Author Topic: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?  (Read 9632 times)

Ramsus

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2006, 06:14:12 pm »
The key to triggering the relativistic effect of time dilation is acceleration, not velocity. If you're up to trillions upon trillions of G-forces, you could outlive the entire solar system on a voyage to Jupiter.

Except you'd still have passed Jupiter.

If you've got the power to do all that acceleration, then you could accelerate in the reverse direction for only double the cost. Not a problem when we're talking about forces so grand!

I'm done playing Valkyrie Profile for a bit, so I'll explain my reasoning.


I don't believe stop go travel would multiply the effect, but you're getting into general relativity and accelerated reference frames -- which is a bit beyond me at the moment (mostly because I mostly learned about this stuff from a college astronomy class that didn't involve any math and a little book by some Einstein guy). If you want to look at it that way, then this is how I'm pretty sure it'd work.

From your perspective on the ship, accelerate towards the earth, and Earth clocks run faster. Accelerate away from the earth, and Earth clocks run slower. This is because you're now in an accelerated reference frame with a sort of "pseudo-gravity" field covering the entire universe, in which the direction of acceleration can be used to determine a "top" and a "bottom" and time is faster above you and slower below.

Notice that those above you see you as slower while you'd see them as faster, instead of both of you seeing time slow or speed up as is the case with "time dilation" in special relativity.

Also, if you accelerate in one direction and then equally in the opposite, the effects pretty much cancel out, but then how does Earth experience more time than you do on your trip to Jupiter?

Gravitational time dilation is dependent on distance. The farther you are, the more pronounced the effect. When you leave and return from Earth, you accelerate in the same direction away from it. This makes time appear to slow down on Earth, but you're so close that the effect is minimal. When you reach Jupiter and decide to turn around though, the earth is hundreds of millions of kilometers away, and the effect is more pronounced. Only this time, the earth is way above you in your "pseudo-gravity" field, so Earth's time appears to advance incredibly fast from your perspective.

However, Jupiter just isn't far enough away to cause several more years to have elapsed on Earth than did for you. That's why I say that you must have passed Jupiter if you experience such a result.


Now, if you're willing to throw accelerated reference frames out the window and forget about gravitational time dilation, you can calculate what the time difference would be fairly easily based on the distance and velocity traveled.

The time elapsed for someone sitting on Earth would be distance * velocity * 2.
The time elapsed for you (your proper time) would be distance * velocity * 2 * sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).

Notice that your experienced time is always less than the time someone sitting on Earth sees you take, yet it's almost not different at all until you get pretty close to light speed.

Jupiter is only a few hours away at those speeds, so you'd only ever accomplish turning your 2 hour trip into ever smaller and smaller amounts of time.

- "Are we there yet?"

- "Yeah. Remember to set your watch ahead a few hours."


But damn, what do I know? I'm just a college drop-out.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 06:17:58 pm by Ramsus »

Magus22

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2006, 07:43:28 pm »
Ramsus. You brought up some awesome points. But did you take into account for Earth still rotating and revolving as you speed away in one direction? Earth will not be in the same spot you left it. Space time differs a lot from our time here on this planet.

I did my Senior project on space and the unknown. Dark Matter cannot be "seen" but I will tell you this.

In a recent study of mapping the universe, two woman scientists cut a piece of the universe out in the shape of a pie, where Earth was the focal point at the "point" of the pie. They extracted 3 layers of the pie and in all, held around 12,000 galaxies. The one thing they noticed was that the galaxies were strung up in a web formation. The web of galaxies faded as you looked closer to the "crust" of the pie. The galaxies weren't together and were scattered more randomly. You all know what a web looks like, there are holes. Well, there were also "pockets" in this galactic web in which there were small pockets of no galaxies at all. Just, plain darkness, free of almost anything. The question was, what was holding these galaxies in place. There answer, this Dark Matter we talk about . . .  with gravity so powerful that it keeps these galaxies in this web formation.

