Author Topic: Guardia Royal Line Paradox  (Read 18606 times)

Radox Redux

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2007, 07:03:52 pm »
Yes, 'Goddidit' arguments are quite cheap. Never-the-less, in the case of CT, it is the 'God' (Entity) that is planning these events, and as such, the god in question would have to provide a way for Crono and the gang to witness Lavos and his wrecked future. I'm afraid you're looking far too deep into it, we already know that the majority of Trigger's events were thanks to the entity, this is merely a theoretical extension of that thinking. The theory itself (time clone placeholders) is quite a simple way to explain how it could achieve these ends.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 07:05:57 pm by Radox Redux »

stenir

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2007, 03:25:20 pm »
Since this is my first post here at Chrono Compendium, I hope everybody at least thinks about my theories. I haven't had a chance to get reading on the Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel, so if my thought violates any statements made in there, all I can say is sorry.

I only have two thoughts on this topic, and if there are any problems with them, please let me know. I only just thought of these after reading this topic.

Theory:
Although I can't remember what topic(s) it was under, many times I've seen reference to Back to the Future (BTTF) tactics for time travel. That, in and of itself, should answer this problem. The timeline has just not caught up yet. Think of it this way: When Marty pushes his father out of the way of the car, theoretically, he should no longer exist. The moment his father doesn't get hit, his father and mother don't meet, they don't get married, and they don't have kids.

Same effect happens here: Marle arrives in the past, the guards find her, the search is called off. Following the thought that the moment the change is made, Marle should not exist, then the moment that the search is called off, *poof*.

Unfortunately, in neither case does it happen that way. It takes a week in BTTF for Marty's mess-up to change 30 years of history. Just using that math, it should take about 93 days for Marle to disappear. Granted, it takes a few hours. So, this shows that time alteration is not an instantaneous change. So, for 65 million years, an alteration just for 65 million years would take just over 113 1/2 years. Even going at a rate of 100 years every hour, that would still be 74 years.

So, it is extremely unlikely, following this theory, that the cast would ever see the alteration.

Now for the extension to the theory, i.e., my second thought.

The Extension
Assuming that the above theory is true, the time it takes for the alteration to occur may be extended. The main thought I had was that there would be so many permutations due to the "no-longer-existing" Marle or Marty (similiar names...hmmm) that the "Entity" might not know exactly what would happen. As we all know, timelines have to be pretty much 100% stable to exist correctly, and if you have one timeline like Chrono Trigger appeared to have, then a stable timeline would not have 600 A.D. from the "existing Marle" and the 1000 A.D. from the "non-existing Marle". Perhaps Time has to determine the entire timeline from that alteration to the End of Time, when the alteration would be a moot point. Once Time has figured it out, then the alteration would take place.

This may or may not extend out from my theory above. In all manner of thinking, this could be its own theory. Perhaps the reason Marle does not immediately disappear from existence the moment that the search is called off is due to time trying to figure out what the heck is going to happen to the timeline.


After thought:
Then again, it would be interesting if Marle didn't exist and the world altered so drastically that in 1999 A.D. the population of the world was more advanced than in the game and were able to destroy Lavos outright.

Just think if Marle learned of that one. Her existence allowed Lavos to destroy the world.

Man, that would suck.

dankun

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2007, 11:14:21 pm »
Hehehe.... I think I finally got this one figured out! :D

Okay, bear with me for a second here. I've had this theory laying around for a while now, never having posted it because of my own personal issues (lack of self confidence) and not wanting to create a new topic for it.

I developed the theory trying to use only as much proof of actual in-game evidence to explain this paradox, as opposed to the rest of them based mostly on other assumptions (like using the entity to explain everything); therefore making some of them seem as something that is not really convincing enough, since they don't make proper use of much evidence, to fully explain or give us a reason as to why they are to be believed in the first place.

First of all, consider the following part of the script concerning the Moonlight Parade ending:

Marle: You're my distant ancestor.
So you'd better have tough kids or I'll be in trouble!

Kino: Heh, Heh!
No worry. Ayla VERY strong!

Marle: Right!
(puzzled by this, she pauses for a few seconds, blinking repeatedly)

Marle: Hey... what do you mean by that?

