Author Topic: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse  (Read 10820 times)

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2006, 01:41:31 pm »
Well, the Frozen Flame still boasts about destroying Zeal ten thousand years ago, right?

Chrono'99

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3605
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2006, 02:33:05 pm »
It destroyed the Zeal which Kid/Schala came from, even if it's from the previous timeline... mmh, argh, it's really complicated to think about all that at the same time.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2006, 03:26:06 pm »
Hm...I'm trying to think of Zeal's influence without being checked by TTI, and I've got it. The Chronopolis scene shows icebergs but also a blue sky, which helps confirm it as taking place after Zeal fell in 12000 B.C. It's too much of a coincidence that the ice age storm stopped in 12000 B.C. in both timelines.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 04:00:13 pm »
I still don't see why Lavos has to be defeated in 12,000 BC.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 04:19:17 pm »
He's never seen anywhere else, and he wouldn't be seen by anyone in 12000 B.C. as he seemed to appear from the ocean.

AuraTwilight

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1524
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2006, 11:28:03 am »
Well, didn't that Chronopolis report say he was defeated in 1999 AD?

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2006, 06:40:05 pm »
Quite the contraty.

Chronpolis stated that a group of travellers was going through time, saving the world. They destroyed Lavos, who never even got the chance to come out of the Earth in 1999AD. Because there are no records of him, Chronpolis believes that they will truely not be able to assess his nature because of this. By looking in the Dead Sea, Chronopolis discovered that yes, Chronopolis was built on a new future and that Lavos did exist once long ago.

I had always believes a long time ago (I even posted it), that Lavos was destroyed in 12,000BC through the Black Omen. It wouldn't just appear out of nowhere. And if Lavos was destroyed in 1999AD only, then remenants of the Black Omen would exist. Not to mention the fact that we know the Flame did not perish, but went back into the ocean.

Also, Chronopolis said that they found a road or something in the ocean, makes me think that it was a road in the Black Omen (a path I mean) because Zeal didn't really have roads.. Or am I just day dreaming O.o

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2006, 06:51:36 pm »
Well, it doesn't look like this can constitute a plot hole quite yet (on the Chrono Cross side of things), mainly because even though it is unexplained, it does not actively contradict anything else by that count. I hope I don't appear pro-Chrono Cross or somethin ghere, but the policy has been and will continue to be rigid: plot holes, as defined by the dictionary, are only contradictions. We don't have a contradiction here as much as we simply have a mystery, like much of the rest of the Dead Sea.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2006, 01:11:28 am »
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_Paradox_%28Reasons_for%29.html

There. It could work if Lavos's PD-1 is taken out of the equation, but that leaves us with the plot hole of his shell. So there's no attractive way out of this, and since Pocket Dimension theory works for the EoT and other areas, we should give it precedence over the shell plot hole.

Lena Andreia

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • Radical Dreamer
    • View Profile
    • Chrono Ark Forums
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2006, 03:31:57 am »
Quote
My theory is that Crono and team clear the Black Omen, and the explosion semi-replicates the Ocean Palace incident and warps them to Lavos in 1999 AD.

That's actually how I always thought it happened to. It's more stirring from a dramatic point of view, too. (The world is doomed, the heroes show up at the last moment to save the day, ect)

But I guess you can get around the paradox with the shell if you figure this--

Time is relative depending on the being. For a butterfly, a day can seem infintely long. To a star, our lives flash by like motes. If Lavos's powers were strong enough, its own reality could cause a sort of bubble, that slows time for it, and makes the rest of history just fly by. So, in essance, no matter where you access it from, you're fighting it in its own relative space. It's not another physical dimension persay, but whenever you travel to Lavos, it's the "present", for Lavos. This could also be what Queen Zeal was seeking, as Lavos's relative space would allow her (and the Black Omen) to last forever, as time for her would be slowed to Lavos's own relative time. And Lavos never gets to truly attack, because no matter where you're attacking him from, you're getting him in his own relative space. Sooo, when you appear in 1999 AD, kill the shell, and then decide to go back to 12000 BC to finish off the Black Omen, for Lavos, relatively speaking, time hasn't passed. When you return to him, you're returning mere seconds after you first defeated him, which is why he hasn't prepared a massive arsenal to kill you with.

The Frozen Flame seems to illustrate this too, as in the Dead Sea, it froze all those Acacia Dragoons. They might not be frozen and dead, but might just be caught in Lavos's relative flow of time--and thus to us look like they're standing still.

