Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse

[Chrono'99]

Chrono Trigger Plot Hole #5

Crono decides to change history after seeing Lavos emerge on the Day of Lavos recording. Lavos emerging is an act of time travel under the Pocket Dimension theory, giving him immunity under Time Traveler's Immunity. This means Lavos would always emerge in 1999 A.D. even if defeated in 12000 B.C. We know that even after being defeated Chronopolis would have a record of it as a result, but this isn't the case. The world would also be destroyed, just as Zeal is always destroyed whether Lavos is dead or alive. So we've got two possibilities.

1. The plot is inconsistent because Lavos should erupt in 1999 A.D.
2. There is no Pocket Dimesion, making the plot inconsistent when you defeat the shell in 1999 A.D. and confront Lavos in 12000 B.C. only to find he has no shell.

Pocket Dimension theory explains an awful lot of material, so I'm gravitating towards number one. You also might say it is a Chrono Cross plot hole since that's where they discuss it (in Chronopolis), but keep in mind that if you beat Lavos in 12000 B.C., the world is still saved whereas PD dictates he should still erupt in 1999 A.D. That establishes this as Chrono Trigger's problem.

We're assuming that a Pocket Dimension is an "area of space outside the timeline" (I'm quoting Leebot), but maybe the PD area is actually still a part of the timeline? If we look at it from the inside, the PD has particular properties like Time-Error etc., but if we look at it from an external point of view, perhaps it's just a totally normal place within the main timeline (rather than outside or next of it). I mean, if a dimension is a bubble, then a PD would be a bubble in a bigger bubble.

If so, then perhaps exiting or entering the PD doesn't constitute time travel? This might explain why Lavos's 1999 AD eruption is prevented when he exits his PD in 12,000 BC and is defeated there.

[ZeaLitY]

That sounds good. I guess now the task is finding out whether that might have any further ramafications. So far, it looks good...going back in 12000 B.C. would still give you a defeated shell.

[Chrono'99]

In any case, I'm not sure but I think there's a flaw in the Armageddon-Branch Theory even if Lavos had been defeated in 1999 AD. The theory states there are two dimensions in 1999 AD and only one Crono to time-travel and save the world, since he comes from the unique 1000 AD. ...But then why are there two Lavoses in 1999 AD to begin with, if Lavos came from the unique pocket dimension?

[AuraTwilight]

Because the Pocket Dimension is part of the Timeline?

[ZeaLitY]

By their very definition, Pocket Dimensions exist in Time Error. The only way around this would be to make a smaller class of pocket dimension subject to regular history, but...I don't know. That's opening a can of worms.

[Chrono'99]

Yeah, that's pretty complicated. I think Flarestar89 probably has the best and most straightforward theory though, as it safely avoids this PD redefinition: the party encounters Lavos in 12,000 BC after the Black Omen, but Lavos then shifts his Pocket Dimension to 1,999 AD just before (or during) the battle against him. The Gate in Lavos' shell always leads to the bucket in the End of Time, so it's good evidence. And since in this scenario the battle takes place entirely in the PD (before Lavos launches a first wave of Destruction Rain), Chronopolis has no record of it even though it was "connected" to 1,999 AD. This probably removes one plot-hole from the list.

[ZeaLitY]

So will that be the answer? Lavos is defeated in 1999 A.D.? We have solid evidence since leaving results in exiting the 1999 A.D. bucket, and this might let us avoid...creating half Time Error Pocket Dimensions or other things. But I need a second opinion.

[Kyronea]

So will that be the answer? Lavos is defeated in 1999 A.D.? We have solid evidence since leaving results in exiting the 1999 A.D. bucket, and this might let us avoid...creating half Time Error Pocket Dimensions or other things. But I need a second opinion.

It makes logical sense. 1999 A.D. is the true focal point of all of Lavos' activities, and is the height of his power. He would want to face the Heroes of Time in 1999 A.D. regardless of the time period they destroyed the Black Omen. Furthermore, we must accept this as game fact rather than trying to explain it away with our own theories, because we enter into dangerous territory in doing so. Our theories are sound and solid for the most part, but we needn't make that crucial mistake.

No matter how you access Lavos, if you ever return to the End of Time you always return from the 1999 A.D. bucket. Therefore, Lavos is defeated in 1999 A.D.

[Zaperking]

So will that be the answer? Lavos is defeated in 1999 A.D.? We have solid evidence since leaving results in exiting the 1999 A.D. bucket, and this might let us avoid...creating half Time Error Pocket Dimensions or other things. But I need a second opinion.

It makes logical sense. 1999 A.D. is the true focal point of all of Lavos' activities, and is the height of his power. He would want to face the Heroes of Time in 1999 A.D. regardless of the time period they destroyed the Black Omen. Furthermore, we must accept this as game fact rather than trying to explain it away with our own theories, because we enter into dangerous territory in doing so. Our theories are sound and solid for the most part, but we needn't make that crucial mistake.

No matter how you access Lavos, if you ever return to the End of Time you always return from the 1999 A.D. bucket. Therefore, Lavos is defeated in 1999 A.D.

I'm pretty for that for consistency, the Black Omen has to be destroyed in 12,000BC, otherwise the rest of time would view it and assume that it was always there. Hence, there would be records, Chronopolis would have them and they would know that Zeal existed, that it wasn't just a myth.