Now for my theory, consider that Ayla is not really Marle's ancestor. In other words, she could NOT be the one who actually gave birth to the descendants who would eventually become the Guardia royal family. She simply cannot be her relative, as the paradox would come into effect, and we know that never happened, besides this is NEVER really stated in the game. So the general assumption should be, from now on, that only Kino is, which is mainly because of two reasons: 1. Kino is the one introduced as to be her kinsmen. 2. The above scenario that was quoted from the game, DOES make one raise the question that Marle asked Kino, and never got an answer for.

I guess the only reason people assumed that Ayla was to be considered also as her kinsmen is because she gets married to Kino in the playstation ending. But, other than that, the game never makes this evident in any way. Now, for some reason people don't find it strange that they don't get along very well and are very untrustworhty of each other. Ayla yells at Kino for having taken Crono's stuff (the Gate Key) because he acted out of jealousy thinking that she probably liked kim best. This clearly demonstrates the nature of their relationship. They don't trust each other.

For example, like I said, in the Moonlight Parade ending, Ayla yells at Kino (yet again) for having said the above statement to Marle when she mentioned that she would be in trouble if they didn't have strong children. It seems, that Kino's comment was more focused towards the word 'trouble' than 'kids' and answers her that way, as if to say something about their own problems. Ayla then calls him a 'dummie' and immediately prones to take off to their time (as if to shut him up), before he says something 'stupid' (anything else) to Marle that's none of her businesss. Like for instance something about their personal relationship and what it exactly involves?

So if you take into consideration all of this information, you can get a very plausible answer to this paradox. And the answer (if you follow the Ockam's Razor Principle) is this: Kino, being the real ancestor to the Guardia Royal Line, was able to time travel to 1000 A.D. to the Moonlight Parade Ending, because he had already fathered a child in his time period (who knows, perhaps during the time that Ayla was gone for the adventure with the team), and therefore not creating any Time Paradox in doing so.

P. S. I realize that there already is a theory called Alternative Ancestors by KerntheGerm & Daggart that tries to explain this, but doesn't really go into any in-game evidence or details that could demonstrate this further.

alpha

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2007, 04:21:56 pm »
thought on this whole matter is as such it can be assumed that time will continue on as though the person removed from time was never removed from time unless that person does not return before preset times and events would take place. ((the back to the future effect with marty's girl visiting herself in the future)) so ayla could be marles ancestor as long as she returns to her own time before history has her children being born. also. Because of the way the time travelers immunity is set up they remove themselves from cause and effect so the statement Bacause ayla left she never started the guardia line is false

DMagusEdwards

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2007, 11:01:17 pm »
I always thought Kino got it on with another Ioka woman while Ayla was time-traveling...

Apococlock

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2007, 08:50:39 am »
Oh boy, this one is a doozy.

Every time they would travel to a new time period, they would therefore begin a new thread in the big-chain-of-the-universe, and the old one would either cease to exist or continue on it's own. Personally I think it would cease to exist.

For instance when you give the mayor's ancestor beef jerky for free in 600 ad, he is no longer the jerk he was, and is now the worlds greatest dad. So, what happened to the jerk who wouldn't give you the sun stone? He either ceased to exist and that thread was destroyed, or he continued to exist in some alternate dimension. So whenever they would travel to a different era, the dimension they were in would cease to exist, right? This way their absence could be noticed, but they'd never know about it.

Or another idea, they do all end up in their original times in the end, perhaps that is predetermined by the planet, and figured in to how the time line goes. To someone who would be watching them come and go from Leene square, wouldn't it appear that they would be coming and going every couple of minutes? Maybe not that fast, but if they do something in the past or future that takes hours for them to do, and travel back, would that time in the present be accounted for?

Bah, gotta dumb this one down to something simpler (which is never easy with time travel). Perhaps everything they did was predetermined and already done within one universe and therefore they would do it all, and continue to exist in their era. Like Alya would travel around, and go back, and it would only account to a few days. Maybe not, maybe I'm crazy.

alpha

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2007, 10:38:51 am »
need to read the encyclopedia.. TTI, time bastard theories and so on...

dankun

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2007, 03:28:19 pm »
thought on this whole matter is as such it can be assumed that time will continue on as though the person removed from time was never removed from time unless that person does not return before preset times and events would take place. ((the back to the future effect with marty's girl visiting herself in the future))

You're applying different time traveling mechanics to and from two completely different sources. Read this whole thread and you will understand why this is impossible in the Chronoverse.

so ayla could be marles ancestor as long as she returns to her own time before history has her children being born. also. Because of the way the time travelers immunity is set up they remove themselves from cause and effect so the statement Bacause ayla left she never started the guardia line is false

Actually the statement you're claiming about how she could be her ancestor as long as she returns in time to her time period is what's false. I'm not sure you quite understand what the problem at hand with this paradox is. What you're saying is that somehow, in some unexplained way, if and when a person time travels to another point in time, the effects you could exact on the time stream would all be calculated and predetermined beforehand as if you never even time traveled in the first place. That desrtoys the whole system of time traveling in the Chrono series, because it relies in making assumptions or guessing what if all other possibilites might have taken place.