AND, this also could explain why in the Black Omen, if you enter the Omen in 1000 AD or 600 AD, when you defeat it its 12000 BC. (I remember I did that once just to see if Lavos would erupt on the present day map, but he didn't. XD) If time inside the Black Omen is relative to Lavos, then it's still 12000 BC inside, no matter what time it is outside. So you actually defeated the innards of the Black Omen and brought it down before time inside had progressed that much further beyond 12000 BC. It sort of "pops the reality bubble". Queen Zeal is probably capable of monitoring what time it is outside, while she's able to stay in her lovely little infinite fortress, where time moves slow enough for her to retain her youth while history flies by in an instant.

...but then when you have that little dude warp you out of the Black Omen if you get tired, does it take you to 12000 BC, or the time period from where you entered originally...? I never warped out--

Oh God, I think I broke my brain. I bet none of that insanity made sense, or I just totally described the pocket dimension. (Wee for unncessary ideas!) XD If I did describe something that's already been said, forgive me--I've read so many articles lately that they're overlapping in my mind. LOL

Anyway, my crazy theories aside, getting around the whole "Lavos died in 12000 BC" thing has been interesting for our project. As always, I really thank you guys for figuring this stuff out. LOL This is the kind of stuff that I miss while play, and I'm completely fixated on fitting the canon as much as possible, so I'd hate to get something this huge wrong. I have figured it out thanks to your musings though-- (It nearly killed me, but I think I did it. Yay for staying true to the canon! And don't worry--it has NOTHING to do with the craziness mentioned above. I'm assuming he WAS defeated in 12000 BC.). Now, to deal with a few other things...

(Resumes massively studying the insane Cross twists--these make my brain hurt)

Flarestar89

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2006, 11:16:18 pm »
Quote

...but then when you have that little dude warp you out of the Black Omen if you get tired, does it take you to 12000 BC, or the time period from where you entered originally...? I never warped out--

I have. It takes you to the entrance of the Black Omen in whatever period you came from.

Quote
"My theory is that Crono and team clear the Black Omen, and the explosion semi-replicates the Ocean Palace incident and warps them to Lavos in 1999 AD."

Kind of close to what I think.


 I posted this on another board after I read the armageddon theory, because I believe it to be correct.

The only way Lavos can be defeated in 12000 BC is if you kill him at the time in which Chrono would die. As far as I am aware, this is not the ending to Chrono Trigger that is acknowledged in Cross. Actually, is it even an ending? Someone on my other post said it was, but I am not certain. I think it might be impossible.

The Black Omen always transports you to 1999. I know because if you take the warp next to the save point out, it takes you to the bucket at the end of time. And well, the bucket has been said to take you to 1999.  Lavos dies in 1999.

I think Cross just words things badly.  The "ideal" way to end Trigger is by using the Omen during the time of Zeal. I hate to use ideal... but the most natural ending. Does that make any sense? What the game leads you to, so to speak. The ending that Cross acknowledges. So, technically the crew would've began their trip to off Lavos during that time period, even though he dies later. Again, bad wording?

Flarestar89

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2006, 01:58:44 pm »
According to the article on this site for endings, the ending received for destroying Lavos in 15000 BC is the developer's rooms at the End of Time.

Of course, that still assumes that Lavos was actually defeated in that time period. Whenever you fight Lavos, it appears that it is in "the pocket dimension" that is spoken about again on this site. I don't remember the exact name given to it. The only gate in the game seen to take you to Lavos is that of 1999, again enforcing that Lavos can only be killed in 1999.

It's the only scenario that allows the Sea of Eden to make sense, pretty much. In fact, it allows the Sea of Eden to make perfect sense, and it clarifies a lot of Chrono Cross.


Is it possible that the computers and Chronopolis were incorrect?



Hopefully someone will post on this again someday soon, heh.

Zaperking

  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2210
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2006, 06:34:07 pm »
According to the article on this site for endings, the ending received for destroying Lavos in 15000 BC is the developer's rooms at the End of Time.

Of course, that still assumes that Lavos was actually defeated in that time period. Whenever you fight Lavos, it appears that it is in "the pocket dimension" that is spoken about again on this site. I don't remember the exact name given to it. The only gate in the game seen to take you to Lavos is that of 1999, again enforcing that Lavos can only be killed in 1999.

