Author Topic: A question for all you Anime fans  (Read 12165 times)

Legend of the Past

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2006, 04:40:47 am »
Hah, I'll echo Daniel's words out of the sheer irony of thinking those plays are candy raver happy. Oedipus kills his father and has sex with his mother without knowing it's her. Antigone commits suicide. Party on!

I didn't meant they were happy. I meant that they all tell you to worship Zeus and fear him and have him as your superior, or he'll strike you with a bolt of lightning and turn your wife into a horse. (/random)

Kraeon much?

Seriously, behind all their lessons of not being controlled by pride and not going against fate there's this whole stupid thing with the Gods. I can respect religion, but when I'm reading a play for my enjoyment to pass time, I don't like it when they push a God who doesn't even exist into every crack in every corner of every wall in a 500 kilometer radius.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 04:43:42 am by Legend of the Past »

cupn00dles

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2006, 09:41:24 am »
Man, Greek plays are dirtier then most manga!

Truth, indeed. I mean, take a look at Apuleius' Metamorphoses. Where else would every women in the story want to have sex with the freaking donkey?

Magus068

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2006, 09:45:45 am »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.

grey_the_angel

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2006, 08:17:23 pm »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.
Yondaime used naruto as a housing unit cause the nine tailed fox is the strongest of all the demons, and couldn't be completely destoried in a seal as orochimaru could, so he was instead locked into a newborn, naruto, in which the body could eventually get used to housing the power of the demon fox and grow with it to match the strength of the beast inside. Essentualy, Naruto was the kagebushin in Yondaime's seal, and the kagebushin in sandaime's version was the reason sandaime didn't have enough strength to completely take out orochimaru's soul (well... that and the sword through the chest. he was simply too drained from the fight.)
Considering Yondaime is Kakashi's sensai, I don't think kakashi would take much kindly to know he was played for a full my his master.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2006, 04:22:15 am »
Man, Greek plays are dirtier then most manga!

Truth, indeed. I mean, take a look at Apuleius' Metamorphoses. Where else would every women in the story want to have sex with the freaking donkey?

Heh, well, that's not exactly Greek, judging by the name, but yeah, Greek plays can be a little dirty - not the tradgedies, but the comedies*. I actually didn't finish reading Lysistrata for that reason - the amount of innuendo is insane! I struggled my way through the Latin novel The Satyricon by Petronius, though. Now there's a strange work, written by the guy that was Nero's own party-planner... before the emperor had him commit suicide, that is. It shows the real decadancy of the Romans, to say the least. It's rather a... differerent work. A novel, and feels more 'modern', as it were, than most other ancient things. It's bound to be strange when you have two washed up who-knows-what losers journeying around with a young boy who is their 'companion', and eventually meet up with a horny old poet (and a bad poet at that)... yeah. I had to read it for a Latin literature class. Sufficed to say, I was happy that we read the epic The Civil War by Lucan thereafter.

*There's a thing, though. The tragedies are not so bad as many would think. Very few deaths ever occur on stage (the only one I can think of is that of Ajax), most of it told through report, or done behind a closed door that is opened to reveal the dead. As for Oedipus, well, was it really his fault? I think Freud was foollish to call his theory an Oedipus Complex, because it was the fault of the gods, not the king, and what he did he did unknowingly - he never had any desire for his mother, not knowing it to be she+. When he learns it, he is so disgusted with himself he gouges his eyes out, blaming himself for everything. In time, however, he comes to blame the gods, and hold himself guiltless, and it seems the divinities agree: he is turned into a god when he dies - sure proof of his vindication. The point is, this is something that is treated as a sin upon which the events then build, and not a focus per say (in fact, the point that he killed his father Laius is given about as much importance.) In the end, though, the tragedies are rather clean in language and content, which is surprising when given the subjects they approach. What they do, retain, however, is a good examination of human suffering. Rarely does a tragedy turn out well (some do, however, begin tragic and end happy - Alcestis, for example, where though the wife of Alcestis dies at the beginning, it ends with Herakles wrestling Death and getting her back for his friend.) The Sophoclean hero, for example, is a very powerful figure that falls often through his own stubborness. Kreon in Antigone does as he thinks best for the country, and continues on the course regardless of all the omens telling him that he is doing wrong, and those good intentions destroy him. Ajax's mighty strength and prowess betray him over to his own anger at the other heroes, and he shames himself, for which he kills himself - a last strong act. I suppose they are almost MacBeth sorts.