Ramsus

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2006, 08:26:06 pm »
Ramsus. You brought up some awesome points. But did you take into account for Earth still rotating and revolving as you speed away in one direction? Earth will not be in the same spot you left it. Space time differs a lot from our time here on this planet.

I don't think a few tens of thousand kilometers is going to matter much when you're traveling thousands of millions of kilometers -- especially when I've essentially argued that the relativistic effects of even thousands of millions of kilometers of travel barely even matter.

Likewise, I didn't bother to worry about the gravitational time dilation caused by being on the earth's gravity. It's almost negligeable on any human time scale, even more so on a cosmic one.

You can look up the equations and plug in the numbers if you want. I'm pretty sure the effect is within a fraction of a fraction of a percent, so I won't bother.

Really, we're working at such a small scale here that you might just throw relativity out the door and not worry about it. That's the point I'd really like to make. So what if you arrive home half an hour earlier than you expected? You'll have to go a bit farther than Jupiter to return to the Planet of the Apes.

I'm more concerned about whether or not I'm conceptually correct in the previous post. It really bothers me because the only references I have are pretty vague when it comes to certain parts of general relativity and accelerated reference frames (Relativity by Einstein is mostly just a concise, conceptual overview). If I had a good textbook on general relativity, I'd be set.

Quote
I did my Senior project on space and the unknown. Dark Matter cannot be "seen" but I will tell you this.

In a recent study of mapping the universe, two woman scientists cut a piece of the universe out in the shape of a pie, where Earth was the focal point at the "point" of the pie. They extracted 3 layers of the pie and in all, held around 12,000 galaxies. The one thing they noticed was that the galaxies were strung up in a web formation. The web of galaxies faded as you looked closer to the "crust" of the pie. The galaxies weren't together and were scattered more randomly. You all know what a web looks like, there are holes. Well, there were also "pockets" in this galactic web in which there were small pockets of no galaxies at all. Just, plain darkness, free of almost anything. The question was, what was holding these galaxies in place. There answer, this Dark Matter we talk about . . .  with gravity so powerful that it keeps these galaxies in this web formation.

It wouldn't surprise me if a complete theory for quantum gravity came about that explained away most of the "dark matter" we observe (or rather, don't observe), leaving a little room for things like neutrinoes.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 08:54:21 pm by Ramsus »

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2006, 11:40:12 pm »
OK I READ THIS I THINK I GET YOU I THINK WE WILL BECAUSE IN SCIANCE CLASS WE WATCHED A MOVIE AND THEY SAID THAT ALIANS EXSIST AND THEY HAVE MORE  TECNOLIGY THEN WE DO AND THEY THINK THAT THEY CAN TRAVILE THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE THE FARTHEST WE'VE BEEN IS I DONT KNOW HOW FAR HUMAN LIFE HAS BEEN SO IF THERE ARE ALIANS OUT THERE AND THEY HAVE MASTERED THE SPEED OF LIGHT THEN WE WILL MASTER THE SPEED OF LIGHT TO IS WHAT I THINK BUT NOT ANYTIME SOON LIKE AFTER I DIE THEY WILL BUT I THINK ALIANS EXSIST CAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT SIGNS IN CORNFILEDS AND ON RADIOS AND STUFF WERE PLAINED OUT BY A HUMAN UNLESS SOME PERSON WANTS PEOPLE TO THINK VERY BADLY THAT ALIANS ARE REAL