Oh boy, this one is a doozy.

Every time they would travel to a new time period, they would therefore begin a new thread in the big-chain-of-the-universe, and the old one would either cease to exist or continue on it's own. Personally I think it would cease to exist.

For instance when you give the mayor's ancestor beef jerky for free in 600 ad, he is no longer the jerk he was, and is now the worlds greatest dad. So, what happened to the jerk who wouldn't give you the sun stone? He either ceased to exist and that thread was destroyed, or he continued to exist in some alternate dimension. So whenever they would travel to a different era, the dimension they were in would cease to exist, right? This way their absence could be noticed, but they'd never know about it.

What you are referring to here I believe, is what the concept of Time Traveler's Immunity was created for.
Here's a link explaining what that concept means:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html#Time_Traveler.27s_Immunity

Or another idea, they do all end up in their original times in the end, perhaps that is predetermined by the planet, and figured in to how the time line goes. To someone who would be watching them come and go from Leene square, wouldn't it appear that they would be coming and going every couple of minutes? Maybe not that fast, but if they do something in the past or future that takes hours for them to do, and travel back, would that time in the present be accounted for?

I believe that what you are referring to here is the concept of Time Error. Which has nothing to do with the problem that this paradox originates from. Here's a link that explains all about Time Error:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html#Time_Error

Bah, gotta dumb this one down to something simpler (which is never easy with time travel). Perhaps everything they did was predetermined and already done within one universe and therefore they would do it all, and continue to exist in their era. Like Alya would travel around, and go back, and it would only account to a few days. Maybe not, maybe I'm crazy.

And now you're just going at it from the perspective that the Entity must have somehow intervened in this whole matter, as if everything was already preordained by it or something. Basically, what you're saying is that events in the game all took place because that's how the Entity dictated all of them, as if the charcters didn't have any choice or say in this whatsoever. Which is ludicrous, because it would be the same thing as stripping them off of all of their free will.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 03:38:44 pm by dankun »

Apococlock

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2007, 05:34:21 pm »
Ah, yeah good point you have there, but in assuming it was indeed their choice to go into the portal, how is it possible that the world would have ended in the first place, as in why would have the year 2300 been a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Does it imply that the entity ignored it first time around? Or possibly... that Chrono and friends decided not to go into the portal originally?

Let me rephrase my original idea, I don't believe a more powerful force predetermined their actions, my idea is that in going into the gate, their following actions would be predetermined by themselves. Like some people believe the choices we make in life are made previous to our existence, and it is impossible to defy it, because it was always intended that we would do so, by ourselves. What I mean by this is since Ayla probably traveled to the future with the intension of saving the world and returning to her time, that inevitably is what would happen, unless of course she died, in which case she wouldn't be able to return, and the Guardia family would apparently vanish.

So technically speaking, the choice would actually be her own, and the time line would exist as if she had already done it all, because in a way, she already has. Right? I'll have to read those links later, thanks for the information, gotta head to work now -_-

alpha

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2007, 12:37:11 pm »
chrono time travel is confusing and anyway it goes just remmeber that it was kino they brought back from 65 mil so it is possible that ayla is not related to the guardia line in any way

dankun

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2007, 02:34:27 pm »
Ah, yeah good point you have there, but in assuming it was indeed their choice to go into the portal, how is it possible that the world would have ended in the first place, as in why would have the year 2300 been a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Does it imply that the entity ignored it first time around? Or possibly... that Chrono and friends decided not to go into the portal originally?

Everything you're referring to is covered in that article I linked you to the other day. Just read it thoroughly first, and then if you still don't understand a few things come back with more specific questions.

