Author Topic: best villian in the SE universe.  (Read 18753 times)

grey_the_angel

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best villian in the SE universe.
« on: July 20, 2006, 02:38:57 am »
discuss the greatest, most sucessful villian in th SE universe.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2006, 03:08:49 am »
From my experience with SE games, it's certainly Lavos. Sephiroth is powerful, to be sure, but doesn't have a millionth the patience Lavos does, nor the cunning. Plus, he doesn't bear nearly so cool an epithet as 'the infamous immortal'. Oh, and accounting for Chrono Cross, Lavos in the aberrant form of the Time Devourer is many times more powerful. His battle with the royal family of Zeal (essetially the plot of CT/CC ... Chrono and Serge are just heroes by extension. It really all revolves around Janus and, especially, Schala) makes for a far more compellion conflict. And he has a very powerful opponent in the hero Janus - and yes, against all challengers the guy's a hero. In fact, I would say he is the most Classical hero I have seen in any RPG. No other one but Janus is so like the ancient heroes, he who bears many of the marking charactaristics (ie. isolation, struggle, and a certain violent streak many shared.)

A bit of a case, I suppose, might be made for Kefka. He actually is a far more successful villain than Sephiroth ever is - Lavos equals that mad clown, in that he does succeed... until those dratted Seven change what already happened. Anyway, one might make a good case for Kefka, as I said, but at his ultimate his power would not be anywhere near what the TD was approaching. Nor, for that matter, did Kefka have that cunning patience - he was a being acting far more on impulse and insanity, whilst Lavos... he was the clever one. Recall the bio-engineering evident? Lavos was sentient. The ethics of what he was doing can be discussed elsewhere, but the Dark Lord Lavos theory (which I began) gives him a more sinister edge than might sometimes be attributed. If that is taken into account, I know of no others who have his level of villainy. Not Kefka, not Sephiroth certainly, absolutely not Yu Yevon or Seymore (though arguably Yu Yevon had more success - a thousand year reign of power - than Sephiroth), not... um... wait... Ansem, no, not him either from what I know. I've only seen KH I, however. Ansem's not half-bad, but still a bit, how shall we say it... kiddish of a villain. In pure villainy Maleficent is, even as her name implies, more... malefic. She was always the best of all Disney villains. Anyway, I'm not really qualified to judge KH.

So, basically, my vote falls to the Infamous Immortal, Lavos.

CronoTriggerfan

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2006, 03:13:40 am »
I'd say Lavos, with Kefka as a close second. I'd also throw Magus in the mix, but that's only if you count him as a villan...

CTFan

Daniel Krispin

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2006, 03:17:17 am »
I'd say Lavos, with Kefka as a close second. I'd also throw Magus in the mix, but that's only if you count him as a villan...

CTFan

Nah, Janus is a hero. Kato himself speaks of the 'noble character' of Janus, so he's a hero all right. Like I said, he is, in fact, nearer to the Classical idea of a hero (say, Herakles) than near well any other RPG hero I can think of. He is that interesting and rare figure who is so emotionally and spiritually powerful he can actually turn away from the 'dark side', to borrow Star Wars terminology. Basically, if anybody could suffer through something, it would be Janus.

saridon

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2006, 03:39:35 am »
a toss up between Sephiroth and Kefka for me

grey_the_angel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2006, 03:49:48 am »
actually its the dude I posted. marche.

saridon

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2006, 03:53:52 am »
actually its the dude I posted. marche.

ahh... i see now my comp never shows links to creative uncut so i didnt see my bad.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2006, 04:00:13 am »
No picture would appear, and I would ask you why you would think him. I do not even know who he is. What infamous actions are to his name, what villainy has he attempted and accomplished that would make him deserving of even a Fury's scorn? Is he a ravisher of worlds, a cunning and malefic will, as could be ascribed to Lavos?

And so, too, would I challenge any who say Sephiroth. What great evil did he accomplish? If anything he failed in his ambition, and his destruction came to nothing. A Cetra princess died... what of it? Ten thousand Zealots died when they disturbed the sleep of Lavos. If any are fit to rank near his dark glory it is only Kefka's madness... and madness it truly is! He was only driven by a ruined spirit, whilst Lavos retained command of his own. But both at least accomplished their ends - and yes, Lavos did, too, if not for Time's disfavour. Yet even Kefka cannot rival the power or infamy of Lavos, whose kind are the greatest foes of worlds themselves.

Exodus

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2006, 04:35:29 am »
In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, the story is set up as such that you play the villain of sorts, the hero/antagonist, Marche, who, after being thrown into the world of Ivalice (which is later found to be of his friend Mewt's doing), embarks on a quest to destroy Ivalice (which has indeed manifested itself as a REAL world, rather than a fantasy realm) and eventually succeeds, returning the world to how it was before being manifested into Ivalice by magic.

In some sense, grey is correct in that, while we see Marche as a young lad trying to return the world to 'reality', everybody else sees him as the enemy because he's effectively trying to destroy the existence they know.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 04:40:06 am by Exodus »

Lord J Esq

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2006, 04:43:18 am »
In some regards this comes down to a matter of how you define “villain.” Not to sound esoteric, but it is exceedingly easy to weigh the various candidates to quite different standards. That having been said, the extra detail of “greatest, most successful” villain gives us a clear indication of the direction in which the topic creator desires this move forward. In other words, irrespective of our personal concept of what makes a villain, he’s asking the slightly different question of who was the best at it. Therefore, without offering my own definition of what a villain actually is, I’ll talk about who I think did the best job of it in the SE universe—or, rather, just the S universe, because I don’t think I’ve ever played any games from predecessor Enix.

