Guardia Royal Line Paradox

[GrayLensman]

Formerly: Archived Discussion from GameFAQs:  Marle and Ayla Paradox

This issue is hardly resolved, so as always feel free to continue the discussion.  These are the most relevant and insightful comments from the GameFAQs message board topic, "Time Traveling Errors."

Yes, what I'm talking about is simple. And I'll get right to the point.

When you go to 65,000,000 B.C. you can get Ayla to join your team. And if I'm not mistaking Ayla is Marle's ancestor. So how is it when Ayla joins your team and you travel to the future that King Guardia is still there?

I mean, its basically Ayla disappearing from the face of the earth for 65,000,000 years. Unless they had kids before, this would make no sense.

Now you might say its going to happen no matter what even though it hasn't really happened yet, them having kids. You might say its in the original timeline that's why. Well you can change the statue in Medina Square, can't you?


That's what I believe 2300 A.D. is, if Crono and his friends were to disappear from this world and reappear 1300 years later.
Also when Robo and Doan go back to the future to 2300 A.D. its after Lavos is defeated, so do they go to the good or bad future?

What StreetFighterAkuma has brought to light is a significant revelation. While Ayla is waiting at the End of Time, the entire time-line would be changed so that there is no Guardia royal line. For that matter, Marle could never meet Doan in 2300 AD because he would cease to exist due to her absence in 1000 AD. This has far-reaching implications for the mechanics of time travel in the Chrono universe.

The time-line is not predetermined because history can be observed to change. If Ayla warps to the future, she is in fact missing for 65 million and some odd years. Ayla is not observed to return and have children until after Lavos is defeated. Time traveler immunity has nothing to do with this.

Maybe if Ayla never came back another women would take her place in mothering those who would eventually become the Gaurdia line. We don't see any evidence of this though because by the next time period you can visit, all records andstories from cave man times are lost.

That is certainly possible, as Kino would have probably taken another wife without question as Chief of the village. Since it's so far back in the past, any small change might cause a chaos effect (or rolling snowball) of ill repercussions through time, but I believe such a wave would be constricted by

-Population reducing Ice Age
-Ayla's probable life after returning (settling down)
-Ayla's extremely short lifespan in the grand scheme of time

Timeline Resilience Theory

Small changes made to the timeline will not have any noticeable effects if the intervening interval of time is sufficiently large. This is due to the overwhelming number of other factors involved and chaotic effects. After a geologic period of time, these small changes are simply cancelled out by the law of averages.

For example, even though Ayla was originally the ancestor of the Guardia royal line, in the timeline which existed while she is traveling through time, the present era was not noticeably changed. The Guardians had a different ancestor which had no noticeable effect after 65 million years.

Doan is surviving member of the Guardia royal line in 2300 AD, even when Marle was traveling through time. After 1300 years, Marle's absence from 1000 AD had a minimal effect on the timeline.

One example of where this does not apply is Queen Leene's disappearance in 600 AD, which may have eliminated Marle from the timeline.

Still, this is somewhat refuted by the fact that the Mayor of Porre does change if you give Jerky to his ancestor in 600AD. By most accounts, this is a minor change, yet the mayor is in fact changed by these events. Perhaps a better way to explain it is that the scale of the changes to the past corresponds to the scale of the changes in the future.

Examples: Having the original ancestor of Marle leave 65mil BC would end the Guardian line, but this is a very significant change, so some factor would act to preserve the timeline of the world to allow the Guardian line to come into existence. Giving Jerky to the Mayor of Porre's ancestor is a relatively small change, but because the resulting change to the timeline is also relatively small, it is allowed to happen. The rising of the Black Omen is a very significant change, but Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace is certainly not trivial.

Perhaps the 65 mil. BC ancestor is just Kino, and Ayla has nothing to do with it. Certainly, this would create a domestic problem when Ayla returns to her own time and finds that Kino has already taken or will take another tribe member as his wife. Nonetheless, the time stream would remain undisturbed.

Also, this theory might be comparable to Ending #1 if you complete all the side quests and resurrect Crono. Well you see Robo and Doan, correct? And you see them after you already defeated Lavos. So we know it exists, but it means nothing since it's not going to happen.

