Author Topic: Guardia Royal Line Paradox  (Read 18600 times)

Chrono'99

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2004, 04:50:40 pm »
hmm, oh. So now this is not just the Marle/Ayla paradox, but also the Marle/Ayla/Kings Guardia/Doan paradox? it's getting tough :o

Leebot

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2004, 10:00:48 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
hmm, oh. So now this is not just the Marle/Ayla paradox, but also the Marle/Ayla/Kings Guardia/Doan paradox? it's getting tough :o


That's just making the title longer. Let's just call it the Marle/Ayla Paradox for simplicity sake. Or maybe the Guardia Line Paradox?

GrayLensman

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2004, 12:09:35 am »
Topic titles can only be so long, so an extended version is not possible.  However, Guardia Royal Line Paradox has a nice ring to it.

Jikkuryuu

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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2004, 03:17:37 pm »
I would like to submit for your approval (amusement?) the Bill & Ted theory of time travel.
(Please bear with me as it has been a long time since I last watched it.)
At the end of a movie the villain (sp?) is about to win, but a cage falls directly over him from the roof. Bill & Ted planted it after they won and used the time machine.
Then the villain pulls out a key he left in the cage after he won and used the time machine.
Then he also grabs the spare gun (he lost his previously I believe) which he also planted after winning and using the time machine.
He fires the gun which is just a toy that makes the "Bang" flag pop out.
Bill & Ted explain that only the winner gets to use the time machine and that they planted the key and the gun.
It's a bit of a stretch and goes against the idea of Chrono Trigger and imposing one's free will upon the fabric of time, but maybe since lavos is defeated there is never any question of the Guardia Line's continuity.

(Hmm, even as I wrote this I kept coming up with more ways that it didnt fit properly. I will post it anyway in hope that it will spark something relevant in someone else's mind, but I consider it pre-post-debunked.)

ZeaLitY

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2006, 12:17:11 am »
Questions Raised:

1. Why does the Guardia Line exist after 65000000 B.C. when Ayla departs to the future with Crono's group?

Inquiry

Under the rules of Chrono Series time travel, history is not predetermined; if a person leaves for a year in the future, he will arrive in a world that has not seen him for one year's time. This is proven in the case of the Sun Stone; when the Porre mayor removes it in 1000 A.D., it no longer exists in the Sun Keep afterwards. Now, consider that Ayla is Marle's ancestor, and gave birth to the descendants who would eventually become the Guardia royal family. If Ayla leaves 65000000 B.C. on her quest with Crono to go to the future, why is history unaffected? From the point of her departure, the world's history should have progressed without Ayla, meaning the Guardia family would have never been born. The same can be said for Doan, said to be a descendant of the family from 1000 A.D. How do Ayla and the others travel through time without violating history in this manner?

Theories

Timeline Resilience Theory

GrayLensman, Leebot, whatev

Small changes made to the timeline will not have any noticeable effects if the intervening interval of time is sufficiently large. This is due to the overwhelming number of other factors involved and chaotic effects. After a geologic period of time, these small changes are simply cancelled out by the law of averages.

For example, even though Ayla was originally the ancestor of the Guardia royal line, in the timeline which existed while she is traveling through time, the present era was not noticeably changed. The Guardians had a different ancestor which had no noticeable effect after 65 million years. Doan is surviving member of the Guardia royal line in 2300 AD, even when Marle was traveling through time. After 1300 years, Marle's absence from 1000 AD had a minimal effect on the timeline. One example of where this does not apply is Queen Leene's disappearance in 600 AD, which may have eliminated Marle from the timeline.

Still, this is somewhat refuted by the fact that the Mayor of Porre does change if you give Jerky to his ancestor in 600AD. By most accounts, this is a minor change, yet the mayor is in fact changed by these events. Perhaps a better way to explain it is that the scale of the changes to the past corresponds to the scale of the changes in the future.

