Author Topic: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?  (Read 21474 times)

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #120 on: September 19, 2006, 12:47:34 am »
Quote
You declaimed me for a totally tangental topic I never commented on.

If I REALLY want to get nitpicky, you said he was just allusive, but nothing to do with names. To me it seemed you said Woosley was the better creator. That seemed absurd, on the grounds that someone like Woosley could be considered better than they guy that made CC's Belthasar...


Oh, Jeal and Zeal are the same thing in Japanese, unless I'm terribly mistaken. -_-

You're mistaken :P Z sound is made from putting a tenten (") on a S character. J is made by putting a tenten on the shi character. It makes it into Ji.

Uh... I'd like to get Aura's acount on that, your knowledge of Japanese has been known to fail before, Zaper. No offense, but I'd like a Japanese speaker's opinion.

Quote from: Dan
However, on a matter of sheer opinion, I do far prefer the English, for the very reason outlined. I actually dislike much of anime and Japanese games for this and related reasons

Yes, since you've seen loads of anime and played every Japanese game to date, right?

Quote
Chrono Trigger being one of the few I still like

And one of the few you really saw, too.

Quote
but when they do they seem to have no idea how to use them properly, and so it tends to look extremely silly and juvenile to those that have any idea about the actual things

..Of which you have a very low understanding of the plot of the series as a whole, thus uncapable of knowing if Nephilim has anything to do with fallen ones or not. Proto Merkabah even made sense in a way. And you haven't played Xenogears, have you?


Quote
Fortunately, Chrono Trigger seems to avoid this, the Japanese being, well, Japanese, and the English English.

Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' theory which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot. It's not just taking a few liberties, it'd delibrately messing with the point. Imagine someone would take your Nephilim, change the setting and name Meridith 'Sue', turning into a Tom Clancy like story. It's no longer about making a story more easy to understand-it's changing your idea, squashing them and pushing them away. Something you write comes from YOU, and changing what you wrote, and released, thinking it would do well, is like depriving you of opinion and your freedom of speech-if you want that, go ahead. I, for one, prefer to have my works themselves kept intact-if anyone wants to make fandom from them, by all means,  but at least stick to what I did, damnit.

Quote
And if someone were to say they prefer the movie Troy to the Iliad, I would most definitely not proclaim it 'the most stupid comment in memory.'

But if someone were to say the director of Troy was wiser than Homer? -_-

Quote
what about LOTR? Oh, wait, Jackson made things up? He left out Tom Bombadil? Scandalous! How dare he! Oh, wait, it's a different sort of audience...

~Cough~Warcraft~Cough~

Quote
The plot didn't take drastically different tones. Just certain elements. And honestly, it's none of my business. Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.

Like I said earlier...

Quote from: Moi
Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' idea which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot.

Quote
Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.

Yes, but the plot was never changed, was it? Even if it was, never so badly. You still might get a bit of an idea of what Tolkien envisioned as a plot because most of it is intact. However, if you look at CT, important themes were left out, which were only understood later on upon inspection of CC and the original Japanese release. If the original release and the translation are so apart... I'm sorry, I'd rather read the plot and know it's the actual plot, other than a holed story with a pretty cover. I want to know what Belthasar really did, not have him named after some biblical wise man who gave some carpenter baby a gift.

Quote
You must remember, Legend, I began as a fanfiction writer - taking liberties with others' material is something I am well versed in an can appreciate.

..But you continued the plot. You didn't change the original work.

Quote
By the way, that Mammon argument is silly. They didn't know what Mammon is? Well, then I suppose they don't know what a 'Chrono' is either, eh?

Yes, well, they never called it time, have they? Crono is a name, and Chrono Trigger is a device that channels dreams to change events that have already happened. But whatever, this is a 1995 game, things then weren't as clever as they are today (which, if you'd see more modern Japanese things other than Miyazaki and some SE RPG's (which aren't the highlight of Japanese society, I'm afraid) you might notice that.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2006, 03:23:13 am »
Quote
You declaimed me for a totally tangental topic I never commented on.

If I REALLY want to get nitpicky, you said he was just allusive, but nothing to do with names. To me it seemed you said Woosley was the better creator. That seemed absurd, on the grounds that someone like Woosley could be considered better than they guy that made CC's Belthasar...