So on to the point, Robo and Doan come to 1000 A.D. to join the Moonlight Parade and talk with the King. Along with some other historical figures. Well Doan and Robo also return to 2300 A.D. in a time line where Lavos is defeated. So which time line do they return to? The good or bad 2300 A.D.

If they do return to the bad one, this has some power over time traveling laws. Which my first post can somehow be compared with.

Hmmm. I wonder. Ayla, is Marle's ancestor. If Ayla died, then Marle would never have been sucked into the portal, and nothing would ever happen. I hate to bring It into this, but...this may have been planned by the Entity. If Crono and co. failed, then they never would have tried, and the Entity could use someone else to it's purpose. Perhaps it did, and Crono isn't the first one to try.

And "the entity" is nothing more then destiny, the way things are supposed to happen in time traveling.

Now, with that in mind, suppose destiny recognizes the fact that no-one other than Crono & Co. could ensure the planet's survival?

I forget who postulated it, but in real life, there's a theory that states "God" is nothing more than the collective consciousness of humanity.

Taking this into consideration, if the Entity is the collective consciousness of humanity in Chrono Trigger, wouldn't it do everything in it's power to aid them in their quest? From little changes like the Mayor becoming kinder because a stranger gave his great-great-grandmother beef jerky (or whatever) to the bigger changes, like Ayla disappearing entirely for an extended period of time - isn't it at all possible that humanity keeps the timeline pretty firm in situations where deviance would prevent Crono's birth, only to make the timeline a little more flexible where it could make the defeat of Lavos that much more likely?

After all, I'm pretty sure Crono's really the only one that matters. Nobody else would've gone to save Marle, and if that hadn't happened, nothing else would've either.

One - I understand what you're saying. And two - have you said that before? If not, I just got the weirdest sense of deja vu.

I don't pretend to understand time travel because I don't. But what I'm saying is that maybe time, in this sense, is almost a living thing (An "Entity." ) and that it is willing to remain inflexible in instances where doing otherwise would endanger it - i.e., Ayla not giving birth would keep Marle from ever being born, which would mean that Crono would never start his quest, which would mean that Lavos would never be defeated. However, the beef jerky thing - I'm only using that as an example - is relatively minor, or is, at least, relatively minor thus far. Perhaps ten thousand years from that point in time, it would have some critical influence on the timestream. But so far, all it did was aid Crono, which seems to be destiny's aim.

Alright, I have 2 theories :

1) the Dream theory

We all know Crono's adventure is the "Dream of our Planet". Let's say for example, the time Gates were to be shut down right there, in the middle of the game. Crono would just >wake< up in his house in 1000AD, so as Marle, and Ayla in 65...BC, the three able to marry whoever live their life... So, well, my point is, maybe those time-travellers have some kind of "protective status", since they travel basically between a "real world" and the "dream" of the world... hmm hope it makes any sense.

2) the Clones theory

See those clones of the party in the Ocean Palace? either they're just random stuff to make the decor scary, or they may have a real >purpose<. Like, "replacing" the party in their respective time-line, something like that... it still doesn't explain why we don't see them in the eras, but, it's something to think about, maybe...

First:
"All things are four dimensionally predeterminate, meaning that everything has already happened and their's really no way to change it. I could get into it, but take a few good physics courses and you'll none what I mean."
I've taken Relativistic Physics, Quantum Physics, Nuclear Physics, all of which were "good" physics courses, and I don't "none" (know) what you mean. Please, do "get into it", otherwise don't state such things without backing them up.

Second:
I believe I may have a theory that kinda satisfies what StreetFighterAkuma is saying.. Before I say them though, I just need to make sure we're on the same page.
- So, your question is: since the actions of characters have implications on the future (i.e: giving Jerky to the Porre Elder's wife in 600 A.D. results in their decendents being more generous), then why does the Guardia/Doan exist if you can visit them with Ayla in your party (since that would mean Ayla has been missing for millions of years)?
- And as was said, one can't claim "well because she would go back home and get pregnant later" because then there would be no reason a New Game couldn't be started with a Rainbow and high equipment/stats since technically those would also be gotten later..