I admit to a soft spot for evil characters in video games. Sometimes they are far more interesting, more intelligent, more ambitious, and more direct than their counterparts, and with their audacious plots they are singularly responsible for creating the entire story. Their fatal flaw is that they are always weighed down by the game writers with negative characteristics that inevitably cause them to lose in the end: shortsightedness, excessive cruelty, hubris, etc. Were these gratuitous failings swept clean of their charsheets, many of these villains would actually be closer to my personal definition of “hero,” inasmuch as I acknowledge the word at all, than the official, playable heroes.

Gestahl did a good job of being a villain, ruling the Empire for a long time, making it prosperous, succeeding in his conquests, and pursuing a singular plot to attain supreme magical power. He only failed by growing drunk on his power toward the end—and even then he might still have succeeded, were it not for the deus ex machine of him standing in the wrong place at the pivotal moment. Gestahl desired order and had a mindset decidedly more constructive than destructive. His vision of a world where the Empire was truly supreme is, perhaps, something to which many of us can relate when we reflect upon our own wishes for an ideal society. The fact that his top general, top scientist, and top Magitek Knight were all decent people also says something about the quality of his reign and administration. It is easy to look at the Empire as a symbol of depravity, corruption, and industrial decay…but these images, borrowed from the Japanese ethos, were the mark of every industrial society at the turn of the twentieth century…right down to the bawdy soldiers in the lower ranks of the military. The Empire was a much more realistic aspect of FF VI than we give it credit for, in whose absence the game would have been considerably less historic. I would therefore rate Gestahl as a very successful villain. Had he been more disciplined and less compulsive as his plot was finally coming to fruition, he might have gotten exactly what he wanted.

Magus was another successful villain. In fact, he did achieve his ambition, by allying with Crono & Co. and building a rapport with them—without ever truly becoming one of the good guys. In so doing, he also escaped any punishment for his considerable villainy, left an entire continent to wipe up from the aftermath of a long war, and singularly escaped the terrible fates of his entire family and Kingdom. So, for the price of some emotional scarring and the particularly painful lost of his sister, Magus succeeded about as wildly as any villain in a video game could ever hope.

Ack! The hour grows late, so I’ll cut it short here. I think I’ve gotten my point across. I do, however, want to throw in a (modest) word of support for Marche, for the reasons laid out already.

grey_the_angel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2006, 05:11:15 am »
I put it in simple terms: in terms of going complete badass to whip the shit out of his enemies, marche does it.

I mean look at what he does for the sake of "doing the right thing"

He betrays all his friends/clan members in a way bu wanting to find a way out of the world, and in the end, having his very guild support him in destorying their world. He took away the happiness of mewt and his crippled brother, not to mention the white haired girl (don't quite remember names right now.)

He sent his brother back to the wheelchair. He took away mewts mother, made his bad the same old bitch he was in the beginning. He made the girl lose her haircolor, and her clan as well.

He literally suceeded, without exception, to what he was trying to do. bring everybody back to their problems, instead of leaving them happy and content.

Romana

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2006, 05:16:48 am »
I put it in simple terms: in terms of going complete badass to whip the shit out of his enemies, marche does it.

I mean look at what he does for the sake of "doing the right thing"

He betrays all his friends/clan members in a way bu wanting to find a way out of the world, and in the end, having his very guild support him in destorying their world. He took away the happiness of mewt and his crippled brother, not to mention the white haired girl (don't quite remember names right now.)

He sent his brother back to the wheelchair. He took away mewts mother, made his bad the same old bitch he was in the beginning. He made the girl lose her haircolor, and her clan as well.

He literally suceeded, without exception, to what he was trying to do. bring everybody back to their problems, instead of leaving them happy and content.

Jeez, all of a sudden, I'm not so sure I wanna finish that game anymore.

grey_the_angel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2006, 05:18:18 am »
I put it in simple terms: in terms of going complete badass to whip the shit out of his enemies, marche does it.

I mean look at what he does for the sake of "doing the right thing"

He betrays all his friends/clan members in a way bu wanting to find a way out of the world, and in the end, having his very guild support him in destorying their world. He took away the happiness of mewt and his crippled brother, not to mention the white haired girl (don't quite remember names right now.)

He sent his brother back to the wheelchair. He took away mewts mother, made his bad the same old bitch he was in the beginning. He made the girl lose her haircolor, and her clan as well.

He literally suceeded, without exception, to what he was trying to do. bring everybody back to their problems, instead of leaving them happy and content.

Jeez, all of a sudden, I'm not so sure I wanna finish that game anymore.
welll, you can beat it, but you can't get cid until you beat all 300 missions. at that point, why would you want to have cid though?

cupn00dles

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2006, 03:28:24 pm »
Sephie, for sure =]

Nothing can beat the Madman Gone Crazy character  :lee:

p.s.: oh yea, and he doesn't die =]
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 04:03:11 pm by cupn00dles »

nightmare975

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2006, 03:38:40 pm »
Kefka, he actually succeded in destroying the world. Lavos also succeded, but he failed because the future changed with his death. At the end of FF6, you can clearly see that the world is still wrecked.