Wrong again. The context of the reply was in regards to the name of the Mammon Machine. Thus 'names' was the subject of the allusive quality.


Quote from: Dan
However, on a matter of sheer opinion, I do far prefer the English, for the very reason outlined. I actually dislike much of anime and Japanese games for this and related reasons

Yes, since you've seen loads of anime and played every Japanese game to date, right?

I needn't. I've seen enough and played enough to gauge a general trend. One needn't do everything to know it. I have played many games that are Japanese, and seen several anime movies, namely Miyazaki's. Furhtermore, it was a comment based purely on opinion, and I claimed it as such, so there is nothing in there you can dispute. Japanese is inherently Eastern in the way it treats things; my mindset is Western. If a thing is truly Japanese, it must be Eastern - that is simply it's culture. It is not wrong, it is only a style, and worldview, I am not very fond of. There is too much of the spiritual, too much of the unreal there for my tastes. That is what I dislike in the bit you told me about Evengalion, Legend. It is not wrong, per say, it is merely that its fundamental style is Eastern. On the subject of using things allusively, well, that is an old gripe of mine, but I'll leave that be for now.

Quote
Chrono Trigger being one of the few I still like

And one of the few you really saw, too.

I've seen far more of Japanese media than you have Greek, yet you still feel inclined to comment on that, don't you? If you want a list... Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Chrono Cross, FFVI, FFVII, FFX, Dark Cloud 2, Xenosaga, and a few others I can't now recall by name; for movies, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, and Kiki's Delivery service (of which I own all but the last.) From the bits I have seen, I truly have no inclination to see any more save those few (which were rather good, for the most part; I rather dislike the end in Mononoke - guess why? - and the strangeness in Sprited Away.) Every clip I have seen, say of Evengalion, makes me think of it as a bit immature in style.

Quote
but when they do they seem to have no idea how to use them properly, and so it tends to look extremely silly and juvenile to those that have any idea about the actual things

..Of which you have a very low understanding of the plot of the series as a whole, thus uncapable of knowing if Nephilim has anything to do with fallen ones or not. Proto Merkabah even made sense in a way. And you haven't played Xenogears, have you?


One must stand on its own. If it can't, it's a failure. And I'm not just talking about the term Nephilim. That one no one has ever gotten right to my knowledge, so it's forgiveable. What about using the names of the Apostles on the Zohar Emulators? Spouting from Revelations in the flashback on Miltia? That's just shock value. Albedo quoting Jesus? It sounds ridiculous. There's no meaning in it. A child could write that.

Quote
Fortunately, Chrono Trigger seems to avoid this, the Japanese being, well, Japanese, and the English English.

Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' theory which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot.

Interesting... I got that message from the first, before ever coming to any of these forums. Maybe you just missed it yourself.

It's not just taking a few liberties, it'd delibrately messing with the point. Imagine someone would take your Nephilim, change the setting and name Meridith 'Sue', turning into a Tom Clancy like story.


Whoa, major jump in logic. Woosly didn't do that. Not to that extent. A bit was changed, it's true. But so? Here's a far better analogy. If someone were to take my story, translate it into, say, Swahili, or some foreign tongue, and therein use the name Sue, which has specific meaning in that language. That is what we are talking about. Now, if 'Sue' in Swahili meant something clever, heck even cleverer than Merideth (which isn't clever in the least), I'd be sure, all power to them. I wish I'd have thought of it. If they took my story, and made it Tom Clancy like... well, hey, I'd laugh. Sure, not what I intended, but you know, a story can be told in multiple ways. If a Tom Clancy type story meant more to that people, let it be. I wouldn't complain too greatly. However, things can't be totally changed. You went to an illogical extreme in what you said. Woosly never changed the setting, and didn't mess with it THAT greatly. It is more akin to, as I have said, the Greek Tragedians did to the Greek myths. And if someone were to mess with my stories like that, hey, it's all right. It happened with Star Wars, you know, and look what a vast universe ended up being written for that, because it became flexible. Hold the story static, and it becomes stagnant. And finally, you can't ignore the fact that, had especially the names been kept original, it wouldn't have made as much sense (just like the Japanese can't seem to quite grasp our concepts.) Honestly, I don't think I would have ended up playing it.

