Serge's origin / Kid vs. Leena

[ZeaLitY]

An interesting argument on this subject recently developed at gamefaqs. I'll post the particulars. Original thread: http://cgi.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.asp?board=24058&topic=11466074&page=2

This will pick up where the good stuff starts. Be wary of reading this commentary; if you see anything that's cloudy report it. Gamefaqs is a general messageboard, unlike the Compendium in its current state.

One That Was is right on the money. What throws us off the Serge & Kid idea is Leena's dislike of Funguy's daughter's conversing with Serge and the inscription on the Home World rock, "Serge and Leena forever." However, the fortune teller distinctly tells Leena that "It says, you will not find a boyfriend for a long time. Fortunetelling
is such a merciless thing..." (Thanks to Chrono'99 of the Compendium for pointing this out). Also, Chrono'99 demonstrated that the man in the wedding picture on Schala's desk

http://www.rpgplanet.com/ff9/ccross/images/cc46.jpg

wears similar clothing to a formative sketch of Serge shown in the art book 'Missing Piece.'

http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/Resource/ccartbook-111.jpg

There's still the problem of why Schala remarked that she would search for Serge. We know that Schala and Kid do not 'merge' into one person at the end of Cross (more on this if you question it); perhaps Serge and Kid got hitched. A lot of this stuff is ambiguous, however, as why would the picture then be on Schala's desk?

About Leena: Don't forget that it is Another's Leena who joins you and likewise will get her fortune told. She won't have a boyfriend. But Serge is from Home and likes Home's Leena. I can see Home's Serge getting with Home's Leena at the end, especially because Kid is not in that world.

I can see the evidence that Square wanted Kid and Serge to be an item, I just think they did a very bad job. To have a character that doesn't really have any spoken lines and a character that isn't even in half the game suddenly "make a connection" is just ludicrous to me (although I should clarify, as the fact that Serge never really talked didn't have much bearing, as he could have expressed it better through his actions. Just look at Marle and Crono, as there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that they were an item, especially with the animated ending in the Chronicles version). At least if they were going to do this they should have given the two a better backstory so it doesn't feel quite so stilted (look at Kairi and Sora at the end of Kingdom Hearts).

I can also kind of see the similarities between this "love triangle" (although I feel loath to call it that) and Final Fantasy VII's of Cloud-Aeris-Tifa. Aeris had feelings for Cloud and I think Cloud had feelings for her (even if they weren't totally reciprocated in the game). They seemed like the perfect destined couple, but the events of the game happened and they were not meant to be. Whereas, Tifa was the here-and-now girl and helped to show Cloud where he really fit in with this world.

I can see Kid as the Aeris archetype, with her and Serge possibly making a great couple, but it is not meant to be, for as soon as Serge completes the directives of "Project Kid" they are separated. This doesn't mean that Kid will still not look for Serge though, much like Cloud always seems to be looking for someone in every game since FFVII he's been in (although it doesn't always appear that he is looking for the same person). Leena, however, is the Tifa archetype and can draw Serge into the present. She roots him in reality and helps keep him grounded in the present so that he doesn't dwell on the past. I don't see how Serge would not settle down with Leena at the end of Chrono Cross, much like Cloud settled down with Tifa.

That being said, Square isn't too good at writing love stories, but I still give them credit for trying. And that's my two cents on the matter.

Here comes One That Was. FYI, I recently refuted parts of his argument on magic, which can be found in that thread on the Compendium.

I have to disagree with the "Cloud/Tifa/Aeris" Theory. Mainly because, unlike that whole scenario, Leena isn't a major factor. Simply put.

Lets take into consideration that, despite Kid not being present, as you said, Leena was even LESS present. Her role in the game (As far as it goes for the 'Leena' in question, which is "Home Leena") is nearly non-existant. She is merely there at the beginning of the game, and afterwards she is seemingly meaningless to the story, and unimportant as a romantic interest, as far as could be ascertained by Serge's Actions.

HOWEVER, Kid is actually of great importance, regardless of her lack of presence.

To begin with, she is the central point of the story, or one of, and also it seems that Serge is, through his actions, more involved with Kid than he *was* with Leena.

