Author Topic: best villian in the SE universe.  (Read 18755 times)

grey_the_angel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2006, 04:06:52 pm »
Kefka, he actually succeded in destroying the world. Lavos also succeded, but he failed because the future changed with his death. At the end of FF6, you can clearly see that the world is still wrecked.
kefka never suceeded: there was still land, ocean, animal plants and monsters. He became near god,  but like seperoth, he failed horribly at the end.

V_Translanka

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2006, 04:48:22 pm »
Kefka (Final Fantasy VI) did not fail in destroying the world because destroying the world was never his real goal. He had a loftier (and crazier) goal: the destruction of hope itself. It can be said that in this he failed (if not for those pesky Returner kids! Kefka was a great villain because he had no conscience. He was mad as a hatter. He was also great because the irony of his character is that the power that drove him mad in the first place is the very power that he lusts for...It's good stuff.

Lavos (Chrono Trigger/Chrono Cross) is great because it's a mystery. We don't know exactly if it has a conscience or not. From my take, it's just like a planetary viral organism that feeds off of a planet's resources to spawn it's offspring to repeat the process elsewhere...This kind of villain is neat to be up against, especially when we're given the facts that Lavos does indeed destroy the world and comes just as, if not closer, to destroying hope than Kefka managed. I think all of these things makes Lavos a top-tier villain...

Dycedarg (Final Fantasy Tactics) did some pretty ****ed up things in Tactics and deserves to be up there w/Kefka & Lavos too, I think...But the one person who I always end up hating in Tactics is Algus...I normally end up making his final battle long and grueling (sometimes healing him just so I can put the pain on him some more)...Although I also do that w/Cloud when I get him to join up...8)

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2006, 01:23:01 am »
Kefka. He was evil for evil's sake. I don't count Lavos as a villain. Either he is non-sentient (or at least, unintelligent) in which case he is beneath morality, or he is a god, in which case, he is above it.

Hadriel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2006, 01:45:38 am »
That largely depends on how you rank them.  In order to get away from the creeping terror preying upon my mind right now, I'll write a long post about it.

Power

*Note: I do not know the capabilities of the villains of any Final Fantasy before VI, so I won't be including them.

This almost certainly falls to Lavos; the potentially strongest antagonist, Ultimecia, never gave us anything but her word that she was actually capable of assimilating the universe, and her effectiveness against Squall doesn't seem to hold up notions of her success.  By contrast, Lavos himself is actually seen to have caused the K-T extinction event.  We don't know how much damage he sustained in the process, but it seems relatively clear that no Final Fantasy antagonist in any form demonstrated onscreen could stand up to him, unless they managed to devise the same tactics that Crono's team used, and even then it's debatable.  Deus, a dedicated planetary assault machine, probably comes in somewhere near the top.  Kuja and Kefka actually fall to the bottom of the list; contrary to the claims of his fanboys, the World of Ruin was in no way, shape, or form effected under Kefka's own power.  The World of Ruin was the sole creation of the imbalance of the Statues' power, and the Light of Judgment is never demonstrated to have such pervasive effects.  In fact, its use is invariably quantified as vaporizing towns.  By the end, Kefka is stated to have absorbed the full power of the Statues, but this is not demonstrated.  This is no more effective than an average tactical nuke, and probably even less so considering the medieval-scale towns of FFVI's world.  Kuja was also never demonstrated to actually have pulled an Alderaan on Terra.  Instead, he destroyed all planetary structures in an unknown radius not by directly attacking them, but by sniping at their foundations, which any engineer would be hanged for designing.  It could have been anywhere from the immediate area, which makes him about as effective as Kefka, to all the structures on the planet, which places him somewhere between Kefka and Sephiroth after taking a Lifestream bath.

In terms of potential, it again falls to Lavos.  Chrono Cross' storyline literally cannot happen without the claims of his potential universe-consuming power being true; they're even backed by Belthasar, one of the most brilliant scientists and engineers who ever lived.  Sephiroth has the potential to be one of the more powerful antagonists; his potential could range anywhere from planet-busting to actually being able to cause a supernova (the Super Nova attack is generally not taken as canon).  Conceivably, Kefka would be next; if he did actually manage to absorb the Statues' power, he'd have abilities several times more powerful than those of Sin, whose power is a fixed entity right from the start.  Kuja probably can't get much more powerful than he was at the end of FFIX; he was relying on a deus ex machina to destroy the multiverse.

