Stuff you hate

[tushantin]

Thanks Faust. I really wish we had an ignore button here though. While I'm not the kind of person who'd ignore someone, I think sometimes people just get to you. But you're right, though, and I'll take your word for it.

I'd just like to clarify one thing though. I'm a man of liberty who never ties himself to the background of tradition, but there's a reason I occasionally keep getting back to it. Every knowledge in this world is consequential and important, and much like the columnist Tarak Mehta, I have an eye for spotting good artifacts in traditions from the bad -- and when I find those good traditions to be useful for community growth and integrity I decide to share it with you folks. Just as Thought once stated, I'm the kinda guy who finds gold in the rubble of old civilizations, or perhaps the redeemer of the very dragon I slay.

And that is indeed a good quality for an ideal individual to possess.

I'm reminded of the meaning tushantin finds in the Indian bracelet ritual he spoke of earlier, where the brother swears to protect the sister -- this is something very important to him on a fundamental level, so I'm sure he would report that our criticism of it riled him up.

You mean Rakshabandhan, and it's an important ritual for a reason -- it helps the genders form a mutual pact to battle misogyny, especially since injustices are common. The ritual was created by a woman and accepted by a King with the idea that women are not only biologically weaker than men but also usually the victims of oppression. This ritual signified that sibling bond and love triumphed the hatred from the community as whole, and that the brother will do his best to protect his sister from any and every form of oppression.

Even if you think that such a sentiment is worthless in itself, let me ask you a question (if you have a sister): Many females don't undergo personal defense training, and perhaps your sister isn't interested either. Suppose you folks are taking a wonderful ride at night with your family, and suddenly a group of thugs and rapists approach your sister then. Would you or would you not protect her? Or will you stand idly and ask your sister to save herself? Wouldn't you risk your life to stop the injustice?

I don't have a sister, but I do have a few female cousins that I greatly cherish. They are like sisters to me, and hence I can understand that sentiment.

However, there is still an element of the argument that could sink in: if women are taught defensive techniques with the rigor men are in whatever culture, the outcome could be superior.

Indeed. There's something I'd like to respond with, though. I was talking to Mary yesterday (I guess you know who I'm talking about) on the phone, and at a point (just briefly) I talked about the sexism topic, the misogyny hullabaloo and how I received some contempt for my views. And she told me something that struck the same cord. Here's what she said (exactly as she said it):

Naysayers are naysayers! They're all the same. God forbid, we have plenty of them already, and they're disruptive to efficiency. But YOU don't stop. You're like a freakin' steam engine: slow at first, steady at best, then full speed ahead! Now look, all kinds of girls get picked from all kinds of places, and let's face it, we're vulnerable. But do you know what makes these thugs succeed? It's our fear, our emotional vulnerability. I appreciate how much bro and you did for me, but how long must we depend on men protecting us or saving us? When we're talking about sexual equality we're talking about girls standing toe to toe with men, and thus we need to be strong. We need to fight for ourselves. We need to stand for what we believe in, so it's our fault if we can't, not yours. You already know that, Chu, which is why I took your advice and went through that Jiu-Jitsu training. Heavens know, today I can even kick your butt so hard that you'll kiss the moons; I can be your bodyguard this time!

Haven't talked to Karen in a while, but something tells me she'd say the same thing. After all, both these girls are somehow star-crossed (not really, but one of them has a habit of stalking me, and hence my tease; and now she's bound to kick me).

That said, I'd like to say that I wouldn't even be here at the Compendium if it wasn't for Mary (she's a Chrono Cross nerd), and before I registered in, she was the one who gave me my "Springtime of Youth".

[FaustWolf]

Even if you think that such a sentiment is worthless in itself, let me ask you a question (if you have a sister): Many females don't undergo personal defense training, and perhaps your sister isn't interested either. Suppose you folks are taking a wonderful ride at night with your family, and suddenly a group of thugs and rapists approach your sister then. Would you or would you not protect her? Or will you stand idly and ask your sister to save herself? Wouldn't you risk your life to stop the injustice?