Scenes such as the one aboard the Invincable while you're Lynx (After the scene at Hermits Hide-away), and all the hints that Harle drops along the way, should show that Kid is more than the "Aeris archetype".

If Anything, I would include Harle as the Aeris Archetype, because she DOES fit that Role. Leena didn't seem to be of any great importance in any area of the game, romantic or otherwise. Serge seemed to have forgotten her by the time Kid gets sick at Guldove.

The Only proofs that support The "Serge/Leena" romantic situation is that Serge was "Hooked up" with her before the events in the game sweep him into a different Romantic situation, and that in the end he "Forgets" the whole thing.

On that last part, Serge's unheard comments on Terra Tower are enough to disprove the forgetfulness that makes the last part so vital to Leena as a love interest. It is entirely possible that Serge and Leena don't work out after the events of CC take place. There is less proof to say that they would, and more proof to say they won't.

SO, I still feel that Serge/Kid is the reality of things. I Honestly can't see anything that can truly drive someone to feel otherwise.

.....Of Course, all of this without mentioning Squares "Official Statements" on the matter.

BUT anywho, back on topic:
The problem with the characters within the game isn't that they are cheap, and a great many resemble pokemon, or are equally annoying, if not visually then through some other means which can't be determined without inspection of the individual character.

The problem is the AMUNT of Characters, and the lack of quality to them.

Suppose that, instead of 44 characters, we had....20. Lets suppose that, of those 20, Poshul was Vital, a forced character. There is no way you can get out of having Poshul around.

HOWEVER, I certainly wouldn't mind Poshul (...well, actually, I really just can't stand the pinkness of the thing...who ever heard of a pink dog?) if she had SOME backstory, SOME character growth and developement, and SOME importance to the story.

However, Like I said, only 3 Characters in CC have that much importance to the game, so the remaining 41 are mostly worthless. Those that have any one of those above traits is lacking in the others, so we basically have a lack of character quality.

I suppose it doesn't matter though. If people like carrying around a pink dog whose only purpose is to annoy me, go for it. But this complaint isn't going to vanish just because some people like some characters. The Fact of the matter is, fewer people would have a problem, and we wouldn't hear about it so much, if the characters of CC actually had SOME quality to them.

Remember, Quantity and Quality are not the same thing. I really hope Square has realized this....

I do see something against Kid. Kid is not a missing piece to the world like Serge. Kid could only use the amulet to go back in time if she was in danger, not to cross the dimensions. Even though there should technically be a "Kid" in Home, where is she? Of course I speculate, but I believe she followed Lynx to the Dead Sea to avenge Lucca, and was simultaneously killed when Miguel fell. Not to mention that Home's Kid, were she alive, would not have had the experiences of Another's Kid, just like Home's Leena did not experience Another's adventure.

Kid cannot traverse dimensions because she is not "the missing link." Only Serge could. Anyone could when the distortion was restored, but defeating the Time Devourer changed that (at least Schala said that.) and because Kid is the one searching for him, plus because it belongs to Kid (I doubt Serge would keep it.) Serge does not have the other key to the worlds, the amulet. If Serge and Kid cannot meet, they cannot be together.

The only interest Serge could have, assuming he must have one, would be with Leena. She still likes him because, due to her statements, she does not know about Serge, and she still likes him.

"The only interest Serge could have..."

Thats a false statement. Of course Serge could have other interests. Its possible he had an interest in harle, who could easily slip between dimensions. Its possible he could hae an interest with Lisa, the shop-keeper in Termina.

However, his MAIN interest, throughout the game, is Kid. Leena, Like I said, is only considered because of a very small shred of evidence that supports her. While Kid is contested as not being possible due to a small shred of evidence against her.

....OK, anyway, lets address your point. Which, BTW, is verging upon extending into a very complex series of "What Ifs" and theorizing.

Kids problem is that, as you said, she couldn't travel interdimensionally after Serge left. True.

However, Schala implies that after Kid and Serge were seperated at the end of the game, there is only a SINGLE Dimension.

Fact: Serge exists in this Unified Dimension
Fact: Kid also exists in this Unified Dimension, as the intact version that we know (Not the "Home Kid", which we don't even know exists or not)

Fact: Schala and Kid supposedly Merge
Fact: Kid has a Time Egg, which allows for Time Travel.

