Humanity: Good News, Bad News

[tushantin]

Warning! Video Not Safe For Work.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/08/02/syria.video/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29

Jesus Christ, this is inhumane. 

[tushantin]

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/15221464/us-troops-in-afghan-chopper-crash-from-navy-seals-unit-that-killed-bin-laden
  

I realize these men were trained to kill, but it's these guys that risk their lives in the battlefield just so us civilians can leave peacefully and freely. Just when we thought the mofo was dead, insurgents strike and kill over 20 Navy SEALS.

I wish this war would just end. I wish these Taliban fuckers would simply come to their senses!

[skylark]

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/15221464/us-troops-in-afghan-chopper-crash-from-navy-seals-unit-that-killed-bin-laden
  

I realize these men were trained to kill, but it's these guys that risk their lives in the battlefield just so us civilians can leave peacefully and freely. Just when we thought the mofo was dead, insurgents strike and kill over 20 Navy SEALS.

I wish this war would just end. I wish these Taliban fuckers would simply come to their senses!

These guys are fanatics, what do you expect? They actually do think that they're sane, and no amount of understanding is going to make them think otherwise.

The only cure for that kind of stupidity is death. It's just that nobody wants to admit it. All to maintain some cheap illusion of higher morality.

[tushantin]

The only cure for that kind of stupidity is death. It's just that nobody wants to admit it. All to maintain some cheap illusion of higher morality.

Of course! Battlefield is the abode of death, and once the cogs of war turn it is impossible to stop until something or someone breaks. Problem is that when these cogs turn it is no longer about "who is right", and more about the survival of you and the folks you care for. When you lose someone close you become a war cog in the name of vengeance and cause further casualties that might turn others into the same monster you've become.

But one thing's for certain. As much as I've supported Obama's decision, despite the preventive methods (including refusal to publish Osama's death photos) these maniacs have shown that nothing can stop them from being assholes.

[tushantin]

Continuity of the news here.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/07/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29

[tushantin]

An important question for whoever studies empathy in depth. This one pertains to its relations with naivety.

A few days ago a person came about to the cafe crying, asking for help and told me that he came all the way from Rajasthan but all his credentials, money and luggage was left in the train and he was stuck here, homeless, unable to return home. The story was old, obviously, and a lot of con artists have used this trick to get some cash out of their victims, so I stood my ground. At the same time I didn't rule out the idea that it could be possible he wasn't lying (there have been similar, real cases like this). I could have asked him to stay till I get a number to the rail company and inform them, but I didn't want to betray my responsibilities at work. Also, helping the guy would mean getting involved in police cases, which my family wouldn't approve of.

If the man was lying, I was being conned; If he was telling the truth, I felt sympathy towards him. I was aware of both back then and took the best option in between, telling him that I can only help him with a measly sum of 10 Rupees. He accepted it, cried a little, gave me blessings, and left. Somehow, helping a person in need made me feel better that he at least had some monetary support since the others had been ignoring him, but I still couldn't shake off the feeling that I was probably conned.

A second instance happened today as I helped my employer around at work and my perception shifted to the world outside, and I observed this homeless pauper, old and grey, carrying a stick, sitting opposite the street and smoking cheap cigarettes. About 10 mins later, the pauper crossed the street and stood outside our cafe begging for money. His voice hoarse and he was unable to speak -- presumably damaged by tobacco. I instantly felt sympathy for the fellow, more so than the other paupers that I donate to, but if it wasn't for that image of him casually smoking that biased my judgement I would have done the same. My boss was respectful to the old guy but I made sure the pauper never received a penny. He left and I soon felt a doubt in my heart; had I wronged him? Yes, I didn't want to pay a person who would use the penny for his devilish pleasures, but that was also his only source of financial gain for food.

After all, a penny was only for me to give as generosity; what they do with it is their problem. What do you guys make of this?

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Tush, my parents are Bible-thumping, uber-Conservative, close-minded, Sarah-Palin loving Christians. For years growing up they never would give homeless people money (although I do remember the one instance from my childhood when they gave to a New York car washer near the Lincoln Tunnel - then again, they said he worked for his money). Their logic was that any money given would/could be used for evil and they did not want to encourage or support an "evil" lifestyle.

