Author Topic: so getting flamed for this but...  (Read 1560 times)

grey_the_angel

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so getting flamed for this but...
« on: May 07, 2006, 01:45:23 am »
I seriously like CC more than CT. I thought it did a better job of handling its plot then CT did, and managing the actual time-space aspect than CC.
It kinda saddens me people don't declare it a true sequal to CT, more or less because Akira's cast isn't in it, save a small part.
I'd love to have this site a little more balanced on both series (it seems kinda heavy handed onto CT) but meh, no one is will to undergo a few projects with CC.

Anyways, I'm just ranting now, so you can flame me away now.

ZeaLitY

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2006, 01:53:27 am »
More than one person holds this opinion. I have worked to make the Chrono Compendium an intelligent place completely bereft of the factionalist CC bashing that occurs elsewhere. Only a very slim minority of people who played CC feel the need to vocally bash it; they only appear to be numerous because they are outspoken compared to a silent majority of content players. They are not part of this organization.

grey_the_angel

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2006, 02:25:16 am »
More than one person holds this opinion. I have worked to make the Chrono Compendium an intelligent place completely bereft of the factionalist CC bashing that occurs elsewhere. Only a very slim minority of people who played CC feel the need to vocally bash it; they only appear to be numerous because they are outspoken compared to a silent majority of content players. They are not part of this organization.
yeah. well, for right now, having no real influence, but probably the biggest CC/CT fan around, I'm going to keep keep an eye on what I say.

I remember, I was actually banned from a thread on Gaia online for arguing that TD wasn't, as the creator thought, a lavos spawn.

and then banned again when I posted an article on how baton kaitos was so closely related to CC it wasn't funny.
his reasoning? "starting arguments and posting nonsense."
A little while ago I checked unto the thread: he was posting more off topic material then I ever did.

Ramsus

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 11:00:46 am »
Don't bother posting with the expectation of getting flamed. We have discussions here, not flame wars.

Sentenal

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 02:13:09 pm »
We don't flame here unless you disagree with Lord J Esq.

I prefer CT due to the battle system, and I think the plot was better done in CT as well.  CC just seemed to drop most of it on you at the end of the game.

CC is a good, underrated game, but CT is the second best game ever.  Kinda hard to stand up to that, unless that game is FF4.

grey_the_angel

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 02:53:31 pm »
We don't flame here unless you disagree with Lord J Esq.

I prefer CT due to the battle system, and I think the plot was better done in CT as well.  CC just seemed to drop most of it on you at the end of the game.

CC is a good, underrated game, but CT is the second best game ever.  Kinda hard to stand up to that, unless that game is FF4.
I disargee with the battle system, I think CC had a better one that work in conjuction with the stat boost system. it literally forced tatics on people, unlike CT in which you could basically mass spam whatever works. The system was way to easy to manipulate, like most FF games are.

and ff6 is the greatest ff of all time.

Magus22

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2006, 03:46:07 pm »
I disargee with the battle system, I think CC had a better one that work in conjuction with the stat boost system. it literally forced tatics on people, unlike CT in which you could basically mass spam whatever works. The system was way to easy to manipulate, like most FF games are.

and ff6 is the greatest ff of all time.

You are aware that CT was an SNES game, right?

Do you really believe that at the time, since most RPGs used that basic waiting system, would have something more suffisticated like the CC battle system? The CC battle system was unique, but I when I began a battle, I would want to quickly jump right into doing an element attack. I need more Dreamer's Sarongs for that . . .

However, it would be rather interesting if the next Chrono game were to implement the combat system of the Legaia RPG games in which you select HIGH-LOW-LEFT-RIGHT based off of the character with their current weapon and armor equipped, for multiple attacks or that creates a combination move that results in the specific combination of the directional selections involved in the battle system. The character would has a "battle gauge" whic increases every time you level up, so you can hold more combinations of attacks.

To see what I am talking about . . . go here > > http://www.us.playstation.com/content/ogs/scus-94254/site/home.html and the click on Battle System and then on Demonstration.

I'd like your feedback. Do you think this would be unique for the next Chrono game on the basis of the battle system?

grey_the_angel

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2006, 10:13:13 pm »
I disargee with the battle system, I think CC had a better one that work in conjuction with the stat boost system. it literally forced tatics on people, unlike CT in which you could basically mass spam whatever works. The system was way to easy to manipulate, like most FF games are.

and ff6 is the greatest ff of all time.