Success

Lavos undoubtedly is the most successful.  At any point when time travel is required to deal with the main villain, he's simply too strong to be comparable with villains who aren't in the same class.  I would put Kefka next, since he's the only other villain that's succeeded for any measure of time with his primary goal.  He isn't too powerful on analysis, but with the Statues having wrecked the world for him, he doesn't have to be.  All that matters is that he's strong enough to be unassailable by anyone he's oppressing.  For all of Sephiroth's hype, he doesn't actually achieve much success.  He does succeed in crashing the world economy and probably killing a bunch of people, but economies can be rebuilt, and the number of people lost was not a major catastrophe on a global scale.  Kuja was actually a failed experiment, so he can be said to be the weakest in terms of success; the only thing he really succeeded in doing was getting some people killed, without bringing about the kind of total war necessary for Darth Garland's pet project.

Impact

This is a completely subjective matter; it's almost impossible to definitively identify the best antagonist for a story perspective, since virtually all of them symbolize completely different traits and themes.  Sephiroth is certainly the most iconic; other than Lavos, he's the only Square villain I know of who returned as the villain in a dedicated sequel, but popularity alone does not a good villain make.  He's one of my personal Jeebuses, but I can't speak for everyone.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2006, 02:15:40 am »
Nicely said. I just want to reiterate what I said before about Sephiroth vs. Lavos. One of Sephiroth's greatest actions is seen as the killing of the Cetra princess Aeris. However, that action is more than equalled in what Lavos wreaks upon Zeal, the Queen of the kingdom, and in particularly Schala. If she is taken for the Chrono world what Aeris was for the FFVII one (and I think that's a fair equivalent), then Sephiroth is more direct and brute. Lavos, on the other hand, does not - at least in Cross - kill her, but rather assimilates with her, subjecting her to far more terrible fortunes than death. You see, in her death, Aeris still acts as Sephiroth's foil - the Holy prayer does succeed. But Schala... if not for her last resort in Kid, she became the very worst of evils, by Lavos' machinations.

Legend of the Past

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2006, 10:29:20 am »
I put it in simple terms: in terms of going complete badass to whip the shit out of his enemies, marche does it.

I mean look at what he does for the sake of "doing the right thing"

He betrays all his friends/clan members in a way bu wanting to find a way out of the world, and in the end, having his very guild support him in destorying their world. He took away the happiness of mewt and his crippled brother, not to mention the white haired girl (don't quite remember names right now.)

He sent his brother back to the wheelchair. He took away mewts mother, made his bad the same old bitch he was in the beginning. He made the girl lose her haircolor, and her clan as well.

He literally suceeded, without exception, to what he was trying to do. bring everybody back to their problems, instead of leaving them happy and content.

You must of missed the point. Yes, Doned went back to the wheelchair. Yes, Mewt lost his mom. Yes, Ritz lost her hair color. Yes, Cid is a loser again. But the ending shows they over all their problems-Marche gained the confidence he needs to succeed in life, Mewt is no longer whiny and hurt over his dead mother and can fight back, Doned is no longer bitter about his life, Ritz accepted the beauty in her white hair and Cid is now no longer bothered about the death of his wife.

It's a game about learning how to get over problems and not escaping. Escape might make the problems get away, but that will never let you improve, never make you stronger. The journey in Ivalice taught Marche-tachi how to live and deal with problems. Marche is not an antagonist at all- he wanted to live his life without escaping. Marche is the most stable and smart of all the characters, better than even a man in his thirties or more. Marche sacrificed his own desires, he gave up on the comfort Ivalice granted him (Because it's not just Mewt who made Ivalice strong-it was Marche, Donend and Ritz as well) to deal with life's issues straight-on, and not escape. He gave up on his desires for Doned, remember? Marche sacrifices for those who matter.