As I grew up I disagreed with this logic, and I regularly gave homeless people money. Eventually I started buying homeless people food. Although I should note, those that deny food (which I'd say nearly half of those I offer do) don't always get anything because to me a flat-out denial for help would probably use it for drugs or alcohol and I didn't always give them cash. I've even offered some help in finding a place to stay and some decline the offer.

I was in Chicago with my parents for the weekend a few years back and my parents witnessed firsthand my interactions with the homeless (mind you, I'm an adult at this point). They asked why I did this and I simply stated, "because it's the right thing to do." I further explained that whatever the homeless did with the money - whether they used it to buy drugs, alcohol - was their own responsibility. To further encourage this point to my parents, I told them that feeding the hungry and giving money to those in need was Christ-like; those who abused their generosity would be held accountable, not my parents.

Next time I saw them they were buying homeless people food and freely offering money. Ultimately, the responsibility of how they handle the money is not our concern. Religion plays no role in this argument, it's simply the right thing to do.

* * * * * * * * * * *

On a side note, I saw an article one time where an undercover reporter pretended to be homeless and worked a street in New York City. I can't recall where exactly he set up to beg, but I know it was close to but off the track of a major tourism path. At the end of the day he had made nearly $1,000. On a cold day in winter. Which means that homelessness and begging can be quite lucrative if handled properly.

* * * * * * * * * * *

The life of Japanese Buddhist monks are fascinating to me - really, any monks are fascinating to me. As a child I wanted to be one because I wanted to "be one with nature" and live in the wilderness and never get married. Although Buddhism doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, I find a few universal aspects quite enthralling. Here's an image of a monk who, from my understanding, can only beg while meditating:

[tushantin]

Boo, thank you for your insightful reply! Hehe, you may not be a Monk, but your daughter is surely gonna inherit the wisdom of her "Wise Old Gentleman Caller"!    I guess my guilt was due to my prejudiced actions after all; the least I could do was spare the poor guy a coin and simply observe what he did with it. I won't make the same mistake again. Sure, we can't teach old dogs new tricks, but at-least one can help minimize people's suffering, even if the one we're helping is a fool. People are people, after all.

Okay, I don't want to intrude this convo with religion, but just for this statement I want to point out the staggering differences between morality of Christian individuals (purely informative purpose). My boss is a Catholic and always supportive of empathy and equality. His belief, however, is that people are valued more than money, and you should never blind yourself with monetary satisfaction (exactly Christ-like, as you pointed out, who asked the rich to throw away their wealth and follow his teachings). But money can bring morsel, and if you hand it to the needy be happy that you helped someone live another day.  Of course, he also advises me to be clever since people can take advantage of you, but all that is more from his personal experience.

Hah, Buddhist Monks are awesome! They can do things with their minds and bodies that no ordinary person would even be capable of doing.  And hell, meditative begging sounds more awesome than ordinary panhandling -- looking cool and sharp, minding their own business hacking their brain into awesomeness.

BTW, if you're still interested, you can still become one with everything as there are personal trainers available for that purpose near Tibet or mountainous regions. I'm not talking about becoming a hardcore monk, but just get the first-hand thrill and experience of it. Although I don't believe Spirituality, the experience is enough for physical and mental development. XD Teaches you to get hang of your survival instincts and also makes you appreciate the beauty of the natural world.

[Syna]

On a side note, I saw an article one time where an undercover reporter pretended to be homeless and worked a street in New York City. I can't recall where exactly he set up to beg, but I know it was close to but off the track of a major tourism path. At the end of the day he had made nearly $1,000. On a cold day in winter. Which means that homelessness and begging can be quite lucrative if handled properly.

That's a dilemma I've personally had. I used to give them money; I don't now. Although I sincerely believe that there are simply people who will never be gainfully employed (through no fault of their own) and that it would be good to give to such people, I have a couple of friends who have worked with the homeless very closely, and they advised me not to give. They said the chance that my money would be used to feed their addictions was too great. I'm not sure what to do...

The Buddhist stance toward the homeless is very interesting - I think it's interesting how it's basically a formalized mandate to let people who indirectly benefit society (like gurus/sages/etc.) exist.

[Lord J Esq]

I'm torn by the judgmentalism that comes with saying "I'll give you money" to a homeless person, "but only if you're going to use it the way I want you to." Essentially, then, what you're doing is not charity but investment, and homeless people are a lousy investment. There's also a lot of ethical self-righteousness attached to the strings that people attach to the money or aid they "freely" give. On the other hand, food is essential to life and alcohol is not only pure luxury but is an active contributor to many people's homeless circumstances. I haven't come up with a definite policy yet.

