Stuff you hate

[ZeaLitY]

What other options are on the table, except use of governmental force to separate the culture from the people?

[xcalibur]

What other options are on the table, except use of governmental force to separate the culture from the people?

my whole point is that this is exceedingly difficult.

the most realistic option is keep the social issues under control without wasting too many resources on them.

[Truthordeal]

What other options are on the table, except use of governmental force to separate the culture from the people?

I don't have an answer for that. As xcalibur said, it is an extremely difficult situation. Off the top of my head: an increased police presence in Romani prevalent areas, if nothing other than to keep the non-Roma safe. If you take away their success at criminal behavior, they will either starve or they will attempt something other than crime.  This is not the ideal solution, but I doubt there is one that makes everyone happy.

But, just because we can't find an easy cure-all doesn't mean we need to resort to that course of action.

[Lord J Esq]

Thanks for clarifying earlier, xcalibur. That passes muster with me.

I think you and Truthordeal recognize that there are no good fixes for a failed culture which do not entail disrupting the culture in some way and otherwise depriving the people of some measure of their liberty. I would suppose that ZeaLitY mentioned something like sterilization as a roundabout way of recognizing that stopping these problems at the generational level is vastly easier than fixing them in people who have already grown up and decided how they will look at the world. That said, I don't presently support large-scale sterilization programs as a response to a failed culture--mainly for lack of sufficient consideration, and partly due to concerns about "unjustifiable" infringements on their liberty and about the possibility that it would amount to cruelty even if well-intentioned.

I will say that I think the two of you need to draw a finer distinction between aggressive but productive and ultimately beneficial solutions, and aggressive, punitive, ultimately deleterious solutions...because they can appear very similar in terms of their level of intrusiveness into the culture in question, and thus the individual lives of people, yet they are very different entities. Large-scale aggressive intervention is often more ethical and humane than none at all, but many people cannot discern between beneficial and detrimental intervention, and thus oppose all large-scale intervention. (And some people have the reverse problem of supporting large-scale intervention regardless of whether it is justified or not.)

[Syna]

This is probably the only case I've encountered where the people doing the hating have a legitimate rationale for generalizing their hatred. I can emphasize with that, and I probably wouldn't be as kind to them policywise as Syna and FaustWolf were. I have no desire to defend them from their own actions.

Hmm, I'm not saying I would be kind to them. I really don't know what the solution is at this point, but I'm not a relativist (nor do I believe in absolute morality, but regardless). My instinct is to say "more, better police," because if the police were able to do their jobs with respect to the Roma this would not be so much of an issue, but I don't think that would necessarily end well. Regardless, the Roma are disrupting the cultures they live in and causing a great deal of harm to people and property, so I don't see it as remiss, necessarily, that people dislike them, & that states crack down upon them. Actions have consequences.

I do very much doubt that the chances they were given were very well-considered.

What I'd like to see is a serious discussion about discrimination and dysfunction that goes beyond "they're evil, terrible people," and beyond the assumption that if someone choses against a chance of hard work, mainstream success, and moral compliance they are inherently degenerate. There is probably a great deal to be learned about the psychology of poverty from the Roma's situation.  In general, I favor framing questions of ethics in terms of cultural norms, because that's what I consider 95% of ethics to be.

I also know (and it's repeated in the thread) that the gypsies in Southern Spain are very well-adjusted and well-liked. Assuming they have anything significant in common with the Roma generally, maybe some clues to a policy could be found in studying the history of the region.

[tushantin]

...an increased police presence in Romani prevalent areas, if nothing other than to keep the non-Roma safe. If you take away their success at criminal behavior, they will either starve or they will attempt something other than crime.  This is not the ideal solution, but I doubt there is one that makes everyone happy.

But, just because we can't find an easy cure-all doesn't mean we need to resort to that course of action.

culture can be a flimsy veneer, but it can also be deep-rooted. people live in certain ways and tend to practice certain professions in accordance with long-term patterns. clamping down on them or giving them new tools and opportunities doesn't necessarily change them, unless they are receptive to it. these deep-rooted cultures CAN change gradually, but that's about it. All-out genocide would probably be easier than remolding a people.

I don't think the Roma are racially inferior, even though they've maintained their genetics very well (they've been traced back to India, btw). but they have a deep-rooted nomadic culture, which is demonstrated by them approaching life the same way for a very long time through radically different circumstances. there isn't much you can do about that, aside from lending a hand to Roma individuals who want to be something different... unless you're willing to get your hands bloody.

but there's a problem with this, and even moreso with genocide. Aside from the obvious moral concerns, they require tyranny. You simply can't maintain a free and democratic society while doing ruthless purges and pogroms.