SORRY FOR SOME SPELLING

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2006, 12:05:13 am »
OK I READ THIS I THINK I GET YOU I THINK WE WILL BECAUSE IN SCIANCE CLASS WE WATCHED A MOVIE AND THEY SAID THAT ALIANS EXSIST AND THEY HAVE MORE  TECNOLIGY THEN WE DO AND THEY THINK THAT THEY CAN TRAVILE THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE THE FARTHEST WE'VE BEEN IS I DONT KNOW HOW FAR HUMAN LIFE HAS BEEN SO IF THERE ARE ALIANS OUT THERE AND THEY HAVE MASTERED THE SPEED OF LIGHT THEN WE WILL MASTER THE SPEED OF LIGHT TO IS WHAT I THINK BUT NOT ANYTIME SOON LIKE AFTER I DIE THEY WILL BUT I THINK ALIANS EXSIST CAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT SIGNS IN CORNFILEDS AND ON RADIOS AND STUFF WERE PLAINED OUT BY A HUMAN UNLESS SOME PERSON WANTS PEOPLE TO THINK VERY BADLY THAT ALIANS ARE REAL

SORRY FOR SOME SPELLING
Are you sure your science teacher didn't put on some random movie because he didn't want to teach, because for some reason that reminds me of some 50's alien movie.

Hm, watch 2001: A Space Odyssey, Nicole, or if you can, try and read the other Odyssey's.

cupn00dles

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2006, 12:12:48 am »
HAAAAAAAEAHAEHEAEAHAEHAHAE
(sorry for that)

Isn't it just WONDERFUL to think that, actually, everything that this Nicole user wrote is actually as valid as everything everybody else wrote in this thread?

Wonderful I say!

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2006, 12:17:12 am »
well soory im not a sciance professer and no because she gave us a lecture on it seriously people were talking about it and they were professers and some were saying what they think and others were saying they dont think it will happen and stuff like that teachers wont make you watch a dumbass sciance move to be pointless in the end

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2006, 12:53:39 am »
OK I READ THIS I THINK I GET YOU I THINK WE WILL BECAUSE IN SCIANCE CLASS WE WATCHED A MOVIE AND THEY SAID THAT ALIANS EXSIST AND THEY HAVE MORE  TECNOLIGY THEN WE DO AND THEY THINK THAT THEY CAN TRAVILE THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE THE FARTHEST WE'VE BEEN IS I DONT KNOW HOW FAR HUMAN LIFE HAS BEEN SO IF THERE ARE ALIANS OUT THERE AND THEY HAVE MASTERED THE SPEED OF LIGHT THEN WE WILL MASTER THE SPEED OF LIGHT TO IS WHAT I THINK BUT NOT ANYTIME SOON LIKE AFTER I DIE THEY WILL BUT I THINK ALIANS EXSIST CAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT SIGNS IN CORNFILEDS AND ON RADIOS AND STUFF WERE PLAINED OUT BY A HUMAN UNLESS SOME PERSON WANTS PEOPLE TO THINK VERY BADLY THAT ALIANS ARE REAL

SORRY FOR SOME SPELLING

While it is wholy possible that aliens exist, crop circles are man made. It has been demonstrated by those who do it for news crews. It involves using a plank of wood with ropes at each end. The person holds the ropes and press down on the board with his feet, thus pushing down the crops.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2006, 01:27:30 am »
OK I READ THIS I THINK I GET YOU I THINK WE WILL BECAUSE IN SCIANCE CLASS WE WATCHED A MOVIE AND THEY SAID THAT ALIANS EXSIST AND THEY HAVE MORE  TECNOLIGY THEN WE DO AND THEY THINK THAT THEY CAN TRAVILE THE SPEED OF LIGHT BECAUSE THE FARTHEST WE'VE BEEN IS I DONT KNOW HOW FAR HUMAN LIFE HAS BEEN SO IF THERE ARE ALIANS OUT THERE AND THEY HAVE MASTERED THE SPEED OF LIGHT THEN WE WILL MASTER THE SPEED OF LIGHT TO IS WHAT I THINK BUT NOT ANYTIME SOON LIKE AFTER I DIE THEY WILL BUT I THINK ALIANS EXSIST CAUSE THERE IS NO WAY THAT SIGNS IN CORNFILEDS AND ON RADIOS AND STUFF WERE PLAINED OUT BY A HUMAN UNLESS SOME PERSON WANTS PEOPLE TO THINK VERY BADLY THAT ALIANS ARE REAL