+Likewise, the Electra complex is a very flimsy term, also, as Elektra is never shown to have any sort of desire for her father Agamemnon. All she ever does is harbour malice towards her mother for her having killed Agamemnon - siding with the father rather than mother, which might be a touch atypical. But to claim that she had a desire for him seems to be about as ridiculous and unfounded as saying that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. The only instance of this I can think anywhere close is in Hippolytos, where Aphrodite causes the queen to fall in love with her step-son.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 04:27:48 am by Daniel Krispin »

cupn00dles

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2006, 02:48:00 pm »
Man, Greek plays are dirtier then most manga!

Truth, indeed. I mean, take a look at Apuleius' Metamorphoses. Where else would every women in the story want to have sex with the freaking donkey?

Heh, well, that's not exactly Greek, judging by the name

Truth enough, Apuleius was actually a Roman writer.. And Metamorphoses is considered to be a picaresque Latin novel  :lee:

What I actually meant to say is that there are plenty of ancient writings with "dirtier" themes than many nowadays stuff  :lee:

Edit: I guess I should start explaining the context in which I write stuff before writing them  :?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 02:52:02 pm by cupn00dles »

grey_the_angel

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2006, 07:21:33 pm »
Man, Greek plays are dirtier then most manga!

Truth, indeed. I mean, take a look at Apuleius' Metamorphoses. Where else would every women in the story want to have sex with the freaking donkey?
tijuana for one place.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2006, 02:47:49 am »
I didn't meant they were happy. I meant that they all tell you to worship Zeus and fear him and have him as your superior, or he'll strike you with a bolt of lightning and turn your wife into a horse. (/random)

Kraeon much?

Seriously, behind all their lessons of not being controlled by pride and not going against fate there's this whole stupid thing with the Gods. I can respect religion, but when I'm reading a play for my enjoyment to pass time, I don't like it when they push a God who doesn't even exist into every crack in every corner of every wall in a 500 kilometer radius.

Just in case you check here first, Legend, I sent you a PM on the other forums. I've just been reading an increadibly good analysis of the Greek mindset (The Greek Way, by Edith Hamilton - a book from the 30s of some note, I believe), and it has really made me see the whole thing clearer. Essentially, the Greek way of thinking is the very opposite of what you say here. Greek literature is not based on soul, but on mind. On reason, rather than spirit. It is in fact the case that the Greeks, out of all ancient people (and modern as well), would NOT have fit into the category you have outlined. Their focus was in fact upon the real world, and very little upon religion, and most especially not on a religion that dominated their spirits and lives. That was the way of Egypt, and of the East, where it was spirit over mind - but that was not the Greek way. It would have been contrary to Greek thought to say 'live in fear of Zeus or he will strike you down.' Piety was lauded, of course, but it would have been impossible for a people living under such an idea and world-view to be so free-thinking, questioning, and exploratory of the world as the Greeks were. They were intellectual artists, not religious ones. After all, in Greece, the priests had almost no power. The gods existed for them, but of all people it was they who first had stubbornly independant thought.

In fact, the entire concept of this Compendium is inherently Greek. The Renessance, the earas of what we call rational thought, were not new things - they were a revival of the Greek. For that reason it is rather wrong to say that the Greeks put that much emphasis on their gods, when in fact they did so least of all peoples.

After all, they did not say 'Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom' but rather 'Knowledge of ignorance is the beginning of wisdom.' They did not say 'Stand in holy fear of the gods' but rather 'Know thyself.'
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 03:15:03 am by Daniel Krispin »

Legend of the Past

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2006, 04:04:28 pm »
Hmm, too bad it doesn't change the fact the Gods are still mentioned there.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2006, 10:45:57 pm »
Hmm, too bad it doesn't change the fact the Gods are still mentioned there.

Yes, but your critique was not based upon their mention, but on their over mention. You said they deal with the consquences of not worshipping Zeus (or, presumably, the other gods), and put the gods everywhere they can. That is what I argued against. You had said they were over-used and over-emphasised, which is not the case.

Mentioned is a far cry from being a focus, or being forced upon one as a primary theme. Gods must be mentioned - human beings are creatures that are by nature religious, if not to a god then to the concept of the self-god. It would be very difficult not to write a play without one. The important point is that in the end the focus is on humanity, and on the way people act and react in reality. That is the Greek method, more than any other. Sure, gods are mentioned, but so, too, are they in life, whenever someone says 'Jeez' or 'damn it', it is referring to god. To remove that entirely is to pretend something that is not, and is too far from reality. But it is not the gods that make Ajax insane, it is not they that drive Medea to slaughter, nor Kreon to his sense of justice. That was my point. It would be simply ludicrous to have a story without any mention of god or gods, simply because to this year the majority of the world is still religious. But, and this is what I was meaning, the Greeks never force the gods. The end theme is not that they propound the worship of god, or stress the consequence of disobediance (like, say, the Bible does.) The world-view is entirely different than our (and I mean your and mine) Judeo-Christian one.