But as a side-note, it was Merideth, just so you know. But no longer, it's now the Greek Kallista, which ties in with the people-name 'Kallians'. I also found my abhorrent use of the Nephilim was rather silly, and so I use it merely as an anglisized form, something more familiar to western eyes. It's actually Nephelidai, which has meaning in Greek. Or, if you wish, Khalkidai.

It's no longer about making a story more easy to understand-it's changing your idea, squashing them and pushing them away.


Now you're talking like a fanboy. I could say that Jackson did that to the character of Faramir. Remember LOTR? In the movie, Faramir is tempted by the ring exceedingly. In the book, he barely gives it a second glance. He changed it. But did I complain like this? No. Because I'm not a fanboy.

Something you write comes from YOU,

Wrong. It comes from society and humanity as a whole. As Mary Shelly said, one cannot bring something new into existance, one can only create order of chaos. All your ideas come from somewhere.

and changing what you wrote, and released, thinking it would do well, is like depriving you of opinion and your freedom of speech-if you want that, go ahead. I, for one, prefer to have my works themselves kept intact-if anyone wants to make fandom from them, by all means,  but at least stick to what I did, damnit.


Then your works will stagnate. Some flexibility must be allowed. Woosly did not change things as much as you say. And the primary concept in this was the name changes, something that is easily defensible as needful for a different audience.

Quote
And if someone were to say they prefer the movie Troy to the Iliad, I would most definitely not proclaim it 'the most stupid comment in memory.'

But if someone were to say the director of Troy was wiser than Homer? -_-


I'd disagree, but wouldn't say it's the stupidest comment I ever heard. But even if I would, I have far more backing than you ever did. What's Chrono Trigger? A good game, to be sure, but the story isn't exactly a work of literature, you know. And it's only existed for a decade. Homer is almost three thousand years old - older than the Bible - and was revered even in antiquity. Homer is one of those rare writers who almost never has had a scholar hate him. Homer is rather difficult to stand again.

But here, I'm going to blow you away, Legend...

In what he did, Petersen did rightly, and was better than Homer. Sure, I'd like to see a 'real' Iliad, but that's my own Classicist mind speaking. For the general audience, Troy is good. The only thing they should have had was the funeral games chariot race (mainly because I think it would have been a great action sequence.) But truly, Petersen was, for the age, wiser. Because, you see, as meaningful as Homer is, such things need to be updated now and again. Homeric ideals... sure, they're interesting to us Classicists, but does the average Joe care what a Homeric male was all about? Likely not. And the movie wasn't made to give a history lesson. Instead, it's made like a movie that is relevant today. Relevant to the audience. And THAT is what matters. I have said this before, I admire Troy, not for its relation to the Iliad, but because it has done just what the Greek Tragedians did: update the old tale to make it relevant to a modern audience. Achilles speaks not like an ancient Greek, but a modern man contemplating life and death. They are modern personalities in an ancient setting. Homer will always be pre-eminent, of course, but that doesn't make Petersen wrong in what he did. In fact, I quite adore the way he attempted to portray certain elements, which come across as far more meaningful to most of us nowadays than what Homer wrote.

Didn't expect me to hold that view, did you? As I said, I'm not a fanboy. I know the virtues and faults in a lot of things, and that includes the things I favour highly. Homer is great, but I know nowadays he's lost some of his currency, and that's just how it is. If I can't accept things changed, can't accept retellings and all for the sake of speaking to the times, then I'm just living in the past, and what wisdom is there in that? I defend the past, I study it, but because it speaks to us now. What is really important is what it can tell us for our own future, what we can glean from it.

Quote
what about LOTR? Oh, wait, Jackson made things up? He left out Tom Bombadil? Scandalous! How dare he! Oh, wait, it's a different sort of audience...

~Cough~Warcraft~Cough~


Yeah, I don't like it, I've complained before. But that's just opinion. I also understand how these things work realistically, and won't complain too much. What bothers me is not that they've copied Tolkien, as much as that in my opinion they have not made proper use of him, and have only done so in a surface way and without understanding the influences behind. But Kato's story wasn't nearly so complex in composition - it was not his life's work. My problem is less that they change Tolkien, more that they do it so badly. I don't see that problem with Woosly. If the story had been more CCesqe... I honestly think it would have been worse for it. I can guess by extrapolation, though only a guess, that I think Woosly improved upon Kato. If someone had improved on Tolkien, been deeper and all, that wouldn't have bothered me (heck, it might even be the case somewhere I haven't seen. I'm not claiming Tolkien for god.)

