Belthasar's Manipulator

[Chaosgriffin]

Ok people, here me out. We all know that there was a ton of manipulation, threachery, and other stuff like that with Belthasar as the man who started it all. (For a complete list of such manipulations see http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chrono_Cross_%28Manipulation_within%29.html )  Anyway, back to my point, the man obviously had the brains, and certainly had the means to do it, I mean come on the man charted the entirety of history across dozens of centuries in not one, but two dimensions!!! So he could obviously done anything, however through the course of the game he made you destroy the Time Devourer not to save the whole time stream continuim, or even to unify the deminsions into one perfect timeline, no my friend he did it to save Schala.

So to state again, the man had the brains, and the means, but no motive. Ok yes, he may have done it as a duty to his liege lady, or he may have done it because he loved her like a daugter. However his actions in CC are seen as stemmed from megalomania and a tendency to play god, as well as from what I wrote above. What he did could also be called uncaring, but for one thing, a resolve to twist and mold the minds of millions of people across time just to see his goal met, and also just plan hell bent on doing it that it borders on various forms of obsession and psychosis.
From this we can tell that there had to have been a lot of passion in him for him to go to such great lengths, either passion as in love to save Schala, or passion as in hate to finally eradicate Lavos.

So for the final time I state, Belthasar had everything, except a truly big enough motive, or the passion to fill it, and the only person that had that passion, that could have voiced the idea (or made the command as his superior) so that Belthasar would have started this mad scheme of his, the only person left unaccounted for... is Magus.

Now that I've finally come out and said this, you probably think I'm nuts, but please hear me out again. Brains, we all know that Janus was a smart boy, he as a child and as an adult was able to make an entire species bow down and listen to his every whim, even when said species absolutely despised all humans. Which also nicely fills in the manipulation part without even getting into his stint as The Prophet, or his bribery of knowledge on how to bring Crono back to the group at North Cape. Oh, and since both love and hate are rooted in passion, and that Schala was the only one (besides Alfador) to treat him as a real person, and that Lavos was the reason his life got ruined in the first place, he definitely had a set motive, and tons of passion to spare.

So now, there is only one thing to say, please discuss.

P.S.  What are the chances this could become an article?

P.S.S. In your own opinion, between Lavos, Sin, and Ganon who is uglier?

[AuraTwilight]

I honestly don't think Magus was involved at all. It's confirmed that Magus's role, whatever it was, was completely scraped.

P.S. It probably wont.

P.S.S. Yo Momma, Ganon.

[ZeaLitY]

The issue is that any sentient being would probably resist the destruction of the entire space-time continuum. It's the only option.

[Chrono'99]

I like this theory. It has to be expanded to make more sense but it's interesting. It's confirmed that Magus's role as Masked Magician Guile was completely scrapped, but surely Kato must have imagined something else to explain Magus's absence (Magus isn't Happy Days's Chuck Cunningham...).

[Chaosgriffin]

Ok then Chrono'99 how would I or you for that matter expand this theory, if you could at all?

[Chrono'99]

Ok then Chrono'99 how would I or you for that matter expand this theory, if you could at all?

Well, I don't know. It's your theory you should be able to back it up.

Also, it's rather unrelated but, I once tried to think about a "Belthasar was dragon-torn" theory, thinking someone could have taken over Belthasar's body by using the Dragon Tear (I assumed some people such as the Dragonians could use the device without breaking it), but I had a hard time thinking about who would have taken Belthasar's body and why exactly.

[Chaosgriffin]

Well, since you said it was my job to defend it, I might as well try it. Basically, from playing both CT and CC I came up with 3 things that bugged which is why this theory exists in the first place,

1. No Magus. I mean even just a reference to him would be fine, but no there is not one single thing. Unless of course you fall into the line of reasoning that he has no idea that CC ever took place, you know that a guy like Magus is not just going to sit there and watch the one person he loves most be irreversably fused with the creature he hates to the core of his being.

2. Belthasar's Actions. Of course just like Zeality said, anyone with just a shred of sanity, or the tinest survival instinct would obviously object to the consumption of the time-space continumm, yet the how of his actions bother me. Thousands of years, and an almost infinite amount of power and people manipulation spanning two dimensions, all done, thought up, and completed by a man whom we last saw went so insane he had to implant his memory in a Nu just to finish his final project before he sucumed to death. I myself think that is a little suspicious.

3. Lack of True Passion. Now I'll state again that Zeality is 100% correct in his statement, but you could have just killed the Time Devourer and the deed would have been done but no, Serge was specifically led so he would obtain the CC and be given the choice to use it. Now if you could just simplify your methods to kill the TD like I said, without having to go to such lengthes, but Belthasar's goal was to save Schala not to kill the TD. Which is of course why he did what he did, and if you add Magus into the picture; either as beside or as above Belthasar; these problems get neatly solved.

That's all for now folks.

[AuraTwilight]

1. No Magus. I mean even just a reference to him would be fine, but no there is not one single thing. Unless of course you fall into the line of reasoning that he has no idea that CC ever took place, you know that a guy like Magus is not just going to sit there and watch the one person he loves most be irreversably fused with the creature he hates to the core of his being.