I do have a sister, and I had this conversation with her years ago, after I insisted on accompanying her and a female cousin outside at night on account of such worries. She never had any defense training, but she got seriously pissed at my paternalism and proceeded to show me how much ass-kicking she's capable despite her lack of training. It was pretty impressive -- and she's never even played as Chun-Li, or anything! I was like, "whoa."

The takeaway lesson for me was that women are considerably more capable in this area than we're raised to give them credit for, and if women also underestimate themselves, that could account for the success of some portion of attacks. Without a doubt I'd jump in in the situation you describe, but it would also be foolhardy of me to expect that I or another male is always going to be around. I think Mary has it precisely right, and I'm heartened that she's taken some martial arts!

But in any case, I can't claim to be an expert on attacks because I've never survived one, nor gotten into an in-depth conversation with anyone who has -- I'd do well to do that one day, so I can see what I'm not considering. I'm mainly going on the wisdom I find in Tolkien's adage: "Those without swords can still die upon them."


While we're on this subject, I'll add to my list of hates the attitude that women shouldn't undergo strength training, which is pretty thick in the local culture where I'm at. I don't know about Jillian Michaels' personality (and J might have an observation or two about her role in promoting The Biggest Loser, a popular reality TV/weight loss program in the US), but I see nothing unbeautiful about well-toned biceps in either sex. In this regard at least, I wish she were a role-model for more women. And men, hahaha! I can only hope to have as much muscle as she does one day!

[ZeaLitY]

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/obama-leaves-god-out-of-thanksgiving-address.html

Comments.

Look at the comments.

...

Fuck these people. Seize their assets and redistribute them for the common good. Then send them to work in my salt mines.

Fuck "God", and fuck "His" believers. Grow out of needing an imaginary fucking sky-friend.

[Syna]

The takeaway lesson for me was that women are considerably more capable in this area than we're raised to give them credit for, and if women also underestimate themselves, that could account for the success of some portion of attacks. Without a doubt I'd jump in in the situation you describe, but it would also be foolhardy of me to expect that I or another male is always going to be around. I think Mary has it precisely right, and I'm heartened that she's taken some martial arts!

Absolutely. The weakness of females is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Culture cripples women, physically and psychologically, and while men are of course generally stronger, women are capable of much more than is commonly assumed.

I experienced this quite explicitly in a martial arts setting; the girls were all regulated into a corner during sparring and given minimal attention, while they were encouraged and bolstered during activities like kata memorization (which, being dancelike, is I suppose more feminine seeming). Did my instructors mean to be discriminating? No -- in their defense, few of the females were interested in sparring, and many took pride in their katas. But given how sheepish we were about even brief displays of aggressiveness, and how quick we all were to apologize effusively to each other for any imagined injury during a bout, that cultural self-fulfilling prophecy was most assuredly at work.

While we're on this subject, I'll add to my list of hates the attitude that women shouldn't undergo strength training, which is pretty thick in the local culture where I'm at. I don't know about Jillian Michaels' personality (and J might have an observation or two about her role in promoting The Biggest Loser, a popular reality TV/weight loss program in the US), but I see nothing unbeautiful about well-toned biceps in either sex. In this regard at least, I wish she were a role-model for more women. And men, hahaha! I can only hope to have as much muscle as she does one day!

Word! Our cultural standards are generally oriented towards litheness, and I think most people don't realize how hard it is for anyone to build bodybuilder-style quantities of muscle. Gaining is hard, especially when you aren't using steroids! Unless you're into strength training for competitive reasons, you shouldn't worry about it.

Strength training has been really wonderful for me on a lot of levels. Just feeling strong makes a substantial difference in my psyche; I honestly think I never expected I'd feel strong, as a female.

