Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse

[Chrono'99]

Let's go straight to the problem.

Zaperking pointed out that Lavos was most probably not defeated in 1,999 AD but in 12,000 BC, because of these infos from Chrono Cross which imply that Lavos simply never appeared in 1,999 AD in the Keystone timelines:

[Computer]
   ~
   ~
   ~~~~ -- LAVOS -- ~~~~
   ~
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   An extraterrestrial life-form
   that is thought to have
   fallen from the heavens
   65 million years ago.
   On the time line that existed
   before history was changed,
   Lavos was assumed to have
   slept deep below the planet's
   surface...
   Sleeping and consuming the
   planet's energy up until the
   day of destruction known as
   the '"Apocalypse."'
   There are those who believe
   that, 12 thousand years ago,
   the legendary ancient magical
   civilization known as Zeal
   came into contact with Lavos.
   That fateful encounter is
   said to have resulted in
   Zeal disappearing from the
   surface of the planet within
   the space of a single night.
   However, the very existence
   of the ancient civilization
   of Zeal has never been proven,
   so up till this day this
   theory cannot be confirmed.
   On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins.
   However, a group of young
   time travelers saw where
   their planet's history was
   heading and, through their
   actions, rewrote time.
   This very research facility
   exists on that new time line...
   In a world where, thanks to
   the defeat of Lavos by the
   young adventurers, the
   Apocalypse never happened...
   On a temporal vector where
   human civilization continued
   to evolve unhampered.
   All the data on Lavos that was
   obtained from tracing different
   parallel world possibilities
   has proven to be volatile, with
   fluctuating discrepencies.
   Perhaps, at this point in time,
   it is nearly impossible to
   obtain any true information
   about Lavos.

Moreover, while it was possible in Chrono Trigger to defeat Lavos either in 1,999 AD or in 12,000 BC after the Black Omen, storyline-wise it makes more sense for Lavos to be defeated in 12,000 BC, because the player is taken straight to his first form after having beat the Black Omen. It's impossible to clear the Black Omen without having to defeat this first form. After that the player can use the Time Gate in Lavos' body to return to the End of Time, but it makes no sense storyline-wise since the party would be much more inclined to finish what they've just started, i.e. to defeat Lavos entirely, rather than to "run away" and leave Lavos' shell there to either regenerate or just be there for 13,999 more years.

However, a problem appears when the Armageddon-Branch Theory is considered. This is a theory which explains why the future was destroyed in Home World:

Armageddon-Branch Theory

GrayLensman

Crono could not have defeated Lavos in Home World. The event which spares Serge's life also creates a plurality of dimensions from 1010 onwards. Since there is only one Crono in 1000 AD to defeat Lavos, only the future in Another World is saved.

Further Explanation

In the original timeline (Another World) Serge dies in 1010 AD, but Kid changes the past, somehow creating an alternate dimension in which Serge lives (Home World). Another World always existed; it is the original dimension, but Home World only extends from 1010 AD onwards. In 1000 AD, Crono exists in Another World. If he travels through time, he can only reach a destination within his own dimension. When Crono defeats Lavos in 1999 AD, or any other time, the battle takes place in Another World. In 1000 AD, there is only one version of Crono. If Crono lived past 1010 AD, there would be a version for each dimension, but that version did not travel through time to defeat Lavos. In Home World, no savior appears in 1999 AD to save the future. Serge caused the destruction of the world by spawning an alternate dimension which is beyond 1000 AD Crono's notice or reach. He does not undo any of Crono's actions. In Another World, the future is secure, at least until the Time Devourer arrives. There cannot be multiple Crono groups because there is only one dimension in 1000 AD!

As you can see, the theory assumes that Lavos was defeated in 1,999 AD. If we assume that Lavos was defeated in 12,000 BC, the theory doesn't work because there's only one 12,000 BC. Lavos would be dead in both Another and Home dimensions.

So, how do we solve this?