THUS, considering all these Facts, its easy to assume, or guess, that Serge is NOT left with Leena as his only option. Kid is very much a possibility as the Love interest even AFTER The supposed forgetfulness, and so on, which, as I explained above (In my previous post) is questionable because Serge doesn't actually seem to Forget.

Kid can, very possibly, meet Serge Again, as She says she WILL do.

Thus, Leena really isn't the most likely candidate for the Romantic interest. Again, its a matter of how much evidence supports them.

Leena has only two, very small, and seemingly consequential bits of evidence that support her, and it is entirely possible that Serge could dump her in favor of anyone else. Enter in the next part:

Kid has a tremendous amount of Evidence that is seen throughout the course of the entire Game, and the bits of evidence against her are themselves in question (As explained in the previous paragraphs). Thus, it is entirey Likely that Serge would opt of Kid over Leena.

AND, Considering the Eipc Nature of any RPG, chances are that the "Epic Love Interest", in this case, Kid (See again, any of the Above posts), would be the reality that concludes the whole game. Epic tales of adventure and Romance usually end in epic endings that adequately resolve those.

Not Always, but in most cases. And, Considering the Publishing company, the series in question, and the genre, its a safe bet to lean towards Kid.

BUT, thats just the way I feel. Feel free to feel otherwise. Its not like I haven't ever had an opinion that differed from tremendous heaps of evidence that states otherwise (Take for instance my Guile=Magus Theory).

SPOILERS:

However, the fortune teller distinctly tells Leena that "It says, you will not find a boyfriend for a long time.”

Well, that’s Another World Leena. Why Serge would leave his own world to hook up with an alternate universe version of his own girlfriend is beyond me.

I can see the evidence that Square wanted Kid and Serge to be an item, I just think they did a very bad job.

Bingo.

I mean, her comments upon recovering from the posioning, the time she told him her life story, the little recap of memories he had just before Harle left the party, Radius’ comments upon when they ventured into her memories to rescue her, more pathetic attempts to show something extremely difficult to notice.

Another problem with silent heroes. It was no trouble in Chrono Trigger where Marle pretty much did all of the work, but Kid was absent from the party for about half to two-thirds of the game.

I haven't read most of this yet; I'll post my thoughts later.

[Doctor Shaft]

the evidence does start to lean dramatically towards Kid. I have read the entire article, and That One Was basically summed up the situation.  

Leena is an absentee girlfriend.  

The quote about her never having a boyfriend was directed at an alternate dimension version of herself.  I guess that kind of refutes the usefulness of the statement.  but then again, we have to remember that the dimensions are eventually unified.  Are the fates of the characters, based on dimension, really that much different (besides the fact that some die due to major events that SHOUDLN'T have really happened in the first place)?  

The dimensions are split becasue of Serge... but we also have to remember that the personalities of the characters aren't very different, and are only altered because of Fate. Fate using the "library of time" or whatever those save point thingies were. Records of Fate. hah.  I remember now.  The one dimension is different because of the records of fate.  Another dimension still has a record... hence the slight differences... but they are only slight... and they are artificial.

perhaps the fortune given to Leena wasn't just a fortune of "hey, Serge is dead, no boyfriends for you", but really just the future of things to come. The fortune teller explains the future... not the past.  Leena will be unified at the end of the game.  And in the new history, both Leena's have known Serge by now for quite some time.  It's not like one gets erased and the other saved.  They are merged.  The dimension flows the way it should have flowed.  I feel that anyway you slice it... Leena was not meant to be with Serge.

But that's all based on conjecture. Looking at the story though, the only way for Leena to be even considered the true romantic interest is if you go out of your way to be with Leena. You actually have to make an effort to leave Kid in peril, and ignore her desires to join your party, just get a chance at Leena.  And even then, it's a Leena from another world. Home World Leena gets ditched... and for all we know, she may not even be much of a fighter.  