[tushantin]

I experienced this quite explicitly in a martial arts setting; the girls were all regulated into a corner during sparring and given minimal attention, while they were encouraged and bolstered during activities like kata memorization (which, being dancelike, is I suppose more feminine seeming).But given how sheepish we were about even brief displays of aggressiveness, and how quick we all were to apologize effusively to each other for any imagined injury during a bout, that cultural self-fulfilling prophecy was most assuredly at work.

Gaining is hard, especially when you aren't using steroids! Unless you're into strength training for competitive reasons, you shouldn't worry about it.

Strength training has been really wonderful for me on a lot of levels. Just feeling strong makes a substantial difference in my psyche; I honestly think I never expected I'd feel strong, as a female.

It isn't as hard as you think. XD People just either rush or get bored, or even worse, lose their will. Once you get addicted, every exercise begins to pour euphoria in your mind, and you can't seem to stop yourself. It's not always "what you do" but "how you ho it" that matters.

But getting back to discrimination in Martial Arts, I'd recommend either Judo or Jiu-Jitsu, considering neither has "gender-based" requirements (you enter the ring, you fight like a warrior -- don't care who you are, man, woman, or child). Judo is a Soft-Knock martial art that, focusing on stances and grappling (you need a bit of strength), while Jiu-Jitsu works for weaker, shorter warriors because of its focus on ground-fighting and relying on hooks and tactics. While you do need to learn Kata in both (well, in Judo anyway), there's no point in learning them if you can't apply. Both are excellent sports that can be applied in self-defense effectively, and in my knowledge, every girl who has undertaken that training can pretty much kick my ass.  

Another self-defense art for close-combat (both Hard and Soft Knocks) would be Krav Maga, which combines certain elements from Muay Thai and other arts, but I'm unaware about the treatment between genders. And another, I'd recommend, is Fencing, which requires either a rapier / saber or (in common cases) a long stick.

In case you're wondering, yes. I'm a fan of Fencing tournaments.   The Epee battles, especially, are thrilling.

[Syna]

Tush, I was referring to bulky muscles, not muscles in general. Jillian Michaels has plenty of muscle, and I personally wouldn't consider her bulky. Well-- perhaps a bit borderline, but fitness is her career! You'd have to be very dedicated to amass that kind of muscle. Far more dedicated than most can afford.

Interesting points about Judo and Jiujitsu. If and when I ever get the money to devote to martial arts, I will probably start out with Krav Maga (which is supposed to be quite practical), but Jiujitsu particularly fascinates me. I have a very poor mind-body connection by nature, and it seems especially well-suited to awareness of one's movements.

[tushantin]

Tush, I was referring to bulky muscles, not muscles in general. Jillian Michaels has plenty of muscle, and I personally wouldn't consider her bulky.

Jillian has a lean build, not a bulky one; yes, there's a difference. I admire lean builds: you get almost all the goods of the bulky build, but also preserve agility.

Bulky builds, on the other hand, is a little too extreme. It's hardly ever necessary. They also tend to increase unnecessary amount of body mass, and while it grants you immeasurable strength there's a muscle-tear factor to add in. The worse side-effect I'm not fond of is that body-mass, in turn, restricts a person's flexibility, agility and dexterity. Without the three, strength training (especially for self-defense) is pointless, and bulky mass only works in body-building competitions or movies.

That said, I adore women with lean builds like Jillian!

I have a very poor mind-body connection by nature, and it seems especially well-suited to awareness of one's movements.

Yeah, it is. But if you're not used to maintaining hand-eye co-ordination and dexterity, then I'd recommend taking up other sports alongside Jiujitsu / Krav Maga. You can also take on dancing!

*extends his hand, offers Syna a rose*

It would be an honor to have you for a Salsa, senorita!

[Lord J Esq]

The weakness of females is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Culture cripples women, physically and psychologically, and while men are of course generally stronger, women are capable of much more than is commonly assumed.

Strength training has been really wonderful for me on a lot of levels. Just feeling strong makes a substantial difference in my psyche; I honestly think I never expected I'd feel strong, as a female.

