Author Topic: Stuff you hate  (Read 196206 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #885 on: November 23, 2009, 06:52:25 pm »
But it outdid The Dark Knight's box office record. Surely, enough to warrant hatred? Has your time away from the Alfador Inquisition blunted your capacity for ire?

I'm going to go to hold a candlelight vigil for Batman. You attracted a wonderful audience of all ages, Caped Crusader, but you were nothing against an army of teenage girls who feel comfortable with stalking and extreme gender roles. I've seen the first movie to qualify my own opinion, and it is shit.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 06:53:59 pm by ZeaLitY »

Sajainta

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #886 on: November 23, 2009, 07:09:32 pm »
Maybe some or all of the people here who hate Twilight have made their judgments for valid reasons having nothing to do with the anti-populist backlash, in which case my disgust would be partially or entirely unfounded.

Fair enough?

Fair.  The "It's popular, so it must be rubbish" mentality annoys me too.  But I don't dislike Twilight because it's popular or because of its rabid fans--I dislike it because I find its message to be sickening.

FaustWolf

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #887 on: November 23, 2009, 09:24:36 pm »
Damn though, did you guys and gals see that the 17-year-old dude who plays the main werewolf in New Moon was some kind of world extreme karate champion at age 11 or something? I think his name's Taylor Lautner? Seeing some of the posters advertising that movie makes me think: I want abs like that.

Twilight, or at least New Moon is interesting to me because now, it's buff men who are totally being put in the centerfold (although there's that one PETA ad where Kristen Stewart is going "furless"), and I've discovered that in my case at least, there really is a psychological impact on Joe Six Pack...I mean, I know I can't compete with that. And I feel just a bit ashamed for that fact (not really really ridiculously ashamed, but just a little). Is this what women have felt about the female models plastered all over magazines all this time?

And on top of that is the question as to how much of the Taylor Lautner's figure in the ads is really human, and how much is CG generated. (Excluding any images where he's actually shown as a werewolf or anything).

I see New Moon as a test case in the theory that as women acquire more money in mainstream capitalist society, men will be objectified more and more, until it gets to the point that men and women are equally objectified once there's a 50/50 split in total income share. Even though there are ultimarely some feminist undertones to be found in The Mighty Buck's ability to turn every conceivable thing into a tradable object, I'm still concerned that the most widespread discourse on the human body and its desirability takes place in images that are traded for cash.

In the meantime...anyone know of doctors who specialize in "ab enhancement surgery"?

>.>
<.<

EDIT: Now that I've read some of the stalking and potential pedophilic glorification apparently apparent in the Twilight series I'm disturbed (I haven't read the novels, nor seen the movies though, so I'll take everyone's word for it). But I suppose you can take it as a societal anecdote that I felt there were psychological pressures placed on men as a result of New Moon's marketing campaign.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 09:30:57 pm by FaustWolf »

ZombieBucky

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #888 on: November 23, 2009, 09:33:10 pm »
ugh twilight. megan is obsessed with it. when i tell her that its sexist trash she starts saying that im just jealous im not that hawt.
i might be, but im not jealous that i dont sparkle.
the general theme of women being inferior to men and having to keep in their 'roles' else they be horribly injured is disgusting. the only thing i can say to twilight is this:
poor bram.
poor poor bram.

FaustWolf

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #889 on: November 23, 2009, 09:38:17 pm »
I'm really interested in how Twilight thematically reinforces male-dominant sexism now, as someone who's never seen nor read it! I think I'm going to research this a bit; do you all think it's popular because it masks male-dominated sexism with images of hawt male bods (thus causing the female fans to overlook said sexism), or does it play on some kind of expectations the female readers already have regarding female and male behavior?

People can feel free to move any answers into the Fuck Sexism thread.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #890 on: November 24, 2009, 12:57:03 am »
I'm too disgusted to even remotely want to venture into an expanded feminist criticism, but the short version is, women in Twilight are helpless. Men possess all the power and mark who they want. Easy to see how this view would come from a member of the Mormon Church (or any Christian sect, for that matter).

GenesisOne

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #891 on: November 24, 2009, 01:49:00 am »

Except for the girls who are already vampires, women in Twilight are the archetypal Damsel in Distress.

Such a concept was cute before the 20th century, but times have changed.  Feminism has risen, and this novel to me is a bit of a step backwards.

Stephen King even admitted she couldn't write worth a damn.

Thought

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #892 on: November 24, 2009, 12:56:40 pm »
Saj, I am curious then as to how you feel about the sexist themes in Dracula. Is it more acceptable for teenagers to read that since it has the excuse of being written in a different era with different sensibilities?