[Zaperking]

One must also remember that the Dead Sea is a conglomeration of more than just one timeline. So if it reflects more than one future, then it isn't reflecting Lavos destroying it. It could be different beings. Heck, the Dragon God, the TD etc.

[ZeaLitY]

It was supposed to be wholly a future in which Lavos destroyed the world. Anyhow, I'm going to look at this...the update of the analysis section begins this month.

[AuraTwilight]

My theory is that Crono and team clear the Black Omen, and the explosion semi-replicates the Ocean Palace incident and warps them to Lavos in 1999 AD.

But yea, due to Chrono'99's points, it's impossible for Lavos to die in 12,000 BC as things stand.

[Magus22]

Side related note:

Where did Crono & co. go after you defeated the drill bits and core, when you see all the time lines flashing as the whole screen turns white?

You then just wake up in your bed and everything is normal, but Crono & co. are the only ones who knew of the Lavos incident. As I recall, absolutely no one random person you talk to in CC had information about Lavos or the Black Omen. It was as if it never happened...

[Zaperking]

But yea, due to Chrono'99's points, it's impossible for Lavos to die in 12,000 BC as things stand.

Actually, he was saying that it would work, but the Armageddon Branch-Theory would not let it if we followed it.

[AuraTwilight]

Where did Crono & co. go after you defeated the drill bits and core, when you see all the time lines flashing as the whole screen turns white?

The End of Time, I'd assume.

You then just wake up in your bed and everything is normal, but Crono & co. are the only ones who knew of the Lavos incident. As I recall, absolutely no one random person you talk to in CC had information about Lavos or the Black Omen. It was as if it never happened...

Well, no one in the past knew about Lavos, and the Black Omen was probably canonically destroyed in 12,000 BC before anyone in the other eras could see it.

Actually, he was saying that it would work, but the Armageddon Branch-Theory would not let it if we followed it.

As you can see, the theory assumes that Lavos was defeated in 1,999 AD. If we assume that Lavos was defeated in 12,000 BC, the theory doesn't work because there's only one 12,000 BC. Lavos would be dead in both Another and Home dimensions.

[Magus22]

Ayla: "Ayla had strange dream. Went to Mystic Mountains. Everyone lie there, hurt. I carry back to hut."

Frog: "Magus!"

Ayla: "Yummy frog! For Ayla eat?"

Frog: "P, perish the thought, lass! By the way, whither the blue-haired one?"

Ayla: "Only find you there. Blue-hair one more tasty?"

Frog: "We hath lost him..."

Lucca: "Magus said that Lavos was born in the distant past..."

Marle: "But if Magus didn't create Lavos, where did...it...come from?"

Robo: "If Magus didn't create Lavos, then in what era was it...born?"

Ayla: "Lavos? Not worry now. You rest. Hurt bad."


Kino: "Crono, okay now? Ayla busy, look for Laruba Village. Fight
      Reptites together. Destroy Reptites or we no survive."

Voice: "Kiiiiiiiiino!"

Kino: "What happen? Quiet! Crono rest."

Villager: "North wood burning!!!"

Ayla seemed to have heard of Lavos. I don't know if Azala knew a "name" to give the red star, but the name Ayla described found its way to Zeal without any grammatical changes. The word "Lavos" was passed down for millions and millions of years. A unique name for a unique being. After the Zeal incident, however, the word "Lavos" ceased to exist, only known to some critical characters in the game.

Was Lavos's name determined before 65,000,000BC or was it made up right then and there when it finally made its descent on Earth?

[inode]

This is just a shot in the dark, but perhaps the heroes didn't really defeat Lavos in CT, or rather, when they defeated Lavos, perhaps it pulled itself into the darkness beyond time and merged with Schala as an aversion to its eminent destruction. 