You are aware that CT was an SNES game, right?

Do you really believe that at the time, since most RPGs used that basic waiting system, would have something more suffisticated like the CC battle system? The CC battle system was unique, but I when I began a battle, I would want to quickly jump right into doing an element attack. I need more Dreamer's Sarongs for that . . .

However, it would be rather interesting if the next Chrono game were to implement the combat system of the Legaia RPG games in which you select HIGH-LOW-LEFT-RIGHT based off of the character with their current weapon and armor equipped, for multiple attacks or that creates a combination move that results in the specific combination of the directional selections involved in the battle system. The character would has a "battle gauge" whic increases every time you level up, so you can hold more combinations of attacks.

To see what I am talking about . . . go here > > http://www.us.playstation.com/content/ogs/scus-94254/site/home.html and the click on Battle System and then on Demonstration.

I'd like your feedback. Do you think this would be unique for the next Chrono game on the basis of the battle system?
yes I am aware. I think CC's more complex system showed the growth. alot of people got pissed cause they took out almost all double and triple techs, but I never really saw the point in them unless all three people had roughly the same speed, which didn't happen till near end game. (around black omen for me.)

Lord J Esq

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 11:11:03 am »
I seriously like CC more than CT. I thought it did a better job of handling its plot then CT did, and managing the actual time-space aspect than CC.
It kinda saddens me people don't declare it a true sequal to CT, more or less because Akira's cast isn't in it, save a small part.

To be honest, Chrono Cross is friggin’ awesome. It is a much more intellectual piece of work than Chrono Trigger, with a much higher art-to-entertainment ratio, riskier ideas at work, and more complex themes running throughout the storyline. Many people just don’t want to wrap their heads around something that challenging when they go to play a video game, which explains some of CC’s lower popularity. Nevertheless, to be equally honest, the game was so badly executed that most of its unpopularity is its own fault. Kato’s directing wasn’t up to snuff, and, more than anything else, this made all the other problems so much bigger. The plotline was packed into the ending chapters instead of spread out over the whole game. The gameplay wasn’t nearly tight as it could have been, which often sent me vacillating between restlessness and boredom. The 44-recruitable characters gambit was a bold idea that needed to happen sooner or later in mainstream RPGs, but some 40 of those characters were about as interesting as dirt.

The game was either half-baked or overcooked. Either they spent not enough time developing it, or they second-guessed themselves straight into the ground. The difference between an “almost there” game and a masterpiece is as stark as the difference between a smooth rock and a polished mirror. Whenever I think of Chrono Cross, I think of a game that wasted a lot of potential. Be that as it may, I’m a big fan and top supporter of the game, and what ZeaLitY said is true: The Compendium “knows better” than to dismiss this game or flame its fans. With the player’s help and imagination, and patience, it is an endearing game that is a well-intentioned sequel to its predecessors.

I'd love to have this site a little more balanced on both series (it seems kinda heavy handed onto CT) but meh, no one is will to undergo a few projects with CC.

Nobody has picked up on this yet. I think it’s a great idea, but sadly it seems to be one of the sort that people always leave for “somebody else” to pick up—although Crimson Echoes is a notable exception, as it is as concerned with Chrono Cross as Chrono Trigger. But for lack of broader fan attention, I think part of it is that a lot of us have no fucking clue as to what the Chronoverse looks like, canonically, after CC’s ending. What do the fused dimensions look like? What happened to Crono & Co., and Magus? Did Schala really wake up in Japan? It’s all so artsy that it discourages reasonable speculation. You can draw any conclusion you want out of that ending, which is too open-ended for many folks.

The aforementioned flaws in CC make fanworks difficult. You’ll see a lot of CC fan-art, but most of it is of Serge, Kid, or Lynx, and that is largely the frontier of CC fanwork today. Also, CC suffers from a lack of big-star attractions, like a Magus or a Kingdom of Zeal, to inspire the masses.

By all means, however, you and I and ZeaLitY and many others would like to see people take a greater interest in Chrono Cross fanwork. Hopefully this site as it matures will become a garden spot for that. But in the greater scheme of things, when it comes to the passion of fans I believe CC will always be destined to play second fiddle.