Examples: Having the original ancestor of Marle leave 65mil BC would end the Guardian line, but this is a very significant change, so some factor would act to preserve the timeline of the world to allow the Guardian line to come into existence. Giving Jerky to the Mayor of Porre's ancestor is a relatively small change, but because the resulting change to the timeline is also relatively small, it is allowed to happen. The rising of the Black Omen is a very significant change, but Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace is certainly not trivial.

Star Trek also uses an axiom that limits changes to the present from traveling to the past by an amount "proportional to the inverse-square of the distance traveled." This means that the further one travels into the past, the smaller the effect on the present. This can also be seen in CT; the party can easily make changes to the present from 600 AD, but can change nothing (with the exception of the Sun Stone) from 65,000,000 BC.

Alternative Ancestors

KerntheGerm, Daggart

Perhaps the 65 mil. BC ancestor is just Kino, and Ayla has nothing to do with it. Certainly, this would create a domestic problem when Ayla returns to her own time and finds that Kino has already taken or will take another tribe member as his wife. Nonetheless, the time stream would remain undisturbed.

Another simple explanation is that they're not really ancestors in the literal sence. With all the intervening years, how could they confirm that either way without some higher technology than they posess? Or, it could be relation through adoption. With so many intervening generations, its possible (likely maybe?) that one of the wives marrying into line bore a child illigitimately and hid the fact, or someone adopted.

Misconceptions

History cannot be preserved simply because Ayla "returned to prehistory and had babies after the adventure." Until Lavos is defeated, there is no "after the adventure," and on top of everything, the theme of the Chrono games is that free will exists and people can change history by unleashing their desires and passions. The series does not operate on temporal possibilities, and neither is anything "fated" to happen. When Ayla departs 65000000 B.C., she should be missing for sixty five million years, and Guardia should evaporate.

Additionally, Kino and Ayla probably did not have a baby before she left. This is evidenced in the animation ending of the Playstation version, in which the two are formally married. Kino's jealousy in the game is also indicative of a young and turbulent relationship.

ZeaLitY

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2006, 12:31:37 am »
I've decided against including some of the more tenuous ideas in my summary. Chrono'99, if you want to further develop your theories, feel free to.

AuraTwilight

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2006, 08:44:13 pm »
Can Time Traveler's Immunity protect Ayla's absence from mucking up the timeline? O_o

Sentenal

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2006, 09:24:23 pm »
Time Traveler's Immunity would protect Ayla from something, but it wouldn't protect her Children/Descenants.

Leebot

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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2006, 10:51:33 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Under the rules of Chrono Series time travel, history is not predetermined; if a person leaves for a year in the future, he will arrive in a world that has not seen him for one year's time. This is proven in the case of the Sun Stone; when the Porre mayor removes it in 1000 A.D., it no longer exists in the Sun Keep afterwards.


I'd have to contest this point. The removal of the Sun Stone isn't like the exit of a time traveler. For one thing, the Sun Stone isn't traveling through time. Its removal is simply a historical event that had nothing to do with time travel. It would be a legitimate proof if instead the Sun Stone fell through a Gate into the future and came into a future in which it didn't exist--which is the type of event we're trying to figure out here.

If you don't have any other proof for this, I would have to argue that history in the Chrono series actually is predetermined, and the Guardia Royal Line Paradox is proof of that.

Sentenal

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2006, 11:08:47 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Under the rules of Chrono Series time travel, history is not predetermined; if a person leaves for a year in the future, he will arrive in a world that has not seen him for one year's time. This is proven in the case of the Sun Stone; when the Porre mayor removes it in 1000 A.D., it no longer exists in the Sun Keep afterwards.


I'd have to contest this point. The removal of the Sun Stone isn't like the exit of a time traveler. For one thing, the Sun Stone isn't traveling through time. Its removal is simply a historical event that had nothing to do with time travel. It would be a legitimate proof if instead the Sun Stone fell through a Gate into the future and came into a future in which it didn't exist--which is the type of event we're trying to figure out here.

If you don't have any other proof for this, I would have to argue that history in the Chrono series actually is predetermined, and the Guardia Royal Line Paradox is proof of that.