I'm really glad to see more people noticing things like this. Even in the past ten years, if I can attempt to correct for my higher level of sensitivity now relative to then, these heights of awareness seemed to be firmly in the province of academics and political activists. I think, to the extent my observation is valid, we can credit the Internet for popularizing the facts and notions of the sexual equality movement to people who aren't explicitly dedicated to the cause already. (I don't know your level of involvement with the pursuit of sexual equality, Syna, so I don't know if that applies to you specifically.)

The effect is small, with respect to the number of people with higher sensitivity relative to the vast size of the total population, but distinctly apparent.

Another possibility is that I've got it backwards--that more people have thought this way for a while (though it raises the question of "Since when, and whence the change?") and the Internet simply brings to our attention this higher level of commitment than is reported in the media.

Anyhow, both of those remarks of yours are fierce keen...worth study and affirmation! The bit about feeling strong is just perhaps the most conspicuous aspect of a much bigger treasure trove: the power of learning to delight in one's own body, something that the world's major religions and most cultures have tried very hard to suppress in females. Enjoying your body, using it, understanding its abilities, extents, and sensations...that's a huge part of human identity, and crucial both for our personal development and social interaction.

[Katie Skyye]

Fuck these people. Seize their assets and redistribute them for the common good. Then send them to work in my salt mines.

Fuck "God", and fuck "His" believers. Grow out of needing an imaginary fucking sky-friend.

I understand that you are furious at how completely childish and idiotic (and ignorant and etc etc) those people are, but...

...am I even allowed to be offended at what you've said? Am I allowed to argue with the almighty Zeality, or will I get struck by lightning? Will I get laughed off of this site? I'll probably just be ignored. But it's been bothering me for a while now, even though I just tried to dismiss it. I wasn't originally going to say anything, but it just got to me more and more as time went on.
I understand that there are a lot of hate-able Christians and religious people in general, but... I mean, I'm included in "those people," as well. I don't go hitting people over the head with my beliefs especially since I don't really consider myself part of the Christian religion any more, but I do believe in God and it's really just very disturbing to hear that. Maybe you don't even care that you're seriously offending members of your site. Whatever...

...I've heard so many "there are no militant atheists" jokes, but when I read things like this it makes me wonder...

[ZeaLitY]

I don't respect religion. It doesn't enter at all into the workings of this website. But in a world in which atheists are the hated minority and I dare not come out to my family or even to potential employers, I will grant myself the one freedom to tear down the icon of oppression known as "God" on this forum.

[Katie Skyye]

I don't respect religion. It doesn't enter at all into the workings of this website. But in a world in which atheists are the hated minority and I dare not come out to my family or even to potential employers, I will grant myself the one freedom to tear down the icon of oppression known as "God" on this forum.

Fair enough. I guess. It's really not, but you're the fucking site owner and you're allowed to say whatever the fuck you want. I'll take it with a grain of salt just like I do everything else you say, no offense. I don't why this has me so upset anyway.

I guess it's because I went from, "You accept evolution and don't blindly believe everything the Bible says? You're going to hell!" to "You have faith in God and think there might be something more out there than just this life? You're crazy and should go die!" And I really enjoy being on this site, and I like most of the people here, and I understand that I'll get crap of one form or another no matter where I go, but I guess all the shit that's gone down in the Compendium lately has sort of been bothering me, and this was the last straw, maybe...

...whatever. I'm done trying to defend myself. There's really no point. I'll keep to my SPRINGTIME OF YOUTH topic and leave you guys alone.

[tushantin]

I would recommend that we leave out topics regarding religion if there is no line of negotiation and respect in either side. A conversation followed with prejudice usually leads to heated arguments (being in the line of fire, I understand it well), and our misdirected battle usually ends in friendly fire.