Quote
The plot didn't take drastically different tones. Just certain elements. And honestly, it's none of my business. Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.

Like I said earlier...

Quote from: Moi
Yeah, but then you might of missed what the original writer was trying to tell you! Woosley butchered the 'Planet=Entity' idea which is, unless you've totally missed the point, the most central theme of the Chrono series and very instrumental to the plot.

Quote
Art is a collective possession, and many great works would not exist if not for writers feeling they have the right to change someone else's story.

Yes, but the plot was never changed as greatly as you claim, was it? Even if it was, never so badly. You still might get a bit of an idea of what Tolkien envisioned as a plot because most of it is intact. However, if you look at CT, important themes were left out, which were only understood later on upon inspection of CC and the original Japanese release. If the original release and the translation are so apart... I'm sorry, I'd rather read the plot and know it's the actual plot, other than a holed story with a pretty cover. I want to know what Belthasar really did, not have him named after some biblical wise man who gave some carpenter baby a gift.[/quote]

From the things I have heard of the original, Kato is by no means a genious that warrants this sort of praise. I could write a story about as well, and far deeper, given a few more years of practice. In fact, I warrant you could in a few years as well. It's only the way it came together with music and style that made it what it was. The story alone was merely mediocre, and I think would have been more so without Woosly.

Quote
You must remember, Legend, I began as a fanfiction writer - taking liberties with others' material is something I am well versed in an can appreciate.

..But you continued the plot. You didn't change the original work.


Oh, but I did! Let's see... references to Greek myths? Check. References to God? Check. Lavos as an immortal tyrant? Check. I couldn't follow the Chrono theme at all. I changed it more than Woosly ever did, of that I'm certain.

Quote
By the way, that Mammon argument is silly. They didn't know what Mammon is? Well, then I suppose they don't know what a 'Chrono' is either, eh?

Yes, well, they never called it time, have they? Crono is a name, and Chrono Trigger is a device that channels dreams to change events that have already happened. But whatever, this is a 1995 game, things then weren't as clever as they are today (which, if you'd see more modern Japanese things other than Miyazaki and some SE RPG's (which aren't the highlight of Japanese society, I'm afraid) you might notice that.

Mammon could just be a name then, too.
But anyway, I'm not exactly interested in seeing more Japanese things. I never really liked it much before, and I don't think I ever will. It's not a matter of 'seeing more'. It's just never appealed to me much. And there are enough anime fanboys out there, the world doesn't need another. But Classicists? Now that's a dying breed, and the works that we preserve are far more antique and important to the human endeavour in the long run. Remember, half the things I read are older than any comparable work in the East, most certainly Japan, which is a very new civilization by comparison. The language and literature I study has roots stretching from Europe to India.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2006, 08:07:40 am »
You know what really annoys me? You're so sure you actually KNOW that Anime isn't for you tastes. You know what is it that really attracts anime? There's a little something for everyone. You like fighting, martial arts and eye candy? You have Naruto. You like drama and touching plots? AiR, or Kimi Ga Nozomou Eien. You like psychological motifs? Evangelion.

On a side note, Anno and Miyazaki are old friends from back in the eighties. You can say Anno honed his arts at some Miyazaki things. Now, perhaps you wouldn't like Evangelion-plenty of immature humour and it is, with all honesty, a very very weird anime, albeit still beautiful. Now, just for some random, unlogical, unthinkable idea-

How about you watch it before you condem it? It won't kill you. There's plenty of anime out there, some of them without juvenile humour. If you don't like it, which is fine, you can find plenty serious anime-X, which you seem to reject time after time without giving a glance. Not a single bit of tasteless humour there. Or Wolf's Rain? A beautiful, touching anime, and no eye candy or jokes about it.

The latter is extremely recommended for anyone with eyes and ears. I should make my dog watch it on occaison.