Also, we have to look at the relationship as it was portrayed in the beginning of the game. Serge wakes up... his mother reminds him about his girlfriend in a conversation. Someone else has to ASK you if you remember your little promise to Leena.  By now, the player, and even Serge, is like "huh?".  You then talk to Leena, and instead of an endearing friendship, you have little kid Leena telling Serge to go kill some komodo dragons and make her a necklace. And Serge, though he goes and does this... doesn't exactly jump up and down.  The conversation seems like it's one of the those reluctant agreements. Leena is Serges friend, and Serge is a silent yet nice guy with nothing to do. Why not go hunting... he's a fighter after all.  Otherwise, the relationship is entirely undeveloped and seems nothing more than a boy/girl infatuation.  

there are no flashbacks, no concerns voiced by Serge or expressed throughout the rest of the game.  And that's with 40 some odd characters. Serge seems to spend more time with the other 40 people than he does with Leena. That's saying alot.

[Chrono'99]

mmh I have a good theory about what happens at CC ending. Schala said :

[...]Oh, but yes... Eventually all dreams will return to Zurvan... to the sea of dreams...  Serge...! Don't go yet, Serge...!!! It's alright.  Everything is alright now.  Time, which has been divided, will be unified again now. The time for farewells has come... You will lose all memory of this whole adventure and return to your own time.  But this time you will be able to live your own life!(1)!

We alone do not have the power to heal the world's woes, or to solve all its mysteries And yet, even then... It was bloody good knowing ya, mate! Thanks for being born "you," Serge!  I guess now's the time to say, "see ya later, mate!" But... I'll find ya... Sometime... somewhere... I'm bloody sure of it! No matter the time period, no matter the world ya live in, I'll find ya(2)! I'm sure... I am sure I will...

But i'm sure we'll meet again, someday you and I
Another place, another time although
You may not know who I am
Let us open the door to the great unknown across another reality
And live another today even when the story has been told.  We'll meet
each other again(3)

(1) Schala seems to say that Serge will be able to live his own life in the unified dimension, with Leena perhaps?
(2) Schala (or Schala-Kid ...) now says she will find Serge, certainly she wants to live with him or something. Does it contradict the (1) ? No   ! because :
(3) She knows Serge is gonna be in the unified dimension, BUT she's speaking about meeting him in another reality.

Conclusion :
The Serge from the unified dimension will live a normal life, perhaps forgotting his adventure, perhaps marrying Leena but never seeing Kid again.
A Serge from some other dimension will encounter Schala/Kid, he won't know who she is but they might marry each other.

[Igloo Bob]

I believe that Serge's life after the adventure falls into what Schala is talking about rather well.  When she says that he'll be able to live his own life, I believe she means he'll finally be able to make his own choices.  As Lucca tells us, Belthasar plans the entire adventure, from step one to the end when they fight the Time Devourer.  Serge is merely Belthasar's pawn, used to save the world.  His life so far has been limited by the situation he is placed in, (being Arbiter and the main guy of Belthasar's plan), and so it would seem that his choices would also be limited in a similar manner.  Now with the plan over, and FATE, the Dragons, and the Time Devourer destroyed, Serge is finally free to live his own life.  It is quite possible that his being with Leena is just a bi-product of his circumstances, and now that he finally has a completely free will, his choice of romantic interest will change as well.  His love for Kid is also hinted at on many occasions, the easiest to reference being the boat flashback, before Harle leaves.

I'm also in agreement with One That Was that Harle is a better person for a love triangle, though I believe that when comparing them to the FF7 triangle, Harle is almost definitely Tifa.  Tifa, after all, is the one who loves Cloud, and has known him since childhood, but is ignored once Aeris comes along.  Harle is in a similar situation.  She has feelings for Serge, but because of Kid, those feelings are not returned in the same way.  She remains a flirt, but there is really no serious spark of a romantic situation between the two of them (just as there most likely would not have been for Tifa and Cloud if Aeris had not died).  While Aeris and Harle do share some traits (both are "different" from everyone else, and have different duties because of that.  Aeris, being an Ancient, attempts to save the world by summoning Holy, while Harle is doing her best to fix the world without having a major war between the humans, dragons, and FATE), but for the purposes of the love triangle, I believe Harle is closest in function to Tifa, and Kid is Aeris.