ZeaLitY, I know that the minority Atheists are often the target of oppression, besides the minority Sikh and Muslims, in America especially when the trigger is held is Dominionists and Fundamentalists. Atheists have every right to speak up for themselves, but Z, I'd like to point out that not all Christians or religious believers are as contemptuous as you think. We all want these Dominionists to go, but there's hardly a reason to hurt the feelings of the innocent lot. Katie, for instance, has no beef with anyone, so if not religion itself, please respect her feelings.

Katie, as you stated yourself, take it with a grain of salt. Z is a hyper-active, zealous and passionate bloke, but he is also a minority Atheist, stressed from the oppression targeted by cults akin to Jehova's Witnesses (they like to call themselves "Christians", but they're not; they're horrible, horrible people, even responsible for the vandalism of Pledge). I used to find similar circumstances offensive too when I was new, but over time I began to see their side of the story. Give the guy a break, especially in the "Stuff you hate" thread, which is probably the best place to rant your frustrations (besides the "Frustration thread"). When he says "his believers" he usually means the oppressors from the religious sides. If anything, the minority need our support to climb the stairs of liberty. I mean, tribalism sucks, right?

All in all, the Compendium is a diverse forum. While we've got people from all over the world, with different beliefs, we still have that core love, that unifying catalyst. Let's try not to break that unity, because every facet matters.

EDIT: That said, I have good news for the minority. A month ago I conversed with some Christian friends in India, and they agree that while there's nothing wrong with sharing one's faith, "stuffing it down someone's throat" is outright horrible. In essence, they're against the Dominionist nature of Christianity in America and are willing to support Atheist and minority rights if worse comes to worst (that's provided the Atheists don't commit the same mistakes as the Dominionist Christians did).

[wiz Khalifa]

Ayo whys yall piccin on Katie Skyye

Im a Rastafari and a Budhist and i used to be a satanisct fo a while...and you finna tell me and this lady not 2 talk about religion? Fucc outta here with that shit.... 

[rushingwind]

In Z's defense, it is sometimes difficult to not explode sometimes. (And trust me, if disagreeing with him made you prone to punishment, there would be far fewer people here, myself included!)

I am a very calm peacemaker. I'll make a million concessions that I don't actually want tot make sometimes, just to preserve the peace. But as an atheist myself, I know exactly where he's coming from. It was known at my last workplace that I was an atheist, and that very often made things extremely difficult for me. I complained to the company, but no one listened. I talked about it with a law student friend, and she said it probably wouldn't get anywhere in court (being that we live in the rural South). Our theater would rent out some of its auditoriums to a church early every Sunday morning (Surprisingly, this is a very common practice for theaters now, trying to make money in this economy). My boss forced me to come in at 5am some Sundays and open everything up for the church, even after telling him how terribly uncomfortable it made me feel. He took the liberty of telling the pastor that I was an atheist, and asked him if there'd be a problem with it. His response? "She won't throw anything at us, will she?"

It was supposed to be a joke, but I didn't find it funny. I was forced, upon threat of termination, to open for them many times, even after being ridiculed once because of being atheist. No one in the company cared, but if it had been the other way around (if I'd been Christian and ridiculed by an atheist), I'm sure I would have had a lot of support.

That's just a workplace example, but I've lost friends over religion. I've had religious friends who were so intent on converting me that they'd get upset and start yelling. They'd insult me, tell me about how I had the worst suffering awaiting me in hell, and everything. Eventually, when exposed to that kind of constant abuse, even a peacemaker like me will explode. The great irony in this is that I once was a evangelical Christian in the junior ministry, pursing a Bachelor's degree in Divinity. I thought, at that time, that I was oppressed, discriminated against, and attacked by non-Christians. To be frank, I had no fucking clue about reality at that time. I would soon learn.

When you see what you consider to be outrageous outbursts on the Internet by atheists, I would ask that you instead see it for what it probably is: These people are discriminated against in ways that you simply cannot concieve of, and the Internet becomes their only semi-anonymous platform to speak what's really in their hearts. Trust me, I've been there.