The Roma may cause social problems, but the costs involved in obliterating them are much too high.

My instinct is to say "more, better police," because if the police were able to do their jobs with respect to the Roma this would not be so much of an issue, but I don't think that would necessarily end well. Regardless, the Roma are disrupting the cultures they live in and causing a great deal of harm to people and property, so I don't see it as remiss, necessarily, that people dislike them, & that states crack down upon them. Actions have consequences.

What I'd like to see is a serious discussion about discrimination and dysfunction that goes beyond "they're evil, terrible people," and beyond the assumption that if someone choses against a chance of hard work, mainstream success, and moral compliance they are inherently degenerate. There is probably a great deal to be learned about the psychology of poverty from the Roma's situation.  In general, I favor framing questions of ethics in terms of cultural norms, because that's what I consider 95% of ethics to be.

I also know (and it's repeated in the thread) that the gypsies in Southern Spain are very well-adjusted and well-liked. Assuming they have anything significant in common with the Roma generally, maybe some clues to a policy could be found in studying the history of the region.

[rushingwind]

What other options are on the table, except use of governmental force to separate the culture from the people?

I know I'm a few days late, and have only been somewhat paying attention to this thread (I've been busy), but this got my attention. After reading back through these posts, though, I hope I'm seriously misunderstanding this. ZeaLitY, are you actually suggesting that genocide is a reasonable option here?

[ZeaLitY]

No, as much my detractors would have people believe it. I'm suggesting very strong enforcement of law to break the cycle of damaging culture. Roma kids are taught to steal from infancy, paired off with others and forced to mate in their preteens, etc.,, etc. There is a massive exploitation of children here, and I don't see how the cycle can be broken unless these children are removed from this environment.

[rushingwind]

No, as much my detractors would have people believe it. I'm suggesting very strong enforcement of law to break the cycle of damaging culture. Roma kids are taught to steal from infancy, paired off with others and forced to mate in their preteens, etc.,, etc. There is a massive exploitation of children here, and I don't see how the cycle can be broken unless these children are removed from this environment.

Okay, good. That makes more sense. I had a very WTF reaction when I thought otherwise!

I know far too little about the Roma to comment on what to do about the situation...

[Truthordeal]

No, as much my detractors would have people believe it.

Bullshit. Your own words are there for anyone to see.

[tushantin]

Roma kids are taught to steal from infancy...

I dunno why, but that sounded awesome to me!

There is a massive exploitation of children here, and I don't see how the cycle can be broken unless these children are removed from this environment.

Now here I would wager on the idea that taking a child away from the environment would deprive him of crucial observation required for his growth. He will simply "think differently" (like any of us here), but he won't have the cadel of precision to correct his own environs (like any of us pertaining to Roma). He can flee, but he will never change the crucial -- that light will burn for himself, not to illuminate the shady cottage.

For now, I will say nothing more.

[tushantin]

 

I used to be quite fluent with Braille.

But when I was confronted with it again today, I've realized that I've forgotten it entirely.

And thanks to my handicap, learning it again is gonna be hell...

[Lord J Esq]

No, as much my detractors would have people believe it.

Bullshit. Your own words are there for anyone to see.

If you actually think ZeaLitY is advocating genocide, you should do something about it. I see you interacting with him in other threads more recently than the timestamps on these posts here, and there's no indication that your revulsion has carried with you outside this thread. Were you exaggerating your accusations, or does the prospect of sharing company with a mass murderer not trouble you?

There's no barb in that. It's an honest criticism, and an honest question. If your principles mean anything to you, you can't put them aside for convenience and geniality. I should address your criticism that ZeaLitY is proposing something you find horrific. He has denied it, and I think it is oversimplistic for you or anyone to gravitate to the usual tropes, the well-traveled roads of radical political policy, and then try to fit all other policy views into those simplistic models. His actual views are easily radical enough for you find something to complain about, but I don't think he actually wants to kill large groups of people without first making an individual judgment of wrongdoing by those involved. On the other hand, his punitive statements toward the Romani were very broad, and you would be in your rights to demand further clarifications.

[tushantin]

Were you exaggerating your accusations...

...then try to fit all other policy views into those simplistic models.

Really? Seriously, Josh?

I don't mean your topic regarding Roma or anything else. I meant with your quoted "statement". Seriously? Coming from you?

[Lord J Esq]

What? Are you disagreeing with my decision not to endorse Truthordeal's claim that ZeaLitY wants genocide?