Author Topic: Humanity: Good News, Bad News  (Read 128474 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #615 on: October 08, 2009, 12:18:38 am »
Oh, thank you for indulging my ego! It is greatly appreciated! Heh, I've actually been training myself to write Latin poetry. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I've gotten half-decent at writing in the metre of Elegy (ie. one line of dactylic hexameter, followed by a pentameter), which is what that was in.

Indeed, you correctly ascertained the words 'enemy' and 'immobile.' I suppose it's only fitting not to let it remain forever shadowed in obscurity. In its full sense the translation would be (although due to my haste it is not the most deft of passages... unlike that bit you quoted - which I found later to be of Ovid, and hence extremely well constructed):

'And let all our enemies fear us when we are immobile,
since we suddenly stir against them snakelike.'

I dearly love writing such elegy in Latin. It takes many hours (usually... this little bit needed not be so refined, so I had no qualms about adding an extraneous 'atque' at the beginning of the line to supply a neccessary long syllable in that position), but can be something beautiful in the end. It is, also, true to my aristocratic leanings, something entirely without practical use whose only value is its obscure beauty.

As for Latin, the reason I hold it a pity that it has been lost is because, as a declined language, it is invaluable to the understanding of grammar, even English grammar. It more clearly sets out the uses of the various cases, tenses, and so on which, though invisible in English at times, still come into play. I have never understood English as well as after having done Latin and Greek. As such, I think it would be a useful thing to learn at an early age, at least to an extent. Not, of course, as exclusive learning, nor even to a very high level, but sufficient to grant a foundation.

Unfortunately, I was never afforded that, and my later Latin studies have, in a sense, been second-rate because of it. It is in part for that personal regret that I lament the state on the whole.

Thought

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #616 on: October 08, 2009, 10:24:32 am »
Thankfully, many English words are Latin-based or have a Latin-based synonym...

Not only that, English is a sister language to Latin (as well as being a daughter language, so English is really the redneck of the linguistic family). Thus, even when English words aren't derived from Latin, there's a good chance we have a cognate to it.

As for Latin, the reason I hold it a pity that it has been lost is because, as a declined language, it is invaluable to the understanding of grammar, even English grammar.

I must disagree; Latin's value is in the texts that were written in the language. Translations never do words justice. Indeed, the best a translation can hope to accomplish is to stir a love in the reader's heart strong enough that they'll then desire to pursue the original work. A secondary use is the linguistic knowledgebase that expands one's own English-based vocabulary due to derivatives. Knowing Latin and Greek allows one to deduce the meaning of unknown English words with respective roots (and it is an invaluable skill if one desires to mint one's own words).

Grammar is of tertiary importance, mainly because one can get the same benefit from almost any modern foreign language. German, for example, taught me about as much grammar as Latin and Greek have (indeed, in some regards, more). To be fair, this is because I took German first, thus Latin and Greek grammar tended to trod on covered ground, and not because German was better at it. I suspect French or Spanish would be the same way (and I don't know enough about non-Indo-European languages to speculate on them).

Though... writing poetry in Latin is damn impressive...

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #617 on: October 08, 2009, 08:27:01 pm »
I think that Latin is not prevalent because it is no longer relevant.  No culture speaks Latin that I know of, and even though it is the root of several languages, without the spoken word to me it seems bound to die out.  Just my two cents, and feel free to correct anything that may be wrong there.  Not like I did any research, just speakin from the brain