Armageddon-Branch and the Apocalypse

[ZeaLitY]

Well, even with Flarestar's definition, Lavos has come out of the Pocket Dimension at least once. The 12000 B.C. thing always suggested to me that Lavos was coming out right then and there to challenge Crono since the Black Omen's defeat had probably signified that humanity was advanced enough to pose a threat. I mean, is there...

...any way that fighting him in the Pocket Dimension could mean preventing the eruption? Lavos just couldn't have TTI in that case, or Chronopolis and others would notice the hole. This is difficult. We know TTI exists for Time Error spaces. We know that Zeal...wait, do we have two topics running? I think someone postulated that maybe Zeal doesn't always fall. But I guess then we wouldn't have someone ostensibly from Medina in Chronopolis, and neither would the magical civilization be spoken of as "legendary".

Wait, is that Lavos speech at Chronopolis really exclusive? They say all information was gleaned from other possibilities, but if Crono and the gang challenged and defeated Lavos immediately, then it's very possible that they still could not have gotten any information on him. A big magmatic hole wouldn't matter, and neither would it help anyone to learn of Lavos. Unless we can find really specific dialogue to the contrary, I don't think 1999 A.D.'s eruption and Chronopolis's lack of knowledge are mutually exclusive.

That leaves Flarestar's definition -- that Lavos shifted his Pocket Dimension to 1999 A.D.? Can this be viable?

[Kyronea]

Given what we know, I have to say that yes, it is viable. You're right...a large magmatic hole, while somewhat problematic, especially for Medina, is not evidence of the existance of anything except what it is, a large magmatic hole, which could have been formed just as easily by pressure rather than Lavos. Presumeably they are able to measure geological stresses so they would know for some time that something big was going to happen, but they don't know what is causing it, and if there's just a hole with nothing in it, then the problem is solved: no evidence of Lavos remains, and everything syncs up fine and dandy.

[CyberSarkany]

[...]The only way gameplay wise one could do it is to overlevel ridiculously, or abuse the Lifeline triple tech, neither of which are true representation of events.[...]

Nope, you don't need to be over leveled(not sure what it means for you) or use lifeline, it's just strategy and a decent amount of techs/levels. Oceans-Palace Lavos is just a challenge and not supposed to be beaten by "ordinary" gamers in the normal playthrough, and that's why killing him there is not regarded as storyline stuff.

[Kyronea]

Nope, you don't need to be over leveled(not sure what it means for you) or use lifeline, it's just strategy and a decent amount of techs/levels. Oceans-Palace Lavos is just a challenge and not supposed to be beaten by "ordinary" gamers in the normal playthrough, and that's why killing him there is not regarded as storyline stuff.

Irrelevant. Storyline wise Lavos' shell was undefeatable for Crono and friends at the point of the Ocean Palace, souped-up stats or no, and as such we must presume it would have been impossible for them to defeat the shell before hand as well. Plot logic, my friend. Do not allow gameplay mechanics to override what occurs in the plot.

[Zaperking]

Irrelevant. Storyline wise Lavos' shell was undefeatable for Crono and friends at the point of the Ocean Palace, souped-up stats or no, and as such we must presume it would have been impossible for them to defeat the shell before hand as well. Plot logic, my friend. Do not allow gameplay mechanics to override what occurs in the plot.

Do you know how hard I battled for that point a long time ago, and they never admitted my victory. -.-
It's also the same that just because Crono and co defeated Lavos doesn't mean somebody else can't defeat them. People argued that Lucca must have not fought her best against Lynx as an excuse to her demise -.-

[CyberSarkany]

Nope, you don't need to be over leveled(not sure what it means for you) or use lifeline, it's just strategy and a decent amount of techs/levels. Oceans-Palace Lavos is just a challenge and not supposed to be beaten by "ordinary" gamers in the normal playthrough, and that's why killing him there is not regarded as storyline stuff.

Irrelevant. Storyline wise Lavos' shell was undefeatable for Crono and friends at the point of the Ocean Palace, souped-up stats or no, and as such we must presume it would have been impossible for them to defeat the shell before hand as well. Plot logic, my friend. Do not allow gameplay mechanics to override what occurs in the plot.

That's what I meant. Storyline wise they didn't and couldn't defeat him(otherwise the story would end there or take a totally different direction), and that's why they aren't supposed to defeat him gameplay wise(they=the "ordinary" gamer I talked about). It is possible gameplay wise, but not storywise, that's why you get the dream team ending if you do so.

[Kyronea]

That's what I meant. Storyline wise they didn't and couldn't defeat him(otherwise the story would end there or take a totally different direction), and that's why they aren't supposed to defeat him gameplay wise(they=the "ordinary" gamer I talked about). It is possible gameplay wise, but not storywise, that's why you get the dream team ending if you do so.