As for the question- Uh, Sephiroth? With all due respect, if I were to see Kefka I'd likely laugh so hard one of my lungs would burst. If I were to see Sephiroth I'll get a stroke from the fear.

cupn00dles

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2006, 12:16:30 pm »
OMFG!

I totally forgot about Guildenstern from Vagrant Story! He is at least in a draw against Sephie in terms of fuckedupness. I mean, the guy spends the whole game screwing around and manipulating other manipulators, cuts off Sydney's back (wtf man!) and somehow attaches it to himself just to kill his woman by throwing her off the top of the Great Cathedral in order to become a fucked up Demi-god, incarnation of the Dark and stuff  :lee: AND he is one of the toughest final bosses ever  :lee: Oh, and he goes and fucks up with Ashley's mind before the final battle as well.  :lee: Damn Guildenstern  :lee: :lee:

Theicedragon

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 05:34:37 pm »
Im surprissed no one spoke of the 10 Wise Men for Star Ocean 2.  They destroyed a planet to bring themselves back into existence for crying out loud.  How messed up was that.

grey_the_angel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 09:25:27 pm »
I put it in simple terms: in terms of going complete badass to whip the shit out of his enemies, marche does it.

I mean look at what he does for the sake of "doing the right thing"

He betrays all his friends/clan members in a way bu wanting to find a way out of the world, and in the end, having his very guild support him in destorying their world. He took away the happiness of mewt and his crippled brother, not to mention the white haired girl (don't quite remember names right now.)

He sent his brother back to the wheelchair. He took away mewts mother, made his bad the same old bitch he was in the beginning. He made the girl lose her haircolor, and her clan as well.

He literally suceeded, without exception, to what he was trying to do. bring everybody back to their problems, instead of leaving them happy and content.

You must of missed the point. Yes, Doned went back to the wheelchair. Yes, Mewt lost his mom. Yes, Ritz lost her hair color. Yes, Cid is a loser again. But the ending shows they over all their problems-Marche gained the confidence he needs to succeed in life, Mewt is no longer whiny and hurt over his dead mother and can fight back, Doned is no longer bitter about his life, Ritz accepted the beauty in her white hair and Cid is now no longer bothered about the death of his wife.

It's a game about learning how to get over problems and not escaping. Escape might make the problems get away, but that will never let you improve, never make you stronger. The journey in Ivalice taught Marche-tachi how to live and deal with problems. Marche is not an antagonist at all- he wanted to live his life without escaping. Marche is the most stable and smart of all the characters, better than even a man in his thirties or more. Marche sacrificed his own desires, he gave up on the comfort Ivalice granted him (Because it's not just Mewt who made Ivalice strong-it was Marche, Donend and Ritz as well) to deal with life's issues straight-on, and not escape. He gave up on his desires for Doned, remember? Marche sacrifices for those who matter.

As for the question- Uh, Sephiroth? With all due respect, if I were to see Kefka I'd likely laugh so hard one of my lungs would burst. If I were to see Sephiroth I'll get a stroke from the fear.
my mom thought seperoth was a gay villian who had "pretty eyelashes."

ZeaLitY

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 09:57:28 pm »
Sephiroth holds me with much allure. Sephiroth has come to represent more than his simple villainy in my mind. I am strongly attracted to FF7 on virtue of the self-will of its characters. Everyone in the game seems to be in it for his or her own ambitions, and each is morally ambiguous. Sephiroth is at the top; he is the ultimate selfish person, and has been stated by Nomura to have the strongest will of any character. Like Rock Lee, he is completed motivated towards his own goals, no matter how huge or trivial they are. And like Rock Lee, he spares no moment in achieving them. He derives his pleasure completely from the actualization of his will. That is sublime, terrifying power. Consider a non-sentient animal. It is purely instinctual, and does exactly what it pleases. Bring humans into the mix; at different stages, they obey a variety of perceptions and beliefs. Now take Sephiroth. He has ascended to a new animal-like state; his mind is completely of one will -- his own. To shed away care for everyone and also one's own personal flaw and pleasure seeking to become a pure force of will -- that is strength. And One-Winged Angel does well to illustrate exactly how raging and mighty that can be.