So, yeah, the gods ARE more certainly mentioned, but what of it? Even rather secular Ecclesiastes mentions God, doesn't it? The simple fact is they are no mentioned inordinately, nor does it draw the focus away from the human.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 10:58:25 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Magus068

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2006, 08:22:13 am »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.
Yondaime used naruto as a housing unit cause the nine tailed fox is the strongest of all the demons, and couldn't be completely destoried in a seal as orochimaru could, so he was instead locked into a newborn, naruto, in which the body could eventually get used to housing the power of the demon fox and grow with it to match the strength of the beast inside. Essentualy, Naruto was the kagebushin in Yondaime's seal, and the kagebushin in sandaime's version was the reason sandaime didn't have enough strength to completely take out orochimaru's soul (well... that and the sword through the chest. he was simply too drained from the fight.)
Considering Yondaime is Kakashi's sensai, I don't think kakashi would take much kindly to know he was played for a full my his master.

Watch it again bro! The sealing jutsu was canceled! Maybe it was just a ploy so that people would think that Yondaime is dead. Maybe there's a deeper reason why he faked his death.

grey_the_angel

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2006, 03:54:28 pm »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.
Yondaime used naruto as a housing unit cause the nine tailed fox is the strongest of all the demons, and couldn't be completely destoried in a seal as orochimaru could, so he was instead locked into a newborn, naruto, in which the body could eventually get used to housing the power of the demon fox and grow with it to match the strength of the beast inside. Essentualy, Naruto was the kagebushin in Yondaime's seal, and the kagebushin in sandaime's version was the reason sandaime didn't have enough strength to completely take out orochimaru's soul (well... that and the sword through the chest. he was simply too drained from the fight.)
Considering Yondaime is Kakashi's sensai, I don't think kakashi would take much kindly to know he was played for a full my his master.

Watch it again bro! The sealing jutsu was canceled! Maybe it was just a ploy so that people would think that Yondaime is dead. Maybe there's a deeper reason why he faked his death.
you mean sandaime. and even when it fails, death still takes you.

Legend of the Past

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2006, 09:31:42 am »
ANYWAY.

To move to a slightly different topic than the original, what are your opinions (or what have you heard) about Rozen Maiden?

Magus068

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2006, 09:50:32 am »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.
Yondaime used naruto as a housing unit cause the nine tailed fox is the strongest of all the demons, and couldn't be completely destoried in a seal as orochimaru could, so he was instead locked into a newborn, naruto, in which the body could eventually get used to housing the power of the demon fox and grow with it to match the strength of the beast inside. Essentualy, Naruto was the kagebushin in Yondaime's seal, and the kagebushin in sandaime's version was the reason sandaime didn't have enough strength to completely take out orochimaru's soul (well... that and the sword through the chest. he was simply too drained from the fight.)
Considering Yondaime is Kakashi's sensai, I don't think kakashi would take much kindly to know he was played for a full my his master.

Watch it again bro! The sealing jutsu was canceled! Maybe it was just a ploy so that people would think that Yondaime is dead. Maybe there's a deeper reason why he faked his death.
you mean sandaime. and even when it fails, death still takes you.

Yes, death is inevitable but the success rate is not always 100%/

grey_the_angel

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Re: A question for all you Anime fans
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2006, 02:41:16 pm »
You have a point, I was just about to say that. So the one that sealed the nine tails can be just a kage bushin of Yondaime & thus he might still be alive using the same strategy as Sandaime used.
Yondaime used naruto as a housing unit cause the nine tailed fox is the strongest of all the demons, and couldn't be completely destoried in a seal as orochimaru could, so he was instead locked into a newborn, naruto, in which the body could eventually get used to housing the power of the demon fox and grow with it to match the strength of the beast inside. Essentualy, Naruto was the kagebushin in Yondaime's seal, and the kagebushin in sandaime's version was the reason sandaime didn't have enough strength to completely take out orochimaru's soul (well... that and the sword through the chest. he was simply too drained from the fight.)
Considering Yondaime is Kakashi's sensai, I don't think kakashi would take much kindly to know he was played for a full my his master.

Watch it again bro! The sealing jutsu was canceled! Maybe it was just a ploy so that people would think that Yondaime is dead. Maybe there's a deeper reason why he faked his death.
you mean sandaime. and even when it fails, death still takes you.

Yes, death is inevitable but the success rate is not always 100%/
that means yondaime is still dead though. like I said, that image was faked. there's almost no hint to him being still alive, other then in the minds of rabid fanboys.