Oh. Score one for my lack of reading comprehension.

Do you know how hard I battled for that point a long time ago, and they never admitted my victory. -.-
It's also the same that just because Crono and co defeated Lavos doesn't mean somebody else can't defeat them. People argued that Lucca must have not fought her best against Lynx as an excuse to her demise -.-

She didn't. She was in a burning building, suddenly taken by surprise, without her weapons by her side. Her fire magic would have been useless because she was surrounded by flames already and by the time she could have reacted she was probably already knocked out, given that Lynx was intending to kidnap her at the time and not kill her.

[Zaperking]

She didn't. She was in a burning building, suddenly taken by surprise, without her weapons by her side. Her fire magic would have been useless because she was surrounded by flames already and by the time she could have reacted she was probably already knocked out, given that Lynx was intending to kidnap her at the time and not kill her.

Actually, I'd have to say the exact opposite. She'd have the upper hand. Since her innate is fire magic, she'd probably be able to control the fire and just engulf Lynx in it, besides she has mad gun skills and she knew that she might one day be attacked, so she'd probably keep a gun on her/many places in the house, even if it's an orphanage. She would protect her kids at all costs.

[Chrono'99]

Actually, I'd have to say the exact opposite. She'd have the upper hand. Since her innate is fire magic, she'd probably be able to control the fire and just engulf Lynx in it, besides she has mad gun skills and she knew that she might one day be attacked, so she'd probably keep a gun on her/many places in the house, even if it's an orphanage. She would protect her kids at all costs.

Totally illogical. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. The statement "Lucca can control fire" is utterly baseless, not to mention Lucca invented an Ice Gun precisely for these kinds of accidents. As for keeping real guns in many places in the house... Come on! it's an orphanage! She'd be awfully careless to put guns at children's disposal.

Lucca is powerful, but she never fought anyone alone by herself. She always had one or two heroes of time to fight alongside her. In 1,015 AD, the situation was reversed for the first time. She was alone, and Lynx had the 7th Dragon God herself with him, an army of Lava Boys with him, and a bunch of children to take in hostages or as human shields.

EDIT: And don't forget the glasses. It's hard to shoot fireballs accurately when you're short-sighted and your glasses are lying broken on the floor.

[Zaperking]

Totally illogical. You don't fight fire with fire, you fight it with water. The statement "Lucca can control fire" is utterly baseless, not to mention Lucca invented an Ice Gun precisely for these kinds of accidents. As for keeping real guns in many places in the house... Come on! it's an orphanage! She'd be awfully careless to put guns at children's disposal.

It's a different thing when Lucca controls magical fire, not real fire. And I'm not even saying she put it out. The fact is that she could summon fire on Lynx at any moment and own him, and it's not baseless unless you're denying her of her innate >_>
Secondly, the point of an ice gun would probably serve better for her kids to use incase a fire started, and Lucca was away, or if Lucca had a little fire somewhere.
And as for keeping guns - Lucca was making guns and selling them to poor -.- Where else do you think she held her inventions. An orphanage is a totally great idea where to hide your stuff and not have the government know that you're making stuff behind their back. And the fact that Lucca would hide them makes sure that it wouldn't be at the children's disposal. Lucca knows that people are after her, so she'd probably even have one on her.

Lucca is powerful, but she never fought anyone alone by herself. She always had one or two heroes of time to fight alongside her. In 1,015 AD, the situation was reversed for the first time. She was alone, and Lynx had the 7th Dragon God herself with him, an army of Lava Boys with him, and a bunch of children to take in hostages or as human shields.

True, true. But that only supports my idea that Crono and co aren't invincible because that was my argument after all.
As for Harle, she probably didn't have anything to do with it. Kid stood there and watched the whole event, and never did she say that she wanted revenge upon Harle; only on Lynx.
As for the children, the majority were in other rooms, only Kid was in that room where Lucca was, and it doesn't seem like Lynx to use hostages or human shields when he fights so independently, knowing that he is strong (think back to Fort Dragonia)

EDIT: And don't forget the glasses. It's hard to shoot fireballs accurately when you're short-sighted and your glasses are lying broken on the floor.

Umm, I had always assumed that her glasses were lying broken on the floor after she was kidnapped/defeated. Unless Lynx was very powerful and like hit her in the face and got them thrown off, I had always thought that after he had defeated her, he either picked her up or whatever, and her glasses fell off.

[ZeaLitY]

Moved out of plot inconsistencies to common questions. Gameplay lets us get around the 12000 B.C. / 1999 A.D. issue.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_Paradox_%28Reasons_for%29.html

I guess it's not as clean as I like, since defeating the Black Omen still...