[Daniel Krispin]

Kind of late posting my opinion, but I think that Serge would go back to Leena at the end. The reason for this is that he does not remember what happened at the end. I full well realize he mentions both FATE and Terra Tower... but I have always taken this to be as waking from a dream. As you awake, you remember your dream, but it slips away. Even so his words might have been the last rememberance of his adventure before his memory was sealed. So saying, he would have no memory of Schala. Even if the greater part of his love lay with her, he would have no rememberance, and so any feelings towards her would then be towards Leena. This isn't to say that they don't ever meet again, however... though I doubt it would be in the period immediately following the game. I believe the intent is that she searches the dimensions for him, and eventually finds him. What happens after that is somewhat speculation. I personally don't like to think that Serge would abandon Leena just like that, but who knows. Another factor is that it really appears that Schala and Kid become one and the same at the end. There is nothing to really prove this, but if not it would be a very strange situation. Kid certainly loves Serge. But so does Schala (was it not she that sent Kid to him in the first place, being touched by his cries as a child?). Schala's love seems deeper than Kid's. But anyway... who is it then that meets with Serge, if they do meet again? To avoid any difficulties, I would wager that they merge. Of course their souls are the same anyway. Their experiences differ, but since their spirits are of the same, it would not change who either is, only give the combined person two memories. Schala is Kid, Kid is Schala, after all...
All this aside, though, I wonder if in such a circumstance Serge would love her though. He certainly has feelings for Kid, but what of the ancient princess Schala? There is a difficulty there. Perhaps they work everything out in the end, as that portrait seems to hint at.

[GreenGannon]

Actually, when she says that Serge will be able to live his own life, she (IMO) meant something different.


Think about it. Did Serge want to switch dimensions? Did he want Kid to be poisoned? Did he want to switch bodies with Lynx?

Did he want to kill FATE? Well moot point. After the body switching that one changed.

Did he want the faeries/faries/farys and/or dwarves to die?

did he want the Dragons to merge thus dooming mankind to a terrible fate (No pun intended)?

No. He was forced into all of it. Now he won't have to

[koolkame]

Chrono'99:

She knows Serge is gonna be in the unified dimension, BUT she's speaking about meeting him in another reality

Couldn't the Unified Dimension count as another reality? I just can't see why she'd want to meet some other Serge she's never met and hook up with him. It kinda goes against the vibe I got from the ending that all lives are unique and important. The cinematics in the credits so seem to show Kid searching through a world like ours, so maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, and sorry about stealing your Robo Theory on the Rise of Porre thread. I looked for something similar before I posted, I swear.

[Shadow_Dragon]

i would like to point out, and sorry if it already has been (i read the first page of this thread yesterday, then remembered something and came back to post it), but the Leena that you can get in your party is the Leena in another world, not the Leena that's Serge's girlfriend, the Leena whose fortune is that she won't find a boyfriend has no Serge to match up with

[X ATM038x]

Isn't it like the "end of the Dream" at the end of CC? The entity, aka Mother Earth had this "dream of the entity"and could have these things done in order to kill Lavos, and since the Lavos thing is all dead and everything's back to normal (kind of), the dream might end?

The ending in which Leena awakes Serge (or in which Serge awakes at the beach) he babbles some things about Fate and the Terra tower and all, and as someone before me pointed out you still remember some stuff about your dream when you awake, but it all slips away when you do your normal stuff and all, this could just be the end of the dream of Serge, the world's arbiter.

He could just go on with his normal life, collecting stupid shells for Leena, but what if he suddenly sees Kid/Schala who has searched for him? He could remember his dream and remember his feelings. I always think it's so strange when I suddenly remember something of my early childhood and forget it after that, also when I remember dreams. Serge could easily remember such an important dream too, and I dunno how he exactly is, but he could even have written it down so he won't forget it (I do that too).  
So, he could remember Schakid and Schakid remembers him so they could live happily ever after. So what if Schakid doesn't find him, and he just goes on with his life? This doesn't nesiccarily mean he has to marry Leena or something, he's got plenty of life to get to know more girls and marry those. Heck, he might not even marry at all.

We can only dream and speculate on this I think.

[Shadow_Dragon]

i wish they had decided to make Serge talk... Crono was allowed to be silent, since there were only 6 other characters and they all had strong personalities, but, except for in cutscenes, the dialogue in CC is decided by Character #1 and Character #2, not Norris and Glenn or w/e (so the dialogue will always be the same, except for accent, with different people), so it's hard to tell if Serge actually feels the same for Kid as she for him

[Sentenal]

its heavily implied though.