From our perspective, the current political climate is terrifying. We see people who are insistent on legislating Christianity into law, which in the end will make us no different than the much decried Sharia courts of the Middle East. We see science (real and proven stuff) being replaced with pseduoscience because it fits better with what the Bible says. As a geology student, I have fielded discussions from at least two people who were determined to prove to me that "flood geology" was real and true, and that "polystrate fossils" proved it. Introductory Geology 101 clearly explains why all of this is simply nonsense. But even then, explaining to them that "flood geology" was disproven by a Creationist geologist more than 100 years ago doesn't convince them. The mindbogglingly simple explanation of so-called polystrate fossils doesn't convince them. No, they come into the argument convinced they're right, and that I'm wrong, and there's nothing I can say or do to make them see the simple truth before their eyes. They cannot see the simple truth because they have "faith." They'd rather believe in a story (one that would have them believe their god has purposely tried to deceive them about the nature of the Earth and the universe) than pay attention to fact.

From our standpoint, the more people who deconvert, the better the prospects for humanity's future. Yes, even those Christians who are quiet, non-zealous, and not really bothering anyone. Religion encourages too many bad things. Mystery is supposedly good, and should be revered. Even after being an atheist for more than seven years, I only this summer finally understood why faith is such a horrible, horrible thing. It leads people to inaction, to taking incorrect actions, and more.

I know you don't know me, so you don't know what kind of a person I am. I am a very nice person. But I've had angry outbursts of my own about religion. I watched a video where people were burning witches in Kenya because of witchcraft a few weeks ago, and it disturbed me to my core. While these were clearly extremeists, they are representative of the religious mindset as a whole, as much as the more mild-mannered religious folks scream that they have nothing to do withone another. Those who do not fit into the specified religious mindset are the Enemy, and will die. For the extremeists, that translates into literal execution. For the mildly religious, that means I will suffer an eternity in Hell, the "second death." In either case, for both the mild mannered and the extremist, my fate of eternal suffering is exactly the same, and absolutely deserved. Thus, in the end, both the "polite Christians" and the extremists believe the same things, just different methods. One says, "Let God take care of it." The other says, "We'll do God's work ourselves and take care of it."

Like Z, and others here, I don't respect religion either. And until you find some distance from religion yourself, you have yet to truly appreciate how oppressive and destructive the concept of "god" has become. Before I left, I could have never imagined it.

I hope my post hasn't come off as argumentative or condescending, Katie. That's not been my intent here. I'm simply trying to provide insight into a mindset you may not be familiar with. We atheists get pushed around, harrassed, mistreated, and more, for no other reason than we are atheist. In some places, it is extremely dangerous to our lives to dare say we don't believe in god. The Internet, then, becomes about the only outlet some atheists ever get. And even then, if you speak your opinion clearly and honestly, you incur bad things as a result. People get defensive. Then tempers flare. It's all a very bad recipe.

And Tushantin: Atheists escape persecution because they keep it to themselves. That's it, unless they are born into some magical, special place somewhere I've never heard of. The silent, secret atheists are the only ones who do not become the target of oppression, anger, and mistreatment. The moment you come out as an atheist, the target is on your back forever. Obviously, it is worse in some places in the world than others.


Annnd.... Now it's off to bed with me. I'm exhausted, so I hope this post made some sense. I should have gone to bed hours ago, heh.

[tushantin]

Ayo whys yall piccin on Katie Skyye

Im a Rastafari and a Budhist and i used to be a satanisct fo a while...and you finna tell me and this lady not 2 talk about religion? Fucc outta here with that shit....  

I was trying to defend and justify both Z and Katie's point of view, because there was some misunderstanding from both sides. XD I mentioned that nobody ought to talk about religion was:
1) Nobody's gonna come to an open-minded agreement while retaining their beliefs, and hence offending each other just to defend themselves,
2) By not discussing religion, we can focus on people as individuals instead of their "holier than thou" fan-club.