[Syna]

Oh, of course. I'm honestly not even against them buying alcohol with the money I give, on premise, personally speaking. I would just like to have reason to believe my contribution would actually improve their circumstances and opportunities for fulfillment, and my friends assured me that it would not.

[tushantin]

I'm torn by the judgmentalism that comes with saying "I'll give you money" to a homeless person, "but only if you're going to use it the way I want you to." Essentially, then, what you're doing is not charity but investment, and homeless people are a lousy investment. There's also a lot of ethical self-righteousness attached to the strings that people attach to the money or aid they "freely" give.

That's an interesting angle of vision. Unfortunately most homeless folks here speak in Marathi here (and I don't know Marathi) and their language expertise is minimal.

No, what they want is money, but what they need is education. With respect to a similar dream I had last time, I discussed this with a friend in depth where he told me that most homeless people would deny help in favor of plain cash (as Boo said) mostly because they want freedom to live the life they want and without other people driving them away from their haven. Their insistence in living in poverty creates a vicious cycle that's impossible to break.

Oh, of course. I'm honestly not even against them buying alcohol with the money I give, on premise, personally speaking. I would just like to have reason to believe my contribution would actually improve their circumstances and opportunities for fulfillment, and my friends assured me that it would not.

Exactly; they're trapped in an abyss not knowing which way is up unless an angel from a well educated sector descends and helps them get enlightened. But on the contrary, most of them don't want our help, just money. Unlike you, I despise the poor for using people's money for alcohol and cigarettes, an attitude I'm hoping to improve on for the sake of their sake, but usually a penny donated helps them live through the day. They don't even know what productivity and investment is because nobody taught them.

Here's an interesting (and comical) article regarding this. 

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

That's a dilemma I've personally had. I used to give them money; I don't now. Although I sincerely believe that there are simply people who will never be gainfully employed (through no fault of their own) and that it would be good to give to such people, I have a couple of friends who have worked with the homeless very closely, and they advised me not to give. They said the chance that my money would be used to feed their addictions was too great. I'm not sure what to do...

That's why you offer to buy them a hot meal first, haha. As I said, half of the homeless I've dealt with have turned down a free meal. Those turning down such an offer will probably be the type more likely to feed themselves with spirits and substances.

It's a tough decision.

One time a homeless man asked me for a cup of water. I was in a hurry and said no. I still think about it and regret it to this day. All he wanted was a cup of ice water on a hot summer day.

[Syna]

So, tush... are they insistent on remaining in their poverty or do they not know which end is up?

(First of all, it may be helpful to separate "the poor" from "the destitute" or homeless. Obviously, poor people can have high standards for productivity.)

I personally think it is both. Poor people grew up in a poor culture, and likely want to remain where their friends and family are, in an environment where they can achieve the goals they've set within their limitations. Perhaps they have become complacent, but humans are adaptable, and I don't think that complacency is indicative of a moral failing.

I also tend to agree that poor people are not aware of all the opportunities available to them. Their lack of resources is usually not just material -- it's informational as well. They don't have the social and cultural network that can inform them of opportunities. So of course they want money; education is intangible, and their priorities are probably closer to survival than ours are -- closer than we can understand. They also may not understand the significance of education in the long term, or, just as likely, are not sure whether education will actually improve their station or not. Given the time and expense involved, and the fact that doing well in education often has as much to do with cultural factors as intelligence, they would have reason to be wary.

But generally my bias is that I think people should be aiming for a well-lived, fulfilling life, not chasing after some illusory standard of endless productivity (which I honestly think is problematic because it is a value attached to a system of unlimited growth).

[Syna]

That's why you offer to buy them a hot meal first, haha. As I said, half of the homeless I've dealt with have turned down a free meal. Those turning down such an offer will probably be the type more likely to feed themselves with spirits and substances.

Oh right! My mom does that. It's a good solution to the problem. I suppose I've always encountered the homeless in environments where they were really hustling for cash -- at street corners and downtown where they move from person to person very quickly. My city has a pretty epic homeless problem, though, and is not friendly to pedestrians in most areas, so it's probably just unique to this area.

I sometimes wonder if we have such a problem because there's not anything like a formalized market area around here. I imagine these sort of people might be street musicians or performers in another city.