SORRY FOR SOME SPELLING

While it is wholy possible that aliens exist, crop circles are man made. It has been demonstrated by those who do it for news crews. It involves using a plank of wood with ropes at each end. The person holds the ropes and press down on the board with his feet, thus pushing down the crops.
welll.....ummmmm......you make a good point ill go with your answer

Ramsus

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2006, 01:42:01 am »
I still believe the likelihood of an alien noticing our world and observing or even visiting is rather slim. That is, unless they're drunk joy-riders and faster-than-light travel is more than possible (and rather easy), in which case someone might notice some of our radio signals from the last century or so and decide to come mess with us.

If that's the case, Roswell was just another drunk driving accident, albeit something of an extraterrestrial one.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2006, 01:21:16 pm »
Well ok were do you people get these BIG words

Lord J Esq

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2006, 06:32:48 pm »
Oh, that's it... "Big words"?! What bosh! I've got a big word for you: English! Learn it; love it; use it. It boggles the mind how utterly incoherent some people will willfully be. On this forum, you are expected to spell, punctuate, and structure your sentences at least to the basic standards of remedial English...not this dross and cobblers you've served up! So knock off the newbie bunk or it's ring-a-ding-ding for you!

Golly, do I need a latte!

Ramsus

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2006, 07:04:50 pm »
Well ok were do you people get these BIG words

How old are you again? This forum has an unusually high number of college kids and working stiffs, giving it a different atmosphere from one with mostly teenage kids and the like. Even so, most of the language used on this forum should still be understandable to anyone with a high school education.

The exception would be that of Lord J esq, who has a tendency towards rather esoteric language brought about by mutations he developed when exposed to large doses of radiation as a child. I think he might even be a superhero -- the famed "Super Wordy" who bores his enemies to death with long-winded conversations concerning the meaning of life.

What does "Lord J esq" even mean?

Honestly though, some of the posters here aren't even from English-speaking countries, and they seem to do just fine. Some of the more intelligent posters aren't even in high school yet.

If you're having trouble understanding things, you might get more enjoyment from returning to teenage life. You only get to live it once, then it's job job job and bills bills bills. For the love of God, don't sit around wasting it on some Internet forum.

That applies to the rest of you teenage kids as well.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2006, 07:29:04 pm »
Oh, that's it... "Big words"?! What bosh! I've got a big word for you: English! Learn it; love it; use it. It boggles the mind how utterly incoherent some people will willfully be. On this forum, you are expected to spell, punctuate, and structure your sentences at least to the basic standards of remedial English...not this dross and cobblers you've served up! So knock off the newbie bunk or it's ring-a-ding-ding for you!

Golly, do I need a latte!

Well like i said im not a english professer. And be sides if i can understand it it's ok for me.

Nicole_Flesher

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Re: Will we ever travel at the speed of light?
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2006, 07:32:37 pm »
Well ok were do you people get these BIG words

How old are you again? This forum has an unusually high number of college kids and working stiffs, giving it a different atmosphere from one with mostly teenage kids and the like. Even so, most of the language used on this forum should still be understandable to anyone with a high school education.

The exception would be that of Lord J esq, who has a tendency towards rather esoteric language brought about by mutations he developed when exposed to large doses of radiation as a child. I think he might even be a superhero -- the famed "Super Wordy" who bores his enemies to death with long-winded conversations concerning the meaning of life.

What does "Lord J esq" even mean?

Honestly though, some of the posters here aren't even from English-speaking countries, and they seem to do just fine. Some of the more intelligent posters aren't even in high school yet.

If you're having trouble understanding things, you might get more enjoyment from returning to teenage life. You only get to live it once, then it's job job job and bills bills bills. For the love of God, don't sit around wasting it on some Internet forum.

That applies to the rest of you teenage kids as well.
Well to make you happy when i go back to school in 3 weeks i'll study harder for you peoples.