Some people believe that the rotten tomatoes in either side represent their side, while some are made to believe so through no fault of their own -- an inherently tribalist and racist view -- and this fires conflict. "You *insert category here* are all the same!" <----- I hate that kind of attitude.

Also, Rastafari? Dude, you from Jamaica?  

@RushingWind: I'm sorry to hear that, RW, although I have no intention of discussing religion in this forum anymore for obvious reasons, but I'll still participate in peacemaking and establishing connections if I can.  

However, I would like to point out something crucial: The place I come from has a culture so vastly different from the Americans that, if a speak a single thing you're not familiar about, I'd get discriminated against for "being stupid". I always do. For instance, these days there is no such thing as "discrimination against religion / atheism" in my country, and even if there is it's frowned upon, simply because such tribalism only hinders social growth. We've managed to destroy this factor in such great lengths that when any Indian hears about religious discrimination in America (or any nation) the first thing they do is scoff, "Are these guys still living in the Dark Ages? And they're supposed to be 'developed nation'? Hah!" And indeed: such strife is not only pointless, but also incredibly ridiculous -- in fact, owing to my survey, religious folks in India are most likely to support American Atheists than the Dominionists and Fundamentalists, because we know that such discrimination is wrong. We even mock the integration of religion / belief / Atheism and politics, because these are elements that should not be mixed.

Secondly, I would like to point out that I'm technically an Atheist (though I have a better term than that) simply because I don't believe in personal Gods, but unlike the ones at America I'm not a victim Religious discrimination as religion amity and pluralism exist here -- even if I go to a Church and say that I'm not a believer, but so long as I'm still respectful, I'm always welcomed with open arms. In any case, the only kinds of discrimination I'm a target of are:
1) Racists: "Oi! You're from India, right? You wear a turban, right? You find cows sacred? Coz I eat cows. Does that make me a devil? Hey, do like Bollywood dancing?" 'Nuff said.
2) Radical Atheists: I personally admire Atheists, but the Radical ones are the most annoying. Though I'm a non-believer, I spontaneously have rocks thrown in my direction simply because I get along well with the religious folks.

I still remember that, as a new member in the forums years ago, I too felt offended when Z posted similar things, but in time I began to understand why they do: I began to sympathize with the minority here, especially since when I realize that there still is such a thing as "Dominionism" -- I hadn't the faintest idea then that America was still a victim of the orthodox nature of Religion. Problem is, everyone mistook their targets, and this caused further enmity.

As for your rant of "religious people can't be logical", you're misinformed: I have several Christian friends in the fields of Physics, Journalism, Programming, etc. and while they go by the code and morals in life they don't let it interfere into their business. The girl taking Physics, for one thing, is a scientific genius -- perhaps as excellent as you, and incredibly outspoken and mature for her age. Then I have a few Islamic friends, including one who took on Engineering, and is like a living encyclopedia of everything you can imagine -- including sensational history, pragmatism and forensics! Then there's a few Hindu friends who have achieved more than imaginable, one of whom constantly battles corruption and social injustices. Of course, talking about all of them will take all night.

The problem isn't religion, but actually the way people think -- it's genetic factor that influences the likelihood of survival, where it plays an important role in self-preservation. Just to confirm my theories I conducted certain experiments on lesser life-forms, particularly ants, and observing the social structure of stray dogs and bees. Lesser life-forms don't have "religion", but the same fundamental exists either way. What you're battling is "human nature", regardless of the fan-club they join, but people simply like to target "the closest thing" simply to satisfy their anxiety, and this hatred in turn breeds more frustration. Hope you find that hint useful, because I'm not going to explain this in length: Seeing with what happened to my efforts to help with "Social Reforms" thread, I'm through.

And I guess Katie is too. Beyond that, I will say nothing regarding religion-vs-atheism circumstances, nor will I state my opinions since they are  not welcome. However, seeing the direction religion and social life is going in America, I would actually agree with you on this and am willing to support the minority against oppression. But, I implore, don't target innocent folks unnecessarily.