Let me rephrase my original idea, I don't believe a more powerful force predetermined their actions, my idea is that in going into the gate, their following actions would be predetermined by themselves. Like some people believe the choices we make in life are made previous to our existence, and it is impossible to defy it, because it was always intended that we would do so, by ourselves.

I think you're mixing up a few concepts between the two games. FATE isn't an All-knowing supreme being that was able to determine the lives of people outside of the El Nido Archipelago. The Entity is not a FATE-like kind of being that would act in a similar fashion as FATE did in Chrono Cross. And finally, Fate isn't exactly proven one way or the other in our own universe, so even though there's this possibility that everything IS set in stone and we can't do anything about it and we might think that we can, there also is the possibility that we CAN influence our own destiny.

What I mean by this is since Ayla probably traveled to the future with the intension of saving the world and returning to her time, that inevitably is what would happen, unless of course she died, in which case she wouldn't be able to return, and the Guardia family would apparently vanish.

Exactly. What if... she died? What if... she would stay behind (by accident) in The End of Time stuck for eternity? What if... everything. You see the problem now? You can't expect for Time Traveling to be as lighthearted as saying: Well, if I can't make it back to my own time, at least Time would assume I did and at some point restore me there as if nothing ever happened.

So technically speaking, the choice would actually be her own, and the time line would exist as if she had already done it all, because in a way, she already has. Right?

Again, I think you're mixing up concepts between the two games. The concept of parallel worlds or universes is something that is explained only to a certain level in Chrono Cross. The reason is not fully explained is probably because Belthasar didn't want to confuse Serge any further than he already was, and as such, he told him ONLY what he needed to hear (this includes a few lies) to understand everything.

chrono time travel is confusing

Yeah, it CAN be a little confusing. But that's what the encyclopedia here at the Compendium is for! Use it and be thankful it exists so you can clear up on some 'confusing' bits of information that have already been covered.

and anyway it goes just remmeber that it was kino they brought back from 65 mil so it is possible that ayla is not related to the guardia line in any way

Yeah, I know. I've been meaning to make an update to my original theory which would include this fact into it, as well as a few other ones I picked up.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 03:50:58 pm by dankun »

alpha

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2007, 10:38:27 am »
Quote
Exactly. What if... she died? What if... she would stay behind (by accident) in The End of Time stuck for eternity? What if... everything. You see the problem now? You can't expect for Time Traveling to be as lighthearted as saying: Well, if I can't make it back to my own time, at least Time would assume I did and at some point restore me there as if nothing ever happened.

From the game I was under the distinct impression that gaspar could have sent them through a gate with or without a gate keyso ayla would not have been stuck. on top of that Doesnt the time travelers immunity protect her own time from suffereing from her dissapearence? would'nt time itself find a "replacement" to fill the void if the unthinkable happened?

Kyronea

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2007, 01:02:18 pm »
That's not how time travel in the Chronoverse works. Things happen only when they happen...time doesn't "find a replacement" or anything silly like that. Nothing is set in stone. That's why Medina can change from a hate-filled city to a loving city. That's why Magus can be replaced by Ozzie. That's why the Porre Mayor can change from a greedy bastard to a generous man. That's why Lara's legs can go from lost in an accident to just fine.

So yes, Time Traveler's Immunity would protect Ayla. It would protect Marle. But it doesn't protect anyone else, and that's the paradox. The Algetty Elder should never be there once Ayla has joined the party, and nor should the entire Guardia kingdom have ever existed, which means the fate of Arris Dome is also altered significantly, and the future should be radically different.  Yet it's the same as it was before, and Don is still there.

So it's a paradox and a plot hole.

Zaperking

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2007, 08:24:19 pm »
Or that Ayla, from the time stream perspective, will come back.

Or did anyone ever think that the planet, that actually created these gates, possibly put the rest of time on some sort of Hiatus or some kind of barrier so that the timeline wouldn't be drastically affected by time travel. Like each 12,000BC, ,600AD, 1000AD and 2300AD are all incased in their own pocket dimension or something, so that they change, but historically in between, for example, 1000AD-2300AD, it records Marle still existing there etc.

But then again, we have to also remember that in the original timeline, the Guardia Royal Line exists still, so does that mean Marle and Crono get together regardless, or that they're always destined to time travel and fix the world ?

Kyronea

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2007, 10:25:54 pm »
That idea is a little ridiculous...it would make the affects seen on time by Chrono and the gang's actions as completely impossible because they couldn't affect anything else.