Certainly, there are sexist themes in Twilight, but I wonder if there might be more. Having not read the books myself, I can't say how non-fancy-pants people in the text are generally treated (for example, is the damsel in distress ever a mundane male), but it would seem like issues similar to this are present in other, less-distasteful, cultural sources. Consider the superhero world in general: when compared to Superman, the Green Lantern, The Shadow, or Darkwing Duck, the average person in general is relegated to the damsel in distress role. If the only regular person interacting with these superpeople happens to be female, then that would give the appearance of sexism. Thus, is the protagonist of Twilight the damsel in distress because she is a she, or is it because she is mundane?

To offer an illustration of what I am trying to get at, there was an old Darkwing Duck episode called the Planet of the Capes. The premise was that there existed an alien world full of superheroes and that they needed an "ordinary guy" to rescue. In that episode the "ordinary guy" was male, but what if they had been female? It would have given the appearance of a culture entirely focused on the saving of the helpless woman. The reality, however, would have been that the culture was focused on the extraordinary saving the mundane; sex could have been a non-issue.

Might that, then, be the theme of Twilight? The protagonist enters a world of demigods, essentially; being the eternal "damsel in distress" would have been the default of the character even if she was male.

There is something about Twilight that is connecting with a lot more than just teenage girls. To outdo The Dark Knight, I can assure you that a lot more than that single group went to see it. Teenage guys went, middle-age adults of both sexes went, and the elderly as well (I am told that there are "twi-cougars"). Some element in the story, trashy though the trappings of it may be, connects with the reader on a powerful level. I am thus proposing that this element is the desire for the mundane to be connected to the extraordinary.

I propose this because we see it in far more than just Twilight. Part of what made Harry Potter so enchanting was the idea that there was a fantastical world right around the corner that anyone could suddenly bump into. The Matrix also played into this theme, as does Transformers, and even many of Miazaki's films!

There is, however, a difference between how Twilight handles this and how others do. The Wizarding World in Harry Potter doesn't replace the mundane world, it coexists with it. Muggles might only really have the role of the damsel in distress when they make an appearance, but the fantastical doesn’t seek to push it out. In Transformers, the fantastical world fights to protect the mundane world and, on occasion, the mundane can save the fantastical. In the Matrix, the mundane world is at once both a lie and something to aspire to (that is, a world where one isn’t fighting evil robotic overlords). In Miazaki's works often the fantastical serves as a device for discovering the mundane. Twilight, on the other hand, seems to utterly reject the mundane. Once the protagonist is exposed to the fantastical world of sparklies, she is addicted and, like a crack addict, will go back again and again until it consumes her. The mundane has no place in the world of Twilight; it appears to be a story of spiraling addiction.

KebreI

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #893 on: November 24, 2009, 05:45:52 pm »
There is something about Twilight that is connecting with a lot more than just teenage girls. To outdo The Dark Knight, I can assure you that a lot more than that single group went to see it. Teenage guys went, middle-age adults of both sexes went, and the elderly as well (I am told that there are "twi-cougars"). Some element in the story, trashy though the trappings of it may be, connects with the reader on a powerful level. I am thus proposing that this element is the desire for the mundane to be connected to the extraordinary.
It had the Titanic effect, it was a perfect date movie.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #894 on: November 24, 2009, 06:19:28 pm »
It had the Titanic effect, it was a perfect date movie.

That seems a bit dismissive. In any case, it's also wrong, since roughly 80 percent of the audiences have been female. In that context, your comment brings back to my mind my whole "hate it because it's popular" problem. As far as strong distaste goes, I've had a much bigger problem with movies that were mostly or entirely male-driven, and yet their never brought the backlash that Twilight's success has brought. Is it because Twilight is so much vastly worse than all of them? That's an incredible long-shot, in my view.

We know that both the traditional media and the blogosphere are heavily male-dominated, guaranteeing that male reactions to anything in pop culture will be disproportionately represented. I wonder: If one went out and counted the sex of all the people complaining about the movie, would one end up with an 80 percent female ratio or even close to it? I very much doubt it. I suspect the outright majority of this backlash is male-driven. Your comment provides an insight into part of why that may be. Twilight, you say, is the so-called "perfect date movie"...except it's not. The demographics are extraordinarily unusual in that regard. Maybe some of those males in the 20 percent were on dates and had no interest in the movie themselves, but, even if all of them were, their receipts alone would not have made this a blockbuster or even half of a blockbuster (assuming their female dates made up the other half). The very phrase "date movie" implies a certain contempt in the same vein as "chick flick," a movie that is somehow unworthy of proper audiences and instead suited only for, ahem, the womenfolk. The perspective in that kind of language is unabashedly masculine, as so much of our cultural language inevitably is. One of the problems with misogyny in our society is that males disproportionately are sorer losers and more jealous--or at least are much more vocal about it--when they are excluded from big things dominated by the other sex. They tend to become dismissive, spiteful, even malicious.

