Choras Ruins [Finalized]

[ZeaLitY]

What is Choras, politically?

Choras-Kingdom Theory
Knuck

In my opinion it looks like Choras was a kingdom like Guardia a long time before Guardia existed (before 1AD).

Support

Ybrik Metaknight: I think that Choras probably was some sort of kingdom or some sort of aristocracy and that those ruins were the castle or manor that the ruler or baron lived in.

ZeaLitY: In the Pre-Release, the ruins contained a throne room.

~

Choras-Vassal Theory
ZeaLitY

The mayor of Choras remarks that "the knight Cyrus fell while protecting our Kingdom from Magus," while an old woman labels Cyrus the "town's guardian angel." I hold that according to the Choras-Kingdom Theory, Choras was originally its own sovereign state, but later acquiesed to Guardia, as demonstrated by the the above remarks.

~

Why did Choras fall into ruin?

Mystic-Destruction Theory
Knuck

[The Mystics ravaged the Northern Ruins]

Support

Daeth: Maybe it was a place that Magus wrecked while building up the Mystic army, just to train his magic powers, because I don't see anyone else at that time able to travel over seas other than him and his flying powers, and its a haunted place...

Natural-Erosion Theory
ZeaLitY

I simply assert that the Ruins eroded with time. Drawing from the Choras-Vassal theory, perhaps when Choras became a province of Guardia, its ruling house was abandoned and left to the elements.

~

Is Cyrus from Choras?

Knight-Choras Theory
ZeaLitY

I propose that Cyrus is from Choras, considering that the mayor of Choras remarks that "the knight Cyrus fell while protecting our Kingdom from Magus," and an old woman labels Cyrus the "town's guardian angel." Cyrus simply would have ventured to Guardia to achieve knighthood. Judging from this, I hold that Glenn is also from that location; additionally, Frog buries Cyrus in Choras.

Refutation

ZeaLitY: Much of the flashbacks occur on Zenan continent, however, and some predate Cyrus's entrance into knighthood. He contemplates the future on Zenan bridge, while the battle with the Frog King appears to take place in the Cursed Woods. Lastly, Cyrus died on Zenan; he thus was not directly protecting Choras, and was closer to Guardia at the time.

[GrayLensman]

Is Cyrus from Choras?

Knight-Choras Theory
ZeaLitY

I propose that Cyrus is from Choras, considering that the mayor of Choras remarks that "the knight Cyrus fell while protecting our Kingdom from Magus," and an old woman labels Cyrus the "town's guardian angel." Cyrus simply would have ventured to Guardia to achieve knighthood. Judging from this, I hold that Glenn is also from that location; additionally, Frog buries Cyrus in Choras.

Refutation

ZeaLitY: Much of the flashbacks occur on Zenan continent, however, and some predate Cyrus's entrance into knighthood. He contemplates the future on Zenan bridge, while the battle with the Frog King appears to take place in the Cursed Woods. Lastly, Cyrus died on Zenan; he thus was not directly protecting Choras, and was closer to Guardia at the time.

The battle with the Frog King and the flashback to Glenn's childhood (“You’re a marshmallow, Glenn”) take place on the Guardia Forest map, although they may not necessarily take place there.  I think it is clear that Cyrus and Glenn have been friends since childhood.  Cyrus’ ruminations on Zenan bridge only show that he visited Guardia before deciding to become a Knight.  Cyrus and Glenn could have left Choras in search of adventure before then.  Also, Magus and his mystic legions threatened all humanity.  In fighting Magus, Cyrus was defending the people of Choras, whatever their political affiliation may be.

Lastly, sea travel was definitely possible in 600 AD.  The Knights of the Round Table had no trouble reaching the Giant’s Claw island to retrieve the Rainbow Shell.

[Akuma]

I think Choras used to be a kingdom but before 1 AD, and the building probably became some kind of mercenary base or orphange around the 500's A.D.

And Cyrus did protect Choras from the mystics in at least one battle. Could this be the same battle that Slash was making a reference to during his encounter with Frog in Magus' castle?

This is how I view it, each of Magus' 3 henchmen get there own continent. Ozzie gets Northern Zenan, Flea gets Southern Zenan and Slash gets Choras. The only one that is not speculation is Ozzie.

Anyways, we know Magus' troops destroyed Fiona's forest, most likely Flea was with the troops who did this and he used a fire spell. And it seems Frog only moved to the Porre area after he was turned into a Frog so it would make perfect sense for him never to have met Flea.

