The Zealians should have no idea what Mammon even is. The term doesn't exist in that world. You see, Woosly made things more simple so the stupid americans could understand them. You therefore ask, where did the Zealians ever LEARN that word? Answer? There is none. It's a Wooslyism. Loads of things got lost in translation because of that. I'm not being fanboyistic-I'm bashing Woosly for messing with a plot he had nothing to do with it's creation. Janus and Schala never were half-brothers. They were blood brothers. However, Woosly, for whatever dumb reason, decided to change it. If YOUR work would be so bluntly changed, so much the plot starts taking different tones than what you originally intendended and wanted,  would YOU be pleased?

Oh, Jeal and Zeal are the same thing in Japanese, unless I'm terribly mistaken. -_-
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:08:27 am by Legend of the Past »

Magus22

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2006, 05:52:23 pm »
Dreamstone . . .

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2006, 06:14:21 pm »
Not really. You didn't really seem to get the point why right about EVERYONE here hate Woosly-he changed the plot of Crono to fit it into the game. Now, honestly, Kato wasn't one bit original when it came to naming, but neither did Woosly-The Gurus aren't original names, Schala is Sara with an addition, because in the transition between Japanese and English R's and L's alternate(diallect more than anything). Marle has ZERO meaning, actually. In Japanese, she was called Maru, with Nadia being Marudia. Thus, you have Marle slipping over her tognue, saying part of the name.  As for the Mammon Machine-you count overmuch about fan translation. Things in Japanese have rarely one meaning, and I'm sure the Mammon Machine has AT LEAST one more meaning.


If that is the case, then you totally missed your mark. You declaimed me for a totally tangental topic I never commented on. You are arguing a Kato vs Woosly on the basis of Plot, and how well you think it worked, and adherence to the original story. None of that has nothing to do with what I said, thus making your argument misguided and irrelevant. I merely said Woosly is more 'allusive and clever' than Kato in naming. That Woosly changed the story, that 'everyone' hates him, is totally beside the point. I made a very specific comment on the nature of the names, one that you have not been able to clearly refute. Yes, Marle might have no meaning, nor do many of the other English names. And yes, a few of the Japanese ones have meanings. But by and large there are more English ones with clever or allusive names. That is all I argued, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Majou might have about the same allusive quality as Magus, but Jacky not more than Janus. Schala and Sarah are equal, but of course Schala is just an English transliteration of the Japanese, so they are on equal terms. Jeal is not to my knowledge of any meaning, but Zeal is. The Three Wise Men of Zeal are cleverly named - the Japanese were little stabs at condiments. Trite, but of far lesser allusive quality. This is the trend. Whether you like the English or Japanese better, if the English adheres properly... all that is totally irrelevant. If you want to refute me so viciously, at least be courtious enough to respond in regard to the issue, and not toss out these red herrings that have nothing to do with what I said. If I'd said 'the English is better than the Japanese' you would have had grounds for speaking as you do. Since you did not, it doesn't.

However, on a matter of sheer opinion, I do far prefer the English, for the very reason outlined. I actually dislike much of anime and Japanese games for this and related reasons, Chrono Trigger being one of the few I still like, chiefly for its nostalgic value. You see, the Japanese story writers seem very fond of using western ideas or words now and again, but when they do they seem to have no idea how to use them properly, and so it tends to look extremely silly and juvenile to those that have any idea about the actual things (the worst perpetrator I've seen: Xenosaga I.) I put a lot of worth into a writer's ability to understand the things he or she alludes to, and how it all ties together, and when I see simplistic and childlike name-copies, I can't help but feel a bit annoyed. Fortunately, Chrono Trigger seems to avoid this, the Japanese being, well, Japanese, and the English English. That is the proper way of things. And, in the end, I prefer the English version simply for its connect to our culture. You may say it's for us 'stupid' westerners but, hey, it's better than the Japanese 'borrowing' our symbolism and mangling it to sheer sillyness. And keep in mind: any good translation must make itself known to the readers. For example, I personally like Lattimore's translation of the Iliad, but the average reader will be very annoyed to see the heroes named with Greek transliteration. No Achilles or Ajax or Teucer here. No, it's all Achilleus, Aias, and Teukros. It does bring across far more of the original feel, but only a fanboy cannot make admission for the fact that for the general audience, Achilles is far superior to Akhilleus. Or, a better example, I can enjoy and not hate Wolfgang Petersen for what he did to the Iliad. It's nothing like Homer, but oh well. That's the way of literature. If I were to see a group of Classicists saying how much they hate Petersen for what he did to Homer, I'd mutter 'nerds'. And if someone were to say they prefer the movie Troy to the Iliad, I would most definitely not proclaim it 'the most stupid comment in memory.' That would be the height of childishness, wouldn't you agree? Rather, I would ask why, and admit to its various virtues, rather than pointing out faults. Or, apart from the Iliad, what about LOTR? Oh, wait, Jackson made things up? He left out Tom Bombadil? Scandalous! How dare he! Oh, wait, it's a different sort of audience...

