Author Topic: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!  (Read 7114 times)

grey_the_angel

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2006, 09:17:50 pm »
My question is, is the threat substantial enough to warrant illegal wiretapping? At any rate, I hope someone else joins in.

As much as I know the Compendiumites in general hate one liners:

No.
there never was.

Silvercry

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2006, 10:04:09 pm »
Is my question being intentionally ignored?  Wiretapping is out.  Fine.  What is your alternative?  Its not good enough to say X is wrong, give me a Y which satisfies the need for monitoring those who want to kill us and does not infringe on our civil liberties. 

ZeaLitY

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2006, 10:06:53 pm »
Spies. Immigration checkpoints. Reference lists of terrorists. There should be a lot of counter-intelligence techniques out there if the country survived up until this point.

grey_the_angel

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2006, 10:13:02 pm »
Is my question being intentionally ignored?  Wiretapping is out.  Fine.  What is your alternative?  Its not good enough to say X is wrong, give me a Y which satisfies the need for monitoring those who want to kill us and does not infringe on our civil liberties. 

I know! I know: HAVE THE GOD DAMN CIA DO ITS JOB!

Silvercry

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2006, 10:30:26 pm »
Spies. Immigration checkpoints. Reference lists of terrorists. There should be a lot of counter-intelligence techniques out there if the country survived up until this point.

Now we're getting somewhere.

With you on the spies.  Not as clear on the immigration checkpoints.  Lets start there:

Immigration checkpoints are easy to do ay airports, especially when coupled with terrorists reference lists you mentioned. But what about our border with Mexico and Canada?  Its all but impossible to accurately screen and identify every single person who crosses said borders -- especially in the case of Mexico.  What’s to be done about that?

Is my question being intentionally ignored?  Wiretapping is out.  Fine.  What is your alternative?  Its not good enough to say X is wrong, give me a Y which satisfies the need for monitoring those who want to kill us and does not infringe on our civil liberties. 

I know! I know: HAVE THE GOD DAMN CIA DO ITS JOB!

Agreed.  But how?  What methods should and should not be allowed to them?  That's the question
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 10:34:11 pm by Silvercry »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2006, 10:44:23 pm »
Is my question being intentionally ignored?  Wiretapping is out.  Fine.  What is your alternative?  Its not good enough to say X is wrong, give me a Y which satisfies the need for monitoring those who want to kill us and does not infringe on our civil liberties. 


Your question is a bit misleading. Secret wiretapping isn't off the table. There is still the FISA courts, which can grant the warrants neccisarry for such wiretapping retroactively. This decision doesn't remove the ability of the feds to tap phone lines, it simply requires that they do so using legal means, which really should be the default behaviour anyway.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2006, 12:41:55 am »
I see a lot of complaining.  What I don’t see are solutions.

Lets forget for a moment that this wiretapping has enabled the US to prevent -- and assisted in preventing -- numerous terrorist attacks, including the most recent one in the UK.  Never mind that detail, since non of you will believe me anyway.

If NSA wiretapping played a role in preventing the recent British attacks...? That's a pretty extraneous "if." It doesn't matter whether the president's illegal spying program played a part in this overhyped, half-bungled fiasco or not. When the president chooses to commit liberty-abrogating crimes against our privacy in order to ostensibly fight terrorism, then there's either a problem with the president, with the law, or both. Which do you think?

Wiretapping is out?  Ok, done.  How do you plan to prevent the next attack?  How will you find, monitor, and apprehend the people who want you dead for now other reason than your zip code?

What is your solution?

Lord J, I'm looking in your direction…

You're asking me to do the work of several departments of the government? Fine, how about some generalities:

1. First layer of defense: We can prevent some terrorist plots from ever beginning. This is where foreign policy comes in. There's a lot we could do to improve our image in the world, strengthening our alliances and at the same time discouraging enmity against us. The Bush administration's indefensible bullying of the other countries of the world is an umbrella of bad policy. Once we get that idiot and his incompetent cronies out of office, it'll be like the end of Return of the Jedi all over again: fireworks, singing, and joy. It's about time we had some motherfuckin' joy in the house.

2. Second layer of defense: We can foil terrorist attacks in their planning stages. This is where our intelligence comes in. We already have massive a government apparatus to keep tabs on our enemies, both foreign and domestic--Fox News, Republican extremists, Christian fundamentalists, and the Bush administration notwithstanding. There's a lot these powerful organizations can do before it comes to nullifying the Bill of Rights, as the administration would have them do.

3. Third layer of defense: We can deflect operational terrorist attacks. By securing our borders and ports of entry, foreign terrorism will have a much harder penetrating the United States. The administration's negligance of our seaports has been particularly treasonous, but their rotten handling of our airports is no joke either. Rather than publicity stunts like banning liquids, the Bush Next administration could direct our ports to actually inspect cargo, screen passengers, and fund these programs so as to make our ports harder to breach than the Death Star. Where the borders are concerned, we should work with Canada to marginalize the significance of our nothern border--and I think that'll be a pretty job--and then secure our southern border militarily. (A defensible proposal when taken in context of my hope to eradicate illegal immigration by legalizing just about all of it.) But none of this is going to happen with Bush in power. It's like he always says: Keep your friends close, shoot 'em, and then sell your ports to your enemies.