[Chrono'99]

Ayla seemed to have heard of Lavos. I don't know if Azala knew a "name" to give the red star, but the name Ayla described found its way to Zeal without any grammatical changes. The word "Lavos" was passed down for millions and millions of years. A unique name for a unique being. After the Zeal incident, however, the word "Lavos" ceased to exist, only known to some critical characters in the game.

Was Lavos's name determined before 65,000,000BC or was it made up right then and there when it finally made its descent on Earth?

Ayla invented the name, it just means "big fire" in some ancient language (Ayla folks are not stupid, they know more than one language!).

But... what does it have to do with the topic?

[AuraTwilight]

This is just a shot in the dark, but perhaps the heroes didn't really defeat Lavos in CT, or rather, when they defeated Lavos, perhaps it pulled itself into the darkness beyond time and merged with Schala as an aversion to its eminent destruction.

Yea, but we watch him die. Because he dies, Lavos' future self from 1999 AD and onward goes to the DBT, to merge with Schala.

[Magus22]

Ayla invented the name, it just means "big fire" in some ancient language (Ayla folks are not stupid, they know more than one language!).

But... what does it have to do with the topic?

No you're right. But a couple posts of mine ago, I put in a quick "side related note" that resulted in this mini discussion. It won't happen again here.

This is just a shot in the dark, but perhaps the heroes didn't really defeat Lavos in CT, or rather, when they defeated Lavos, perhaps it pulled itself into the darkness beyond time and merged with Schala as an aversion to its eminent destruction.

Yea, but we watch him die. Because he dies, Lavos' future self from 1999 AD and onward goes to the DBT, to merge with Schala.

It does die, yes. I wonder in the end, when you do defeat him and the screen goes white, if he sent out some homing signal to his area of space or something... (hint: new Chrono game )

[AuraTwilight]

Erm...how about a time warp that warped them home like implied? Lavos doesn't give a shit about his other race, too. If he even knows they exist.

[ZeaLitY]

Okay, so we are changing Generally Accepted Compendium Principles to state that Lavos was defeated in 12000 B.C. We've got a fifth Chrono Trigger plot hole and one Chrono Cross plot hole as a result, but they cannot be avoided. I'll explain.

Chrono Trigger Plot Hole #5

Crono decides to change history after seeing Lavos emerge on the Day of Lavos recording. Lavos emerging is an act of time travel under the Pocket Dimension theory, giving him immunity under Time Traveler's Immunity. This means Lavos would always emerge in 1999 A.D. even if defeated in 12000 B.C. We know that even after being defeated Chronopolis would have a record of it as a result, but this isn't the case. The world would also be destroyed, just as Zeal is always destroyed whether Lavos is dead or alive. So we've got two possibilities.

1. The plot is inconsistent because Lavos should erupt in 1999 A.D.
2. There is no Pocket Dimesion, making the plot inconsistent when you defeat the shell in 1999 A.D. and confront Lavos in 12000 B.C. only to find he has no shell.

Pocket Dimension theory explains an awful lot of material, so I'm gravitating towards number one. You also might say it is a Chrono Cross plot hole since that's where they discuss it (in Chronopolis), but keep in mind that if you beat Lavos in 12000 B.C., the world is still saved whereas PD dictates he should still erupt in 1999 A.D. That establishes this as Chrono Trigger's problem.

Chrono Cross Plot Hole #1

Before writing this, we'd have to re-examine all Dead Sea material and search for the truth of why Serge's existence causes that future to come back into existence. Wow, do I ever love the Dead Sea. I am not joking when I call it the biggest enigma of the Chrono series.

[Chrono'99]

This sounds like a desperate assumption, but maybe Zeal isn't always destroyed? We don't time travel in CT after we defeat Lavos, so maybe 12,000 BC is different? Perhaps Chronopolis is right in thinking that Zeal didn't exist at all (didn't exist in the post-Lavos timeline). Chronopolis does have a few legends about it, but those legends might come from Mystic lore, assuming Magus mentioned it in 600 AD, or even from Belthasar himself.