Anyways back on the subject of the Choras building. I mean if the mystics really did destroy it only a couple years before 590 A.D. how come nobody seems to remember? I think it's been destroyed since 1 A.D. and it's been either a mercenary hideout or orphange and Cyrus lived there.

Anyways Slash probably made an attack against Choras and Glenn and Cyrus fought him off.

And as said in other posts, boat existed for sure in 600 A.D. as Guardia used them to get the Rainbow Shell so the question of traveling between continents is for sure.

We know that the war against Magus was going on for some time before 590 A.D. But the only battle we know happened for sure before 590 A.D. is Cyrus and Glenn vs. Slash.

EDIT: Even if the burning of Fiona's Forest took place while Frog was living near Porre, he probably still wouldn't have done anything as it seems Magus' troops never made it as far down as Porre.

EDIT 2: One more thing, I don't think Glenn was born in Choras, but when Cyrus moved to Zenan for whatever reason and made frequent trips from either Porre, Truce or Dorino to Guardia Castle. He probably met Glenn on one of these trips, or Glenn could've very well been his neighbor's kid or something.

[V_Translanka]

Didn't the Mystics destroy Fiona's Forest with those Sand creatures?

[chronotriggerfreak]

It seems to me that, while being closely tied because they are both human settlements, Choras is a lot more distant both geographically and politically from Guardia than Porre is. That is, Choras is likely to be its own state, and not merely an overseas province.

I could not pretend to prove what may have caused Choras's downfall, but Choras seems to have been a grander kingdom at some point. Since its power dwindled, however, it seems to have turned more into a simple communal society - a commonwealth is probably the closest terms. This is evidenced by an Elder, the figure of which seems to be supreme in most other instances within the game (prehistoric tribes, domes in the future), whereas Porre is limited to a Mayor, suggesting a superior hierarchy (King Guardia, more specifically), and also as a lack of references to being under Guardian control, whereas in Porre we have enough to suggest that Porre is, indeed, some sort of Guardian province.

As to the question of Cyrus, it seems to me that Choras, appearing to have lost its military and political might already in 600 A.D., would have trusted all its able-bodied fighters to the guidance of the stronger Kingdom of Guardia, and as such any of its young men would have been shipped off to be trained there. But, accepting this as the likely situation, it would not seem likely that Glenn came from Choras; as Cyrus puts it, he's a marshmallow, and it's doubtful he would have been considered useful as a soldier and never have been thought worthy of being enlisted from Choras overseas. But Cyrus seems to be popular in general - probably the best foreign enlistee in the army - and as such would earn quite a few young admirers. Glenn may have been closer to Cyrus than this, but fanboy is probably the best term for him nonetheless.

This is just what I always thought, anyhow - there's little proof for any situation. The only reason I bothered to mention these thoughts is because this is the way my world is organized in Into the Dream, and I thought I'd back it up as best I could. I was too far into it before I realized that the only way to back up any of these positions is, really, personal preference.

EDIT: Oh yeah. Wouldn't any fight against the Mystics, really, be a fight for humans in general? I mean, even fighting under the army of Guardia, any soldier joining the struggle against Magus would really be working to save both Guardia and Choras - you know that generic "save all of humanity" thing.

[Faulce]

I think its just an old kingdom that was replaced by Guardia at some point.  I doubt that the Mystics destroyed it because people are living there calmly.  They dont say anything about being invaded.  And before its refered to as the Hero's Grave, its called the Northern Ruins.  Although the crater in 65 mil B.C. was called the Lair Ruins, i think this time around it refers to something pretty old.
OR
It was an old Mystic castle.  The place is pretty dim and it contains ghosts that look like the fony knights controlled by Yakre XIII in 1000A.D.  Perhaps that was the place where Cyrus's knightly skills shone and what made him knight captian.

[ZeaLitY]

Note: The Northern Ruins originally contained a throne, as seen in the Prerelease.

[ZeaLitY]

Inquiry

Are Frog and Cyrus natives of Choras? The mayor of Choras remarks that "the knight Cyrus fell while protecting our Kingdom from Magus," and an old woman labels Cyrus the "town's guardian angel."