Also, you seem to mistake one thing-The Zealians should have no idea what Mammon even is. The term doesn't exist in that world. You see, Woosly made things more simple so the stupid americans could understand them. You therefore ask, where did the Zealians ever LEARN that word? Answer? There is none. It's a Wooslyism. Loads of things got lost in translation because of that. I'm not being fanboyistic-I'm bashing Woosly for messing with a plot he had nothing to do with it's creation. Janus and Schala never were half-brothers. They were blood brothers. However, Woosly, for whatever dumb reason, decided to change it. If YOUR work would be so bluntly changed, so much the plot starts taking different tones than what you originally intendended and wanted,  would YOU be pleased?

The plot didn't take drastically different tones. Just certain elements. And honestly, it's none of my business. Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.

For my part, if someone in changing names and elements bettered my story, go for it. All power to them. The purpose isn't my own honour, it's art's sake, and if the art can be improved therein, all the better. You must remember, Legend, I began as a fanfiction writer - taking liberties with others' material is something I am well versed in an can appreciate. If a new writer can adapt it to say his own thing through my story, perfect. It is no different than the three great Tragedians each telling the same story in different ways (specifically, the Oresteia, in well, the Oresteia by Aeschylus, Electra by Sophocles, and both Orestes and Elektra by Euripides.) In fact, very often the same tragedian will tell the myth different ways. In one story, Menelaos is noble and virtuous, as is Helen, who never went to Troy (the play Helen, more of an early romantic comedy than tragedy); in another, Menelaos is a villain, a coward, and a bully (Andromache). Both are by Euripides. You see, we nowadays are too stuck up with 'plot'. Our idea is once the plot changes, the story has been messed with and corrupted. Not true. Plot can be in the service of theme, and it can be that the plot can be changed, even by different writers, with no inherent evil therein.

By the way, that Mammon argument is silly. They didn't know what Mammon is? Well, then I suppose they don't know what a 'Chrono' is either, eh?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 06:18:15 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Chrono'99

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2006, 06:20:56 pm »
Please, his name is Woolsey... whenever I read "Woosly" I think about Bruce Lee for some reason (probably because I think with a French accent)

Zaperking

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2006, 07:58:01 pm »

Oh, Jeal and Zeal are the same thing in Japanese, unless I'm terribly mistaken. -_-

You're mistaken :P Z sound is made from putting a tenten (") on a S character. J is made by putting a tenten on the shi character. It makes it into Ji.

Vehek

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2006, 08:15:17 pm »


The Three Wise Men of Zeal are cleverly named - the Japanese were little stabs at condiments. Trite, but of far lesser allusive quality.


So "Bosch", "Gasch", and "Hasch" are condiments?
I think you're getting them mixed up with Ozzie/Vinegar, Slash/Soy Sauce, and Flea/Mayonaissse.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2006, 11:09:58 pm »


The Three Wise Men of Zeal are cleverly named - the Japanese were little stabs at condiments. Trite, but of far lesser allusive quality.


So "Bosch", "Gasch", and "Hasch" are condiments?
I think you're getting them mixed up with Ozzie/Vinegar, Slash/Soy Sauce, and Flea/Mayonaissse.

I am. Thanks for correcting me.