One last thing, grey angel: For my first official act as Global Moderator, I would ask you to make your signature smaller. Those two pictures take up an entire screen of vertical space. That is out of compliance with Official Compendium Rules. (Incidentally, ZeaLitY, those rules need to be updated to mention oversized sig pictures in particular, because this is one of the most frequent forum violations.)

We don't flame here unless you disagree with Lord J Esq.

But I have forsaken my evil ways. Now I only use my powers for good! Watch this: *ahem*

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Do you really believe that at the time, since most RPGs used that basic waiting system, would have something more suffisticated like the CC battle system? The CC battle system was unique, but I when I began a battle, I would want to quickly jump right into doing an element attack. I need more Dreamer's Sarongs for that . . .

However, it would be rather interesting if the next Chrono game were to implement the combat system of the Legaia RPG games in which you select HIGH-LOW-LEFT-RIGHT based off of the character with their current weapon and armor equipped, for multiple attacks or that creates a combination move that results in the specific combination of the directional selections involved in the battle system. The character would has a "battle gauge" whic increases every time you level up, so you can hold more combinations of attacks.

When it comes to battle systems, I’m going to go with Henry Ford:

Quote from: Henry Ford
If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a better horse.

I have seen so many different battle engine innovations, and so many different concepts for the theme, so many of which were immensely satisfying, that the only conclusion I can confidently draw is, where combat-based video games are concerned, “battle engines” may be practically as fundamental as plotlines and characterization. To say we want the next game to use an old system, is perhaps missing the point.

V_Translanka

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2006, 05:13:18 pm »
Both games are good. Trigger is great though...

I'd like to state that NEITHER games were hard and comparing their difficulty levels is stupid. Cross's battle system was too overloaded. There were too many things in it that you didn't need to pay attention too. It was all flash and no substance. Trigger was a very basic, classic battle system because, well, it's a very basic, classic game.

As for the storylines, I think that Trigger did well in it. Cross has a good storyline that can be confusing at times and is also very speculative. Many times it feels as though you have to play through it more than once just to understand what exactly happened and who is to blame...But that can be a good thing. I felt that the main theme was a little static at times, but it felt ok anyways. It's also a little hard to take that most of everything is explained only right at the end...But the truth is that w/o Trigger Cross would make less sense.

The one thing that has always made me think less of Cross and is the only way I would think of Cross as "not being a true sequal" (which, of course, is utter rubbish) is the character development.

As for the music, I think that Cross has as wonderful a soundtrack as Trigger, but that it lacks Trigger's scope and variety. Both are good, but there are simply more outstanding and all-around different sounding tracks in Trigger.

Trigger is a 9 where Cross is a 7.5.

Lord J Esq

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 12:47:51 am »
As for the music, I think that Cross has as wonderful a soundtrack as Trigger, but that it lacks Trigger's scope and variety. Both are good, but there are simply more outstanding and all-around different sounding tracks in Trigger.

The test of time has really deepened my respect for the Chrono Cross soundtrack. Without a doubt it is the game's greatest strength. And although you're right about Chrono Trigger's soundtrack covering more genres, the fact that CC has a more unified musical identity is, artistically speaking--and in my personal opinion--a considerable advantage. CC's soundtrack conveys an overall mood, one of sadness and serenity, and joy, which tells the story in music rather than words or images. Radical Dreamers also demonstrates this power of thematic unity of the pieces in a soundtrack, singlehandedly elevating a very minimalist game into a rewarding experience. In comparison, CT's music has a hard time combining like that, despite the excellence and appropriateness of its pieces on the individual level. All of the Chrono games have had stupendous soundtracks, and which one you enjoy the most swings on your personal tastes, but CC's soundtrack is definitely a more mature work than CT's.

Quote from: V_Translanka
Trigger is a 9 where Cross is a 7.5.

If Chrono Trigger is only worth a 9, then what the devil is worth a 10? =P

Truly, I strongly dislike Henry Ford for a number of reasons, one of the many being that he didn't really invent the car--he introduced mass production.