4. Final layer of defense: We can endure successful terrorist attacks. Rather than promoting a message of fear and fascism, as this government and its arms in the Church and the media have done, we can accept that shit happens and that sometimes we will not be able to stop it. Rather than driving the people to a blind panic and then gleefully offering them to sign away their liberties for the illusion of security, we can promote a cultural message that values our freedom rather than just paying it lip-service.

My solution, Silvercry, is to get that bastard King George the Bush out of office and put a decisive end to the fundamentalist-neocon alliance. I don't care about Osama bin Laden a tenth as much as I care about the man at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I'll bet the thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died in the past few years would agree with that--if they weren't dead.

And as for those of us who are not, I say: Be not afraid. The solution to terrorism, is a propserous and educated society.

Exodus

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2006, 01:01:51 am »
Beautifully said, Josh.

One can only hope impeachment comes. I don't think this country can last until 2008.

ChibiBob

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2006, 01:25:46 am »
And as for those of us who are not, I say: Be not afraid. The solution to terrorism, is a propserous and educated society.

And the solution to a prosperous and educated society, as we saw six years ago, is George W. Bush.

I have every faith that your ideas would work if implemented, but in all honestly, the closest we're going to get to a Return of the Jedi orgyfest is Steve, the guy in the basement of that one building at 13th and 34th with the connection to Colombian druglords through his ex-girlfriend's aunt's cellmate, who can get you the really good shit. Considering the quality of potential candidates for the upcoming 2008 elections, including Mrs. Tough-on-gun-crime-in-video-games-but-can't-do-jackshit-with-New-York-City Clinton, I think we'll be sitting on our haunches waiting for progress until someone in our generation who isn't a member of the Parental Stance = Complete Conformity Party is old enough to run for the office him- or herself.

In seventeen years, Vote Heather for President! I might not have shit for political experience on my admittedly-nonexistant resumé, but at least the stationary announcing my candidacy will have something more attractive than a donkey or Hillary Clinton representing my platform.

Besides, have faith in our current system! I mean, how safer could we be? We have the immaculate security of a pretty rainbow representing the danger level of threats against the United States! And those silly Democrats said our government was against homosexuals. I can't remember which comedian said it, but I'd rather introduce the simple, easy-to-understand two-level representation of the danger against the US -- "Buy the safety hat" and "Put the safety hat on."

Magus068

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2006, 01:35:05 am »
The only way to protect ourselves from terrorism is vigilance.  Remember that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2006, 01:42:43 am »
In seventeen years, Vote Heather for President!

Except that in fourteen years, everybody will be voting Josh for president! You'll have to wait until I've served out my three terms in office (at which point I'll be declared the first Emperor of the World, leaving the U.S. presidency vacant once more).

The only way to protect ourselves from terrorism is vigilance.  Remember that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

Oh, how true! But tell that to the American people. Tell that to any people. Eternal vigilience is not a public trait except when it comes to scandal, gossip, and pop culture. I'm afraid democracy is a sham...

Magus068

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2006, 01:52:09 am »
Oh, how true! But tell that to the American people. Tell that to any people. Eternal vigilience is not a public trait except when it comes to scandal, gossip, and pop culture. I'm afraid democracy is a sham...

As time change & people's values change.  I guess that trait is not applicable anymore.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2006, 06:21:12 am »
Oh, how true! But tell that to the American people. Tell that to any people. Eternal vigilience is not a public trait except when it comes to scandal, gossip, and pop culture. I'm afraid democracy is a sham...

As time change & people's values change.  I guess that trait is not applicable anymore.

It never was.

grey_the_angel

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2006, 06:36:04 am »
Oh, how true! But tell that to the American people. Tell that to any people. Eternal vigilience is not a public trait except when it comes to scandal, gossip, and pop culture. I'm afraid democracy is a sham...

As time change & people's values change.  I guess that trait is not applicable anymore.

It never was.
it was in roman times. despite their ... vicous standing, they were truly advance, having the only true democratic system in effect, and also being the first to host a anonymous ballet to protect its citizens. everyday, people would gather and vote together, as a people. EVERY DAY. they may have sounded like barbarians, but they were a truly gifted and intellgent cilivization where the individual had the same power as others.

seriously, go study up on them. they were truly brilliant.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Bingo. Wiretapping unconstitutional!
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2006, 06:51:50 am »
Oh, how true! But tell that to the American people. Tell that to any people. Eternal vigilience is not a public trait except when it comes to scandal, gossip, and pop culture. I'm afraid democracy is a sham...

As time change & people's values change.  I guess that trait is not applicable anymore.

It never was.
it was in roman times. despite their ... vicous standing, they were truly advance, having the only true democratic system in effect, and also being the first to host a anonymous ballet to protect its citizens. everyday, people would gather and vote together, as a people. EVERY DAY. they may have sounded like barbarians, but they were a truly gifted and intellgent cilivization where the individual had the same power as others.

seriously, go study up on them. they were truly brilliant.
Correct me if I, and most probably, am wrong, but wasn't Rome for most of it's conquery and awesomy time an Empire? And aren't most Empires not democratic, or not a, quote, "true democracy"? Plus, I think the most democratic system back in the day were the Athenians, the founders of democracy (well, Pericles was). But I guess that only lasted for like half a century. But even the Roman Republic was an oligarchy.

Or something.