Well he was mentioned in Lucca's letter, but whatever. Anyway, from CT's ending, it's pretty clear he returned to 12,000 BC or some other time period. He probably lived his life out trying to find Schala and died like a normal person, because he sure as hell can't time travel. I just don't see a reason for him to be involved. Besides, the sheer fact that he isn't mentioned should be proof that he's NOT manipulating events, shouldn't it?

2. Belthasar's Actions. Of course just like Zeality said, anyone with just a shred of sanity, or the tinest survival instinct would obviously object to the consumption of the time-space continumm, yet the how of his actions bother me. Thousands of years, and an almost infinite amount of power and people manipulation spanning two dimensions, all done, thought up, and completed by a man whom we last saw went so insane he had to implant his memory in a Nu just to finish his final project before he sucumed to death. I myself think that is a little suspicious.

Well, time DID change so that Belthasar was warped into a more peaceful and prosperous future. The period where he became a Nu and died never happened. He was probably still insane, but not insane enough to be debilitated.

3. Lack of True Passion. Now I'll state again that Zeality is 100% correct in his statement, but you could have just killed the Time Devourer and the deed would have been done but no, Serge was specifically led so he would obtain the CC and be given the choice to use it. Now if you could just simplify your methods to kill the TD like I said, without having to go to such lengthes, but Belthasar's goal was to save Schala not to kill the TD. Which is of course why he did what he did, and if you add Magus into the picture; either as beside or as above Belthasar; these problems get neatly solved.

Well, Belthasar cares about Schala too, y'know. And even still, freeing Schala was the better alternative for the whole UNIVERSE. Just killing the TD outright still leaves a lot of problems unsolved.

[Legend of the Past]

these problems get neatly solved.

Then again, there is this thing with the WHOLE TIMELINE BEING SPLIT IN HALF. The Chrono Cross resolves these problems- the sheer brilliance of Belthasar's plan lies in the very idea that he can mess everything up like crazy and then put it neatly back together, better than before. The Chrono Cross was an essential part of the plan, so why not use it to free Schala, too?

[ZeaLitY]

Here's the other side of this coin. The ability of the Chrono Cross to do these amazing, healing things and tap into the melody of life may only be possible by the fusion of two anti-dimensional objects. That is to say, one from each. If we believe this, then the split of the dimensions is necessitated. Still doesn't make much of a case for controlling the lives of those in El Nido for millennia.

[Legend of the Past]

Still doesn't make much of a case for controlling the lives of those in El Nido for millennia.

That could of been FATE's own decision, but then we wouldn't want the guys at El-Nido to go about changing history-if one of them were to prevent the CT kids from changing history the effects would be cataclismic-and with all the Dragonian artifacts and Elements abound, it wouldn't be as much of a challange as it may appear.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Why would Lucca address Janus in her letter if he could not time travel? Magus can create Black Holes, which are known to affect space and time. He probably just watch from afar.

[Kyronea]

Why would Lucca address Janus in her letter if he could not time travel? Magus can create Black Holes, which are known to affect space and time. He probably just watch from afar.

While I agree that Magus can manipulate spacetime, creating a vortex that acts like a minature black hole is ridiculously far from creating a stable wormhole that can transport him to a different temporal era, especially taking into account the gravitational effects at the event horizon of a wormhole...but then if the Planet can negate these effects as it so obviously did--or else Crono and Marle, not to mention everyone at the Telepod Exhibit, would have been ripped to shreds at the beginning of the game--presumeably Magus can also figure this out.

I don't deny that Magus is capable of time travel, though....I simply feel he would have needed many more years of magical study before he could manipulate spacetime to that degree.

[Zaperking]

We know Magus can time travel. There is no denying it.

RD happens after CT, but in another dimension.
There, Magus traveled through out time, until he finally found Schala, but as Kid.

Also, he isn't old either. When his mask fell off, he was stated to look regal, young and handsome (so pretty much he turned to look more like Janus).

And for CC evidence, Lucca obviously knows he can time travel. She wouldn't be stupid enough to say without any basis to Kid in the letter to tell Janus "hello", because even Lucca knows that he will find her one day. Heck, maybe Lucca even found Magus and told him that she has Kid, but they didn't understand at the time about Schala's predicament.

[Kyronea]

We know Magus can time travel. There is no denying it.

Oh yes there is.

RD happens after CT, but in another dimension.
There, Magus traveled through out time, until he finally found Schala, but as Kid.

Also, he isn't old either. When his mask fell off, he was stated to look regal, young and handsome (so pretty much he turned to look more like Janus).

Radical Dreamers is not canon, or at least not close enough for us to accept that Magus himself is fully capable of time travel. Now while I believe he would be, there remains to be no proof.

Also, by many years, I was not referring to decades...simply a few years, say five or so. Since Magus is about 26 during the events of Chrono Trigger, he could easily still look young, regal, and handsome given his physical fitness.

And for CC evidence, Lucca obviously knows he can time travel. She wouldn't be stupid enough to say without any basis to Kid in the letter to tell Janus "hello", because even Lucca knows that he will find her one day. Heck, maybe Lucca even found Magus and told him that she has Kid, but they didn't understand at the time about Schala's predicament.

Or the Epoch is involved. Again, I agree with the probability but this is one thing we simply cannot accept as fact until full proof is given.