Regardless, though, if you were to watch ONE anime that isn't stupid idiocy (DBZ), eye-candy (Naruto) or plain-old cheap porn (Girls Bravo), like Evangelion, Wolf's Rain, AiR, X, even Tsubasa Chronicle! I'd really leave you alone about this particular topic. No, you don't understand the Japanese way-because you never tried to learn it! You might argue it doesn't intrest you, but you don't even know what it's about-you just cancel it because you think it doesn't have what you like. Note on THINK.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2006, 10:41:21 am »
It is "Jiru" in Japanese. I'm not really sold on the idea of AuraTwilight really being a Japanese speaker, so there you go.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2006, 02:53:15 pm »
You know what really annoys me? You're so sure you actually KNOW that Anime isn't for you tastes. You know what is it that really attracts anime? There's a little something for everyone. You like fighting, martial arts and eye candy? You have Naruto. You like drama and touching plots? AiR, or Kimi Ga Nozomou Eien. You like psychological motifs? Evangelion.


What annoys ME is that you assume one must try all of something in order to see if you like it or not. No, anime doesn't have something for all tastes. It doesn't really for mine. Show me the anime that balances mind and the spirit properly, that has pure western philosophy. I don't like martial arts; I don't like psychology in the least (actually, I quite despise it, being more inclined to philsophy). Seriously, man, give it a break. You really ARE sounding like a fanboy. Do I hound you to read all of Homer, to read Aeschylus, and Sophocles, Euripides and Herodotos, just because each is different and you might find something you like? I suggest them, but leave it at that. I don't make the silly patronizing parental argument 'just try your beans, they might be your favorite.'

On a side note, Anno and Miyazaki are old friends from back in the eighties. You can say Anno honed his arts at some Miyazaki things. Now, perhaps you wouldn't like Evangelion-plenty of immature humour and it is, with all honesty, a very very weird anime, albeit still beautiful. Now, just for some random, unlogical, unthinkable idea-

To me, weird has no beauty whatsoever. I have a Greek mind that sees beauty in the real. When I see weird, it generally repells me.

How about you watch it before you condem it? It won't kill you.

No, but it could be a horrid waste of time. And knowing you, if I watch one episode and don't like it, you'll say 'well, that one wasn't very good; watch this one now.' And so on and so forth like a true fanboy. Nor did I condemn it per say, I merely said that I know it is not my sort of thing. I can tell from the style of artwork, the motifs of the plot and theme - things which you have explained to me in general - and none have appealed to me in the least. Now, if I don't like the general, why would I like the specific and more detailed? You already know I don't consider a plot good just because it is detailed and complicated. So if the general holds not interest for me, neither will the specific.

By the way, I also wouldn't be caught dead with it. To be honest, it strikes me as extremely nerdy, and I've done what I can to step away from that. It would literally embarrass me to watch that sort of anime

There's plenty of anime out there, some of them without juvenile humour. If you don't like it, which is fine, you can find plenty serious anime-X, which you seem to reject time after time without giving a glance. Not a single bit of tasteless humour there. Or Wolf's Rain? A beautiful, touching anime, and no eye candy or jokes about it.

It has nothing to do with juvenile versus serious. It has everything to do with the style of storytelling which is, surprise surprise, Japanese. I don't like that. Other art forms have the sort of things I like, to a surfeit, why need I turn to something that is questionable to my tastes? You think its just because I see it all as juvenile, but that's not the case. I have given anime and Japanese things more than their chance - contrary to your ridiculous 'give it MORE of a chance' argument - and it has failed to enthrall me. Miyazaki? Good. But what stands out the most for me in, say, Castle in the Sky is quite honestly the music, and the little bit of antique language (the supposed speech from Laputa.)

But if I were to try any more eastern media, I would read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. That looks pretty interesting. I would not turn to anime, however. Neither its serious work nor its comedy has any draw on me.

The latter is extremely recommended for anyone with eyes and ears. I should make my dog watch it on occaison.

Regardless, though, if you were to watch ONE anime that isn't stupid idiocy (DBZ), eye-candy (Naruto) or plain-old cheap porn (Girls Bravo), like Evangelion, Wolf's Rain, AiR, X, even Tsubasa Chronicle! I'd really leave you alone about this particular topic. No, you don't understand the Japanese way-because you never tried to learn it!