Theories

Yes, They Are

The mayor of Choras remarks that "the knight Cyrus fell while protecting our Kingdom from Magus," and an old woman labels Cyrus the "town's guardian angel." The battle with the Frog King and the flashback to Glenn's childhood (You're a marshmallow, Glenn) take place on the Guardia Forest map, although they may not necessarily take place there. I think it is clear that Cyrus and Glenn have been friends since childhood. Cyrus's ruminations on Zenan bridge only show that he visited Guardia before deciding to become a Knight. Cyrus and Glenn could have left Choras in search of adventure before then. Also, Magus and his mystic legions threatened all humanity. In fighting Magus, Cyrus was defending the people of Choras, whatever their political affiliation may be. Lastly, Cyrus is buried in the Northern Ruins rather than on the continent of Zenan.

Note that this could be fact, but no direct statement on the matter exists in the game, precluding this entry from appearing under Common Questions or simply on their biography pages.

[FaustWolf]

Necromancy FTW!

I was just reading through the Compendium's comprehensive script that examines the Woolsey Script and its Japanese counterpart in parallel, and the line:

 [Choras Mayor, 600AD]
   A Hero's grave is to the north.
   400 years ago, the knight Cyrus fell
   while protecting our Kingdom from
   Magus.

...appared as follows in the Japanese version:

[Choras Mayor, 600AD]
   North of this town is the Hero's Tomb.
   It's the place where the Hero Cyrus-sama, who
   challenged Magus to combat unaided in an
   attempt to save Guardia Kingdom, sleeps.

The translation difference doesn't refute the Choras-Vassal theory in any way, but I think it may throw Choras' political status back into question. I always thought it odd that Choras, being a protectorate of Guardia, would be unscathed by the Magus' campaign against Guardia.

Is it possible that Choras and Medina had created some pact whereby Choras would not maintain a standing army? Nevertheless, in violation of those terms it apparently smuggled people like Cyrus to Guardia to participate in the war (or they went of their own volition).

[Chrono'99]

Necromancy FTW!

I was just reading through the Compendium's comprehensive script that examines the Woolsey Script and its Japanese counterpart in parallel, and the line:

 [Choras Mayor, 600AD]
   A Hero's grave is to the north.
   400 years ago, the knight Cyrus fell
   while protecting our Kingdom from
   Magus.

...appared as follows in the Japanese version:

[Choras Mayor, 600AD]
   North of this town is the Hero's Tomb.
   It's the place where the Hero Cyrus-sama, who
   challenged Magus to combat unaided in an
   attempt to save Guardia Kingdom, sleeps.

The translation difference doesn't refute the Choras-Vassal theory in any way, but I think it may throw Choras' political status back into question. I always thought it odd that Choras, being a protectorate of Guardia, would be unscathed by the Magus' campaign against Guardia.

Is it possible that Choras and Medina had created some pact whereby Choras would not maintain a standing army? Nevertheless, in violation of those terms it apparently smuggled people like Cyrus to Guardia to participate in the war (or they went of their own volition).

Interesting...It's unclear what the origin of the Mystic War is though. One of the theories is that Mystics once lived on the Zenan continent, since Ozzie is shown at Truce Canyon in the Janus flashback, and Yakra lived in the western forest before humans built the Cathedral. Perhaps the Mystics focus on attacking Zenan because they want to reconquer the area, or for revenge, and they don't really care about Choras?

Also, isn't the Japanese language very prone to vagueness and implicity concerning pronouns? Perhaps the Mayor says "Guardia Kingdom" but does really mean "our Guardia Kingdom". It's probably difficult to tell I guess...

[FaustWolf]

Ah, I've always liked the idea of the Mystics having been pushed off their land by the Guardians. Brings a nice Israeli/Palestinian overtone to the conflict.

Let's see how the line reads in CT:DS now, and that should solve things hopefully.

[Thought]

Ah, I've always liked the idea of the Mystics having been pushed off their land by the Guardians. Brings a nice Israeli/Palestinian overtone to the conflict.

Which one is which, though?

[yujinishuge]

I can't believe we have this debate... How can Guardia even be a kingdom when it's basically a town and a castle with less than 50 citizens.  Oh, are we counting the other 25 homeless people on the fairgrounds?

[yujinishuge]

What happened to Dorino?  That's what I'd like to know.

[Dark Serge]

You can't really rely on the scale of the world in CT. Try flying upwards with the Epoch. In 3 seconds you'll be back at the beginning. Wow, so that was the entire planet?

Don't let the small size delude you. Guardia probably has over 100 citizens, but why put in 100 NPC's that have nothing interesting to say?

Chrono Cross did much better in this regard, imo. Also because you weren't playing on an entire planet, but on a archipelago. And travelling by boat made the world feel pretty huge.