It's the only scenario that allows the Sea of Eden to make sense, pretty much. In fact, it allows the Sea of Eden to make perfect sense, and it clarifies a lot of Chrono Cross.


Is it possible that the computers and Chronopolis were incorrect?

Hopefully someone will post on this again someday soon, heh.

15,000 BC? WTF?

No, Chronopolis cannot be wrong. Chronopolis studied all of the future, and the past. Heck, the world Chronopolis was born into did not have any records of Lavos or Zeal, period, and only found out about Lavos from the Dead Sea records most likely. They did state that those kids travelling through time stopped Armageddon from happening, and hence, Lavos never rose. Heck, if Chronopolis knew about Lavos, we'd probably have another Zeal disaster with someone using the flame to extract energy from Lavos, even though he's dead.

Daid

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 144
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2006, 06:28:02 am »
Reading this thread has made my head hurt...

Flarestar89

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2006, 11:01:58 am »
I think the Armageddon-Branch theory is correct, because the idea seems to be supported in Chrono Cross.

I think we are misinterpreting what is said in Chrono Cross.

As I look over it again...

   "On the time line that existed
   before history was changed,
   Lavos was assumed to have
   slept deep below the planet's
   surface..."

If, in what I saw before, you kill Lavos underground if you use the Black Omen, then you kill Lavos before he surfaces, and Chronopolis might not be aware that he sleeps under the ground.




"  On some time lines, Lavos
   appeared on the surface of
   the planet in the year 1999
   and brought the world to
   ruins."


Point: Lavos didn't necessarily apprear on the surface of the planet to beat him, did he? He's show on the surface of the planet if you take the bucket, but if you defeat him with the Black Omen (or use the bucket after defeating the Black Omen) you are underground. No surface of the planet.

Second point: It says "brought the world to ruins."  This would refer to the timeline represented by 2300 AD. If you had defeated Lavos, the world would not have been brought to ruins. That's the point of defeating Lavos.

It is not saying that in some timelines Lavos was defeated in 1999, but that in some timelines, Lavos CAUSED DESTRUCTION TO THE EARTH in 1999. We know this is clearly not the timeline represented by killing Lavos at any point in Chrono Trigger, because the point of killing Lavos is for the world to not be in ruins.

"   Perhaps, at this point in time,
   it is nearly impossible to
   obtain any true information
   about Lavos."

"No, Chronopolis cannot be wrong. Chronopolis studied all of the future, and the past. Heck, the world Chronopolis was born into did not have any records of Lavos or Zeal, period, and only found out about Lavos from the Dead Sea records most likely. "

~Zaperking (I'm sorry, I tried to quote but it kind of died, and I'm in a bit of a hurry.)


He claimed that Chronopolis knew all of time. Okay, well then how come they can't look to Lavos BEFORE Chrono and crew killed him? It wouldn't be hard, even if he was defeated in 15000 BC, he's been there since 65 Million BC. So he's been underground, you say? They could still research is as he falls in 65 mil BC. They could still check out what Chrono and crew said about him throughout history. IF they actually know ALL of history, then they should know.

"There are those who believe
   that, 12 thousand years ago,
   the legendary ancient magical
   civilization known as Zeal
   came into contact with Lavos."

Again a point that Chronopolis does not know all of history: if they knew it all, Zeal would not be a legend, because Zeal did exist, though of course at some point it did fall. That's like saying Chronopolis shouldn't know anything about anyone living in the past, because at some point they did die. In any timeline which Lavos was killed, Zeal still existed.

AND THE MOST MAJOR POINT OF ALL, WHICH NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO YET!


AND AGAIN! After defeating the Black Omen, you are TAKEN TO 1999!!! I warped out back to the end of time, and to warp back in, you take the bucket to 1999. Hence, even if you use the black Omen, Lavos is killed in 1999.

The only way to kill Lavos in 12000 BC (I typo'd with 15000 back there, sorry) is if you kill him during the Ocean Palace incident. And this is plot interrupting, cutting off a large portion of the game.


I'm still not sure if this would cause him to be killed in 12000 BC though, because it's possible you are warped to a different spot.

In fact, the ending to defeating him here is merely "The Dream Project", or developer rooms. No plot.

I don't think this is the ending represented in Chrono Cross, because it cuts out a large amount of game, especially the development of the characters with the sidequests.