But if we go with most successful in pure acts of villainy, it's either Kefka or Magus. Kefka did succeed in blowing the world to absolute hell, and enjoyed a full year of tyranny (as opposed to days or weeks in other quests). And as has been said earlier in this thread, Magus started a full-fledged war on his own race just to obtain power for his self-willed revenge against Lavos. He then managed to escape all the fate and justice wished upon him by allying with the heroes and succeeding in his goal. That's the kind of moral ambiguity that proves most interesting. Now that Magus's desire is sated, should he be punished? He will not be. His actions, self-will, and genius transcend what others would do to him. He may have killed thousands, but he helped save the infinite progeny of the human race by destroying Lavos. It's not that he has to do some act of good to tip the scales back towards being a good person -- it is that he has truly changed. Would you punish him after the fact?

Sentenal

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2006, 01:20:12 am »
I think I'll go with Kefka.

Kefka was completely insane, and completely evil.  Kefka had he own little laugh, that is so classic.  The poisoning of Doma was one that fully showed me his evilness, and later on with his murdering of the emperor.  He even won for a year.  I just really enjoy the insane, evil villians.

Sephiroth would be #2.  Did Sephiroth win?  No.  I don't judge how good a villian is too heavily on success.  Sephiroth was a villian that you feared before you ever met him.  Be it the bloody trail leading to the murdered president in the Shinra building, or the Midgard Serpent that was mangled and killed, and left to rot so you can see, to Cloud's flashbacks of his exploits, Sephiroth was a villian to be feared.

Lavos...  Well, he was powerful.  He did succeed for a time.  But he didn't really have any personality, nor did he make you fear him.  That's why I don't put him up top.

ZeaLitY

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2006, 02:25:51 am »
Yes, I felt that way too. Seeing that spiked serpent blew me away; I played FF7 in 2005, remember, so I was not part of the original movement. Perhaps that will discredit fanboyism.

This has got to be the best illustration of Sephiroth, by someone named fevereon:


CronoTriggerfan

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2006, 03:49:07 am »
Now that Magus's desire is sated, should he be punished? He will not be. His actions, self-will, and genius transcend what others would do to him. He may have killed thousands, but he helped save the infinite progeny of the human race by destroying Lavos. It's not that he has to do some act of good to tip the scales back towards being a good person -- it is that he has truly changed. Would you punish him after the fact?
You forget, he CAN be punished! And as Magus sought vengeance on Lavos, others still seek vengeance on him....namely a little character known as Frog.

Lavos...  Well, he was powerful.  He did succeed for a time.  But he didn't really have any personality, nor did he make you fear him.  That's why I don't put him up top.
For a time? FOR A TIME?!?!? LAVOS SUCCEDED FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS! I think he deserves a bit more credit. To me, Lavos was terrifying; true, he may not have had a personality of his own, (or at least one that we could see from the outside,) but it was everything that he signified, and the things he caused on the surface because of that. He stood for EVERY ONE of the Seven Deadly Sins in his own way, and thus corrupted mankind for it, causing social havoc and mankind screwing itself over time and time again. Fear is a great weapon, and Lavos instilled more fear than any other SE villan just because he was there; because destruction was inevitable. That's more than Sephiroth ever did!

CTFan

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2006, 03:56:49 am »
Well, remember that Frog sort of made shaky amends with Magus. In Radical Dreamers, this is confirmed when Magus does not answer when questioned if the former wielder of the Masamune were his sworn enemy. In Crimson Echoes we're using this to interesting effect.

Hadriel

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Re: best villian in the SE universe.
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2006, 05:32:13 am »
The story (or at least the story Z and I mostly put together) is heavily Magus-oriented.  Me, I had half a mind to write him getting killed heroically in the end in a sort of Anakin Skywalker gesture as payment for his deeds.  That's actually one of the most compelling acts of self-will in film history; the Emperor brainwashed him and kept him in thrall for a whole twenty years.  Breaking out of that, even to save your own son, is probably the hardest thing Anakin ever had to do.  I think it's fair to say that positive emotions can enable self-will just as well as or better than negative emotions.  But I also think it takes self-will to realize when you've fucked up.  Following that, it takes even more self-will to do something about it.