If we are indeed on the same page, I have 2 theories:

- My theory is that this is a result of the time travel methods being very limited in where/which time periods one can travel to. What I mean by that is: the 3 ways Crono and gang can travel through time (Gates, Pillars, Epoch) can only go to
a.) a limited number of times (otherwise Epoch would be able to go to millions of different time periods, and there would be much more than 9 pillars) and
b.)1 scenario out of an infinite amount.
-What I mean by the latter is each of the 5 time periods you can originally go to (excluding 1999 A.D. and the End of Time) are all time periods which would have existed if Crono and company never began travelling through time.
-Once Crono and company have been to a particular time period, their actions in that period change the future (not post-Lavos future, but future from that date) only for scenarios that they have not been to.
Example:
-Crono lives in a time where Porre's Elder is greedy.
-Crono gives Jerky to his great great great grandmother (or whoever) in 600 A.D.
-When Crono travels back to 1000 A.D. he is not in the same world as he grew up in. The version of 1000 A.D. he is in now is changed, for some strange reason, whenever Crono travels from now on to 1000 A.D., he can only go to the scenario where Porre's Elder is generous.
Example 2:
-Crono, Marle and Lucca are chilling in the End of Time. Ayla (knows all about time travel and such) is waiting around in her hut in 65000000 B.C.
-They go to the Millenial Fair 1000 A.D.
-Lucca (alone) goes to 65000000 B.C. Gives Ayla the Gate Key, and tells Ayla to go 1000 A.D.
-Ayla happily obliges, and when she gets there, she sees Crono and Marle.
-If there were an error in the time-travel process, then as soon as Ayla stepped into the Gate, then past/future would have changed instantly, and Crono and Marle would disappear or be changed somehow. The reason that they don't is because Ayla (when travelling from 65000000 B.C. to the End of Time, and from there to 1000 A.D.) can't choose which scenario to go to. She can only go to the one where Crono and Marle are. Why, I don't know.

Theory 2
The Zeal/Guardia/Doan bloodline is not decendent of Ayla. She could have died when Lavos struck the world while she was battling Azala (hey, she was alone this time, so it took longer..)
Zeal/Guardia/Doan are all decendents of Kino, and Kino alone. He took over as chief when Ayla died, and thus, the male dominated society began. This is just as possible as any other theory, and it's just chance that Kino got Ayla pregnant because they had a chance to be together.

Edit

[Akuma]

Another thing to point out is after Crono gives the jerky to the mayor and he's in a whole different 1000 A.D., this small change may have effected the way Crono was raised, yet Crono doesn't gain or lose any memories.

[ZeaLitY]

Well, that's due to Time Traveler's Immunity. Even if Crono entirely obliterated his ancestors so that he was never born, he'd still exist and have memories of every timeline he had traveled through.

[Daggart]

Alright, so the issue is why Guardia continues to exist if Alya is taken out of the timeline, correct? And possibilities cannot explain it (meaning that the posibility of Alya returning to her timeline wouldn't have an affect until she actually did)

The simple explination is that they're not really ancestors in the literal sence. With all the intervening years, how could they confirm that either way without some higher technology than they posess?

Or, it could be relation through adoption. With so many intervening generations, its possible (likely maybe?) that one of the wives marrying into line bore a child illigitimately and hid the fact, or someone adopted.

Just some thoughts.

[Faulce]

I agree with Daggart.  Obviously the King from 600 A.D. is related to Marle, and maybe it is possible that she is related to Doan (he could probably trace his ancestry, being from a highly advanced technological society).  But there is no way of tracing Marle's ancestry over 65 million years.  Kino and Ayla were the "royalty" of the time, as was Doan and of course King Guardia from 600A.D., probably just some way of convincing King Guardia XXXIII that Marle and Crono were saving the past present and future from a great evil and many lesser evils instead of gettin it on

heh, Lucca sure is crafty.

Question: With all of these bumps in history created by important people leaving their time periods and supposedly erasing lineages, how would an observer from the future see this?  Would this all be a problem if the true Present was beyond 2300 A.D., perhaps a bit later when the planet actually about to die and is seeing its life flash before its eyes as Ayla put it?

[Leebot]

Aside: Ever seen Back to the Future 2? In it, the main character, Marty (played by Michael J. Fox), travels to his own future. In it, his future self and future children all exist, whom he could theoretically visit. This is similar to Marle traveling to 2300 and meeting her descendant. The paradox is, if Marty left the timestream, how does he exist in the future?