BS pure and simple. I've read Japanese myths, have you? You only know Japanese pop culture. And I actually knew about Evengalion long, long before you ever mentioned it. A friend of mine has it, I believe, or at least knew the whole thing, and explained a bunch of it to me. He is, if you haven't guessed, quite into anime and eastern type art. But for me, I read some of their myths, but truly, it just doesn't interest me. I don't have to learn it. I know it, I know the basics, but I don't have to like everything in the world. I've tried more and been more varied than you have, Legend, so I can make that call for myself.


You might argue it doesn't intrest you, but you don't even know what it's about-you just cancel it because you think it doesn't have what you like. Note on THINK.

Man, I don't like ANIME. I don't like the style, the very style that MAKES it anime, most often. If you don't like epic, not knowing a specific one doesn't make your general assumption invalid. Don't like the Iliad because of its style, because of its epic nature? Then you sure as hell are qualified to say you wouldn't like the Odyssey, the Civil War, the Aeneid, or the Thebaid. It's simple.

You see, you unfortunately are totally single-minded in regards to writing. You think plot is everything, and so say 'you don't know what it's about', but that to me is irrelevant. It is not the plot I am speaking of, it is style and theme. Style is something generally the same across anime (which is what makes it anime); and for theme, I far prefer western philosophy, which I can reasonably guess never comes into play in anime. Evangelion for example. They like to use Western names and concepts in name, but from what you say... it sounds rather silly to me. And I think my anime-liking friend would agree with me on that. I once argued with him that they don't even have a right to do that, but I think he won me over in that they have a right, but even he would have said they don't neccessarially do it well.

Here's why I don't like it. When they stick to their own culture, I don't like it because it is that. Simply a matter of taste. But when they try and put in more Western ideas, well, I don't think I've yet seen it work out. And the more you've said about Evangelion, the more you've driven me to that mindset.

One last thing, though. You are saying the motifs it has? Does it have tragedy? And I don't mean just our colloquial 'tragic', but true Sophoclean tragedy, which is far best of all, even surpassing epic. Few others have taken properly the heights of tragedy (only one other I can think of), and from all that I have ever seen, I do not think the Japanese in their mindset are capable of writing tragedy, which is my favorite, and what I wish for. You see, tragedy is a peculiar thing, that cannot be depressing, but must exalt humanity through the suffering of one capable of suffering. It stems very much from a perfect union of mind and spirit, but the Japanese, inherently, being eastern, have a style that bends far more to the spiritual. Hence you get indiviudalzation, you get internalization of thoughts and the psychology you speak of for Evangelion. But this is not tragedy. Tragedy is something majestic and glorious. It's not just simply 'really horrible things happen to this person.' No, it's far deeper than that. It cannot withdraw from the world, but must face it. 

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #125 on: September 19, 2006, 03:53:57 pm »
Actually, as far as EVA goes, I'm forced to agree-the names really don't have anything to do. There aren't any ACTUAL biblical refferences-they're all pretty name tags you know and recognize which happen to have something to do with the plot. Wait.. now, who does that remind me, then?

Now, if you don't think plot matters, sure, do what you want. It just strikes me as odd-you want to hear the idea, but are wholly unintrested in how the writer worked to trasmit it. I mean, what did the writer work for months for? The theme is usually there from the start-you find your theme and build the plot from the way up. But here's the point-it's only the foundation, the deep idea. Now, if a skilled plot-writer were to take a good theme and be able to use it properly he could create a plot EQUALLY good. Now, Socrates took the theme of tragedy-what would THAT be without the tale of Antigone and Oedipus? Nothing. This is where plot and theme differ, I think-you can send a good plot with a bad theme, but you can NEVER send a good theme without a good plot and expect it to work. I don't just admire the plot, I admire the theme and how a creator can manipulate the theme as he does, like a sculptor can shape clay. You have a plot that is sad, that indeed, brings tears in your eyes. Japanese writers do, actually, insert emotions into their work. AiR is a perfect example of it-it brought me to tears three times, two of which I cried outright.  Now, does that mean the plot got to me? Probably. However, for a plot to get to me, a good theme HAS to be there. It can be a theme I can understand-everyday life, certain strifes in our existence, or bigger questions-or, on the other hand, it can be an abstract theme which I cannot completely grasp, but I feel it's grandness, I feel it's beauty. Perhaps you never will get the way anime works-and if so, I guess that's your loss. However, I comprehend it, and it very much moves me to tears at times. I can recognize many of themes, for example, Harle's quete in Chrono Cross- "If you do not keep going, reality will cursh you. Reality will kill you. And reality will keep going as if nothing ever happened, leaving your crushed body behind." This is, to me, a very relevant quote-If I can't keep up with the world, if I dawdle or don't think, reality's weight will crush me and leave me with nothing, and a very unlikely chance of EVER getting forward.