Look at how the non-time traveling person would see this.  If someone time travels, the world would see it as the person disappearing for X number of years, reappearing later.  In the world's point of view, if someone of the Guardian Line leaves, it would have been like they physically disappeared, thus giving us no way for their family to continue.

I think I might have an idea about some of these Paradox, that I just came up with.  Lets take Marle and Doan first.  Lets say that after the 1000ad in Chrono Trigger, King Guardia remarried.  And produced another child.  And Doan is descended from that child.  He would technially still be Marle's descendant (I think, or close enough), and his existance wouldn't require Marle's.  Kino (and therefore Ayla) to Marle is a bit harder to explain, other than maybe Kino produced a child with someone other than Ayla.  But thats defininately not what was intended with Ayla and Kino.

ZeaLitY

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2006, 11:46:00 pm »
Ahaha! I have the answer. Belthasar departed the future to watch Project Kid in action with the Neo Epoch. And as the Chief of Chronopolis aptly describes, he was missing thereafter. This qualifies that time travelers who exit to the past are gone. Janus went to the future from 12000 B.C., and was missing afterwards too, along with the Gurus. Now, I suppose one could argue that this was predetermined, and that the Entity perhaps had some hand in involving Crono's team without significantly interrupting time.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2006, 12:03:37 am »
I think I may have come up with a way to explain this paradox.

It was stated in Chronopolis that observations of alternate time-lines were extremely volatile.  We should consider the effects of quantum mechanics rather than general relativity.  Perhaps, instead of a static sequence of events, time-lines should be considered as a set of probabilities, which are always changing.  

All possible outcomes of an event exist in superposition until something happens to "collapse the waveform".  Ayla and Marle's descendants would exist in a potential state unless they actually died, precluding the possibility of their returning to their respective time periods.

As the group time travels, Lavos exists in a potential state until the timeline collapses into the outcome where Lavos is defeated.

This might, might be another way to explain Marle's disappearance.  When Crono approached Marle, he collapsed Marle's potential outcome to where she didn't exist.  Rescuing Queen Leene, and observing the site of Marle disappearance, shifted the time-line again.  I'm not sure how this would jive with TTI.  A time traveller's personal timeline is not affected by cause and effect, but could a traveller's existence just "collapse" because such a time-line is more stable?  Or rather, Marle's personal timeline was protected, but Crono shifted the rest of the timelime to a different outcome, leaving Marle stranded in the DBT.

AuraTwilight

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2006, 07:30:51 pm »
._.

Entity Theory. Get your groans out now.

If we are to believe that the Entity caused Marle to stop existing to encourage Crono to get his quest going, is it also possible the Entity could protect the Party's absence from changing the timeline so they don't get distracted from the Lavos quest by fixing their own absences and being counterproductive?

Sentenal

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2006, 09:22:38 pm »
I don't personally like that idea, Grey.

Another idea about the Guardians being perserved, even when Ayla time traveled:  In the original timeline, Ayla and Kino would have probably still gotten together, and produced offspring, who would later become the Guardian Royal Family.  What if that in a generation between Kino/Ayla and the Guardians of 600, [on the original timeline] who time traveled to a point in time, but then returned.  This would give him/her Time Traveler's Immunity, thus freeing him/her from his/her temporal foundation of Ayla/Kino.  And then the Guardians would be decsended from him/her.  That works, I think.  However, the biggest problem with that is that there is absolutly no proof whatsoever for it, and its just an idea trying to solve a problem.

Chrono'99

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2006, 06:14:44 am »
Kino might have came to prehistory by time traveling since he was found near the Mystic Mts Gate, but I guess it doesn't help in solving the problem.

I once proposed the idea that maybe the guy who founded Guardia (in 1 A.D.) came to power thanks to possessing the Frozen Flame, and that maybe the flame somehow gave him Time Traveler Immunity among other mysterious powers. This is very farfetched though, it's more fanfic material (or CT:Crimson Echoes :roll: ) than a real theory.