[Kyronea]

I'm pretty for that for consistency, the Black Omen has to be destroyed in 12,000BC, otherwise the rest of time would view it and assume that it was always there. Hence, there would be records, Chronopolis would have them and they would know that Zeal existed, that it wasn't just a myth.

Indeed. As such, the Black Omen is destroyed in 12,000 B.C., but Crono and the gang are sent to Lavos in 1999 A.D. and kill him there.

[Chrono'99]

The Black Omen was destroyed in 12000 BC because of all we said.

As for Lavos, I've just checked something in the game, and it's a little strange... When you clear the Black Omen in 12000 BC, Lavos is shown erupting on the ocean, then the party fights him in his blue wavy pocket dimension. But if you lose the battle at this point, the Day of Lavos bad ending is shown! Lavos is shown erupted (already on the surface, see attachment) on the 1999 AD world map, and the Arris Director sequence is shown.

The fact which is disturbing me is that if you lose in that scenario, Lavos is shown already erupted on the 1999 AD ground... With this BIG hole on the ground, Chronopolis and even the people of 1999 AD should have records and evidences of his existence.

The only explanation I can see (besides the "gameplay" explanation), is that maybe Lavos erupts on the ground only if you lose to him. If you don't lose to him, he would still be in 1999 AD because of the bucket Gate, but apparently under the ground or still totally inside his pocket dimension. The disturbing thing is that you don't see him erupt from underground, you see him already emerged on that island with a big magmatic hole.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kyronea]

The Black Omen was destroyed in 12000 BC because of all we said.

Yes, we know that...we were simply restating it...or so I was, at least.

As for Lavos, I've just checked something in the game, and it's a little strange... When you clear the Black Omen in 12000 BC, Lavos is shown erupting on the ocean, then the party fights him in his blue wavy pocket dimension. But if you lose the battle at this point, the Day of Lavos bad ending is shown! Lavos is shown erupted (already on the surface, see attachment) on the 1999 AD world map, and the Arris Director sequence is shown.

It disturbs me somewhat as well, and provides possible proof that you fight Lavos in 1999 A.D...it's possible he only erupts on the surface of the ocean so he can draw Crono and friends back into the Pocket Dmension, from which point they are fighting in 1999 A.D.

The fact which is disturbing me is that if you lose in that scenario, Lavos is shown already erupted on the 1999 AD ground... With this BIG hole on the ground, Chronopolis and even the people of 1999 AD should have records and evidences of his existence.

Right, but obviously this did not actually occur, precisely because Chronopolis had no evidence of Lavos' existance.

The only explanation I can see (besides the "gameplay" explanation), is that maybe Lavos erupts on the ground only if you lose to him. If you don't lose to him, he would still be in 1999 AD because of the bucket Gate, but apparently under the ground or still totally inside his pocket dimension. The disturbing thing is that you don't see him erupt from underground, you see him already emerged on that island with a big magmatic hole.

I call gameplay on this one...we're simply seeing a slightly shortened version of the bad ending because it's the only one they bothered to create. It starts up at that specific point regardless of when you start fighting Lavos and lose to him(apart from the required story loss at the Ocean Palace.) As such, I think we can safely say he only erupted after Crono and gang lost, because there is nothing to show otherwise, and at least one piece of evidence--the Chronopolis lack of evidence of Lavos--to support this.

[Zaperking]

Hmm, does anyone know if the spot where Lavos emerges in Zeal is the same spot that he emerges in 1999AD?

I was just going to say, how about if you lose to Lavos in 12,000BC, then the creator stays under the ocean and is like a mountain till 1999AD, as if it was always there for the people. Howerver, then in 1999AD, Lavos just climbs out of the creator and does his little thing O.o

Oh, and the most plausible explanation for this is that the CT team were a bit careless, thats the simples explanation lol. But we here at the Compendium have to make things much more complicated, don't we now?

[ZeaLitY]

I think we are forfeited to gameplay too. The way it is all programmed...and the fact that it is this late in the game probably mean the developers did not try too hard to make things internally consistent with abstract principles of time. Just like Lavos's shell existing at the Ocean Palace, so too is this a gameplay check against the Pocket Dimension. I am unsure what to do. I will have to review all the sources.

[Kyronea]

I think we are forfeited to gameplay too. The way it is all programmed...and the fact that it is this late in the game probably mean the developers did not try too hard to make things internally consistent with abstract principles of time. Just like Lavos's shell existing at the Ocean Palace, so too is this a gameplay check against the Pocket Dimension. I am unsure what to do. I will have to review all the sources.

Are you talking about how it is possible to defeat Lavos' shell then see the shell at the Ocean Palace after you've defeated it? Nuh-uh. That's not a check against anything, and here's why:

We have to stop looking at things from a gameplay perspective for a moment and concentrate purely on the storyline itself. Would Crono and the gang have been powerful enough at that time to achieve this, judging solely by storyline events? No. They lost to Lavos at the Ocean Palace, so they could not have possibly defeated the shell prior to that event, or else they would have defeated Lavos at the Ocean Palace. The only way gameplay wise one could do it is to overlevel ridiculously, or abuse the Lifeline triple tech, neither of which are true representation of events.

As such, we have no choice but to conclude that as the shell is, storyline-wise, undefeatable prior to the Ocean Palace, there is no problem. We are making a mountain out of a gameplay molehill on this one.