Now, for something I for whatever reason neglected to say- I AM a fanboy. Just as I am a nerd. You make it sound extremly bad, but those are passions-intense passions-probably rash, but then am I not in the age of rashness?-of art I  appreciate. Now, you might not see from my point of view, but neither do I see yours. Now, I'd like you not to get agitated with me and just listen here, as I very much regret having bashed you here- what rather pisses me off is that you refuse to, at the very least, take my word for it ONCE. That's what I meant earlier-Watch a single anime from the list I gave you-if you truly find it flawed and very much against you, I'll give it up. Perhaps Evangelion is NOT the best choice for you-it's very much insane but has it's own sort of beauty imbeeded inside it's crazy depths. Now, assuming you take X or Wolf's Rain, both of which I highly recommend, you certainly won't find Homer or any new themes. But you would find something good, two animes which I consider to be the top of all anime. Now, if you don't like them-fine, I'll leave you alone with this for good and there'll be no more bashing of any type as to anime.  I guess this is me being a defensive, rash fanboy? But that's me, eh? I've always enjoyed things that transmit emotion very well,  ANY emotion, and anime fills this role perfectly. If you REALLY don't want to bother with anime, if you're REALLY sure you can't give me a break here and at least try those animes I tell you, don't do it. This is an offer, neither an attempt to force you nor an attempt to bash you. I'd just like you to at least get a taste of what I consider good, because so far you've seen nothing which I've seen\considered very good. Princess Mononoke was good, for example, but the plot is very simplistic and the theme is very redundant. Now, in the advent of you actually taking up my offer-never judge by the first episode.

I just hope you're not too angry with me-I admit to being wrong and perhaps a bit too hotheaded (also note that 'stupidest thing I've ever heard' thing was done about 15 minutes after I woke up and I was sort of half-awake. I take it back-it seemed stupid to me, but I've certainly heard dumber things. I apologize for that sincerely). Hope it won't wound your opinion of me, I hate it when my rashness does that to me.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2006, 07:56:36 pm »
I just hope you're not too angry with me-I admit to being wrong and perhaps a bit too hotheaded (also note that 'stupidest thing I've ever heard' thing was done about 15 minutes after I woke up and I was sort of half-awake. I take it back-it seemed stupid to me, but I've certainly heard dumber things. I apologize for that sincerely). Hope it won't wound your opinion of me, I hate it when my rashness does that to me.

Oh, come on Legend. You honestly think I hold a grudge against you for arguing about anime?

Now... I'll see. If I happen to run across it, or if the mood strikes me (it does not and again)...

By the way, I did look for it on Youtube, but couldn't find any. Just fan-made music videos.

Legend of the Past

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1679
    • View Profile
Re: Dreamstone, a naturally occuring substance?
« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2006, 02:09:05 am »
I just hope you're not too angry with me-I admit to being wrong and perhaps a bit too hotheaded (also note that 'stupidest thing I've ever heard' thing was done about 15 minutes after I woke up and I was sort of half-awake. I take it back-it seemed stupid to me, but I've certainly heard dumber things. I apologize for that sincerely). Hope it won't wound your opinion of me, I hate it when my rashness does that to me.

Oh, come on Legend. You honestly think I hold a grudge against you for arguing about anime?

Now... I'll see. If I happen to run across it, or if the mood strikes me (it does not and again)...

By the way, I did look for it on Youtube, but couldn't find any. Just fan-made music videos.

Well, that's good, I guess. I was afraid I'd gotten you pissed.

Meh, it takes a bit of trial and error to find anime there... If the mood ever crosses you, let me know, I'll find it and tell you the right search words-you need to be cautios with those.