You're right: I've got some not-nice things to say about Ford, myself. We all know he had is faults and failings, and some pretty disgusting prejudices. But his industrial innovations, including the Model-T, steered us on the course for a vast improvement in our quality of life, and helped define the twentieth century. Plus, he paid his workers a higher wage and was one of the first major captains of industry to recognize the importance of treating human labor as, well, human. As a liberal, I have to give him credit for that.

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I don't really like LJ either (thank goodness you took away that no-flaming-unless-you-disagree-with-LJ rule!).

"LJ" is "Josh," then? There never was such a rule! Sentenal just never much cared for my ability and willingness (in the past) to argue with him beyond any hope of him getting away with his right-wing nuttery.

Quote from: nobody
However, I do like Nintendo somewhat, at least better than Sony.  This is a recent quote from Nintendo's Satoru Iwata:

"[Wii] was unimaginable for them... And because it was unimaginable, they could not say that they wanted it. If you are simply listening to requests from the customer, you can satisfy their needs, but you can never surprise them."

I hope you're right. I am worried that the "Philosophy of Wii" may be lost on the glomgraphic (sic) masses. Nintendo has had two failed consoles in a role, and, "war chest" or not, I've got to wonder how much longer they can last in the hardware business without a big success in the near future. I'm from the 16-bit era, so it's no surprise that I am a Nintendo loyalist, and I would like nothing more than their "revolution" to succeed, but my inner skeptic is quite pragmatic on this point: I will believe it when I see it.

ZeaLitY

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 01:58:15 am »
The article "The Difference Between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross" needs to be written, and I'm inclined to do it soon. Before the Compendium, a curious Chrono fan only knew as much as his curiosity afforded. Discussions were lost to forum pruning or sites going down, and no sum of fan discussion was really achieved. With the Chrono Compendium's more permanent store of analysis, that has changed. Nowadays, the average joe knows much, such as the fact that Guile was going to be Magus during Cross's development, but that this was phased out. The last thing the Chrono Compendium really hasn't covered with something etched in stone is the stupid factionalist Cross hating controversy, and I say, let us knock down this last idol to finish building our age of enlightenment. I think the feature will go:

*Introduction
*Clarification and dismissal of the Cross-hating flamers before serious presentation
*Flaws
*Reaction to flaws
*Strong points
*Comparison with Trigger (Cross's more mature themes and styles hindered by bad directing versus the raw but simple adventure of Trigger)
*Conclusion with brief comparison to Trigger and display of gamerankings / rottentomatoes scores for both games, which are only a couple points off (both games ranking in the 90's).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 02:00:29 am by ZeaLitY »

grey_the_angel

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 02:12:59 am »
The article "The Difference Between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross" needs to be written, and I'm inclined to do it soon. Before the Compendium, a curious Chrono fan only knew as much as his curiosity afforded. Discussions were lost to forum pruning or sites going down, and no sum of fan discussion was really achieved. With the Chrono Compendium's more permanent store of analysis, that has changed. Nowadays, the average joe knows much, such as the fact that Guile was going to be Magus during Cross's development, but that this was phased out. The last thing the Chrono Compendium really hasn't covered with something etched in stone is the stupid factionalist Cross hating controversy, and I say, let us knock down this last idol to finish building our age of enlightenment. I think the feature will go:

*Introduction
*Clarification and dismissal of the Cross-hating flamers before serious presentation
*Flaws
*Reaction to flaws
*Strong points
*Comparison with Trigger (Cross's more mature themes and styles hindered by bad directing versus the raw but simple adventure of Trigger)
*Conclusion with brief comparison to Trigger and display of gamerankings / rottentomatoes scores for both games, which are only a couple points off (both games ranking in the 90's).
I'd do it, but I have no real idea where to grab any additional information with posting somethat that won't get my ass flamed for asking.

V_Translanka

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Re: so getting flamed for this but...
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2006, 05:07:11 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
If Chrono Trigger is only worth a 9, then what the devil is worth a 10? =P

Nobody's perfect and since people make games, nobody's game can be perfect. I put Trigger on the tops of my RPG list, but I don't think any RPG will ever be a "perfect 10".

As for "The Difference Between Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross"...That seems like it would be a big project, possibly needing it's own forum...It's a lot of ground to cover and I think everyone should be involved in creating it. I mean, it's something very easy to be bias about...and we might as well throw in Radical Dreamers while we're at it? or whatever...