Here's a little theory of mine that can go a bit towards explaining the paradox:

Consider the mechanics of time travel (from a very simplified perspective). When a traveler decides to travel from time X to time Y, X<Y, there are two possible ways this could work:

1. The traveler leaves the timestream at X, is kept in some sort of stasis, the timestream continues naturally to Y, then the traveler reenters.

2. The traveler moves immediately from point X on the timestream to point Y, without any chance for the timestream to change. He enters the timestream as it would be if he had never traveled.

The first method may actually be feasible in the real world, with methods of stasis and such. But if it can be done by such simple methods, is it really "time travel"? It can't be used to travel to the past, as the methods in CT can. It would be possible for a system like this to exist, of course, if paradoxes like the Ayla paradox didn't act as evidence against it. The second method seems more like actual time travel, and fits in with in-game evidence (at least as far as I can see). Note that those mechanics are nowhere near complete; they differ for jumps to the past and when multiple jumps are involved.

[3Fangs 3Petals 3Feathers]

I beleive what you said is used alot in Marvel Comics (a separate world, but nonetheless full of good theories)  Unless a specific event in the past is changed, then the timestream continues.  If the event changes, then the original timestrand is 'standed' in time, while the new timestream is taken.  

If we take into account the fact that Ayla is the ancestor, then Ayla must have gotten pregnant.  Since this specific event was never changed, and Ayla later returned to her timeline, then in the future, she gave birth to Marle's ancestor.

[Leebot]

Yes, it's one of the more popular mechanics of time travel.

Aside: The other method is used often in Star Trek; whenever someone makes a voyage to the future, they find it as it would be if they had never left.

Star Trek also uses an axiom that limits changes to the present from traveling to the past by an amount "proportional to the inverse-square of the distance traveled." This means that the further one travels into the past, the smaller the effect on the present. This can also be seen in CT; the party can easily make changes to the present from 600 AD, but can change nothing (with the exception of the Sun Stone) from 65,000,000 BC.

[EscapeDummy]

Sorry my answer isn't gonna be as sophisticated as some of yours, but to everyone wondering how Time Travel works in Chrono Trigger, one "idea" of how it works could be the one from Pastwatch, by Orson Scott Card. I'll try to find the passage and enter it in here, as it may be how the developers thought of time travel.

And BTW, you should probably check out Pastwatch if you are a fan of Sci-Fi or Card.

[Green Dream]

Keep in mind that that game never really proved a relation between Ayla and Marle.  For all we know Ayla could be related to the Zeal family line.

[GrayLensman]

Marle: Please!
   Just listen to me!
   We had to...

KING: ...save the future, right?

Marle: Huh??

DOAN: You saved the future, and gave
   us hope.

KING GUARDIA: You fought Magus's
   troops, and brought peace to the
   kingdom in the year 600.

KINO: Crono beat Reptites!

Marle: Wh, what's going on here?

Marle: Lucca!
   You brought them here, didn't you?

KING GUARDIA: Our kinsmen told me all
   about your incredible mission.

Marle: Kinsmen?!
   You mean these're MY ancestors...and
   descendants?

KING: Here I was fussing about my
   kingdom, and my daughter, and you
   were saving past, present and
   future!

[Symmetry]

I'm curious -

Why is no one from Zeal brought back to that meeting?

Is there anything disproving the possibility that Marle may be somehow related to Queen Zeal, Schala, and Janus?

You would think that if a surviving relative could be found in 65,000,000 BC, one could be found in 12,000 BC.

EDIT - I guess striking against this idea is the very plot of Chrono Cross, though - in retrospect. Maybe its a thought of use to someone else.

[GrayLensman]

The Elder of Algetty is probably part of the Guardia royal line.  He has the exact same sprite as Doan, so he wouldn't have been brought to the Moonlight Parade for obvious reasons.

[Symmetry]

That would make sense.

Lazy Square should have kept that in mind and gave the Elder another sprite!

Those bastards.  

[Crono0801]

Well they do have a time machine what if Ayla just left for one day. Ayla leaves and they just return her to the day after she left. I know that doesn't solve why Marle was still there even if Ayla leaves.

i mean they leave every character in their era a day after the day they changed.

Man its hard to say what I'm thinking.