Ah crap, did I jump the gun? You still have to destroy the Black Omen in 12000 B.C. I mean, we could assume that the party retreated and faced Lavos down at 1999 A.D., or that they entered the Pocket Dimension at that point in Lavos's history.

[ZeaLitY]

This all hinges on something we've been ignoring; two things, rather.

First, we could say that we know the Pocket Dimension theory to be sound because no matter if you defeat the Black Omen in 12000 B.C, 600 A.D., or 1000 A.D., or challenge Lavos in 1999 A.D., you fight the same Lavos with the same stats. He is not any stronger for allegedly being in the ground longer. This is blatant gameplay, but we are fighting gameplay, so it stands. This proves that you're going to the Pocket Dimension at the same point in time. With this, we can assume that in 1999 A.D., Lavos stepped out of the Pocket Dimension (as shown in Lithosphere Investigation Report #27) to launch fire and hell upon the earth. We can similarly assume that the party enters his Pocket Dimension and then, perhaps, steps out with Lavos in 1999 A.D. (though still with the blue background) and defeats him there, removing the problem of TTI (otherwise, even his destruction raining from the heavens would get TTI from emerging from the Pocket Dimension). Even more, perhaps he could dissolve the Pocket Dimension at that point in time. This would sum things up, but here's what we've been ignoring:

What did the planners intend? Did they intend that Lavos sit beneath the earth for 65 million years? Did they intend to depict with the destruction of the Black Omen that Lavos was emerging RIGHT then and there (whether 12000 B.C. or other times) because apparently the heroes were strong enough to overcome Queen Zeal? We know the Pocket Dimension exists because the destruction of Zeal and TTI trumps it. But did Horii and Sakaguchi know it? What was their thematic aim?

That said, we no longer have a plot hole thanks to the first paragraph I proposed above. The party can enter the plot hole always at the time of Lavos's eruption (whereas the bucket takes you to the eruption site), at which point Lavos dissolves the plot hole in 1999 A.D. or simply exits it. Regardless of Sakaguchi's intent, we can confirm this and it is in harmony with our principles. Better to preserve the integrity of the entire destruction of Zeal than nitpicking over a sequence corrupted by gameplay. Armageddon Branch is still toast, but the rest of the Dead Sea was anyhow, and we're left with a mystery for Chrono Cross, not a plot hole. But there's a problem on the Compendium side with the idea that Lavos leaves the Pocket Dimension or dissolves it:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_%28Binding_of%29.html

That theory was always pretty out there, since it's never stated in game. It would suck to bring this back down to unexplained status, but we'd be left with one mystery versus one tenuous theory and one Chrono Trigger plot hole. Perhaps we should begin thinking about that.

[Leebot]

First, we could say that we know the Pocket Dimension theory to be sound because no matter if you defeat the Black Omen in 12000 B.C, 600 A.D., or 1000 A.D., or challenge Lavos in 1999 A.D., you fight the same Lavos with the same stats. He is not any stronger for allegedly being in the ground longer.

Actually, that part is pretty irrelevent. Look at the numbers involved: 65 million years (-12,000) in the ground before the first chance to fight him, 13,999 years before the last chance. That last 13,999 years is about 0.02% of his life, or one part in 5000. Aside from his hit point total (which might differ by a few points if it were worth bothering), his stats would be essentially unchanged by that small amount of growth. So, we can't really judge anything by the fact that he seems no different as he really should be no different either way.

[Chrono'99]

First, we could say that we know the Pocket Dimension theory to be sound because no matter if you defeat the Black Omen in 12000 B.C, 600 A.D., or 1000 A.D., or challenge Lavos in 1999 A.D., you fight the same Lavos with the same stats. He is not any stronger for allegedly being in the ground longer.

Actually, that part is pretty irrelevent. Look at the numbers involved: 65 million years (-12,000) in the ground before the first chance to fight him, 13,999 years before the last chance. That last 13,999 years is about 0.02% of his life, or one part in 5000. Aside from his hit point total (which might differ by a few points if it were worth bothering), his stats would be essentially unchanged by that small amount of growth. So, we can't really judge anything by the fact that he seems no different as he really should be no different either way.

Isn't this forgetting the evolution of the planet's living beings though? This 0.02% of Lavos' life might be very small, but it's the part of his life when there's the most changes on the planet's surface, with human beings developing their civilization, improving their health, creating domesticated animals; and the Mystics also developing their own civilization and magic. If Lavos' growth is related to the amount and/or quality of the DNA he can gather, then this 0.02% of his life was really the best period for him.