None of this accounts for the female backlash to Twilight, but that's not much of a question mark: If a movie, coming from a vastly popular book series, suddenly became the third best opening-grossing blockbuster of all time, and was 80 percent female in its receipts--which boggles the mind so much that I have newfound skepticism for the methodological reliability of the box office sex estimation statistics we've been fed all these years--then, by sheer popularity, then it would be a matter of simple numbers that there would be a much, much larger female backlash as well...large enough to mask any female component to the whole sexist factor in these equations, which is disappointing.

KebreI

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #895 on: November 24, 2009, 09:06:17 pm »
If you think its wrong because that 80% women attended, then later you state (and I agree) that the numbers can't be trusted I can't help but laugh. Also of the ethics and attitude of a date movie?!? I'll just laugh once more. At a date movie the purpose is to submerse your self in the movies romantic atmosphere, and romance is one of the most sexist acts on this planet.

Sajainta

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #896 on: November 24, 2009, 09:29:11 pm »
...and romance is one of the most sexist acts on this planet.

I guess that depends on how you define "romance."  I certainly don't think it is sexist.  But "romance" to me goes both ways, it isn't just things D does to be romantic--I try to be romantic as well.

What about romance do you think is sexist?

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #897 on: November 24, 2009, 09:59:46 pm »
If you think its wrong because that 80% women attended, then later you state (and I agree) that the numbers can't be trusted I can't help but laugh.

The difference here is that you disagree with the methodology because you don't like the conclusions in this case, whereas I am skeptical because the conclusions are so unprecedented. In practical terms, I don't doubt that the demographics for Twilight have been completely out of the ordinary. I'm not disputing that; I'm skeptical of the degree. The numbers are almost certainly in the right direction: This movie has been attended overwhelmingly by females. You, on the other hand, seem not to want to accept that conclusion at all, because it would undermine your "date movie" theory. Given how little you thought you put into your theory, I doubt it would be a good use of your time to try and defend it when your defense would require proving or at least strongly suggesting that the demographics measurements have been totally wrong.

Also of the ethics and attitude of a date movie?!? I'll just laugh once more. At a date movie the purpose is to submerse your self in the movies romantic atmosphere, and romance is one of the most sexist acts on this planet.

I'm not sure what I said that drove this response out of you, but I am sure that I have no idea what the devil you're talking about. Unless you're confusing "romance" with the romance genre, that is...in which case you're...well...confused. =P

GenesisOne

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #898 on: November 24, 2009, 10:55:56 pm »
Deviating from the romance concept...

I'm not so much interested in the dynamics of this romance film (and the friction is causes on message forums like this one), but more interested in how audience expectations differentiates between box office gross and overall reviews of the film in question.

How much does the film-going public know about what makes a decent movie?  A lot?  A little?

Do they know what they're paying for?  Adaptations have always been a safe bet with executive producers nowadays (calling them Pre-Sold Franchises) because of their built-in fan base.  Even so, there are only so many fans for the series.

Box office numbers are a strong indicator of the film's popularity, but a weak indicator of the quality of the movie overall.  There are reasons that critics may not like a movie, but in the case of New Moon, the critics here were "turned off by its slow pace, relentlessly downcast tone, and excessive length." (Courtesy of Rotten Tomatoes)

To me, box officer numbers haven't always been a reliable measurement for the quality of the movie.  For example, Transformers 2 was critically panned, yet look how well it fared in the box office.  This just translates to the theory that movie-goers simply don't care as much as they should about dynamic characters, an amazing story, titillating dialogue, emotional content, etc.  

It is my belief that as long as there's a rigidly formulaic, premise-exploiting popcorn flick out there, people will forgo the elements that constitute a half-decent film as long as they're instantly gratified, while the producers laugh all the way to the bank off the easily-stimulated minds of their audiences.

Check out Roger Ebert's review of New Moon here.  Simply delightful:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091118/REVIEWS/911199998
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 05:49:43 pm by GenesisOne »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #899 on: November 24, 2009, 11:13:15 pm »
Genesis, I think we can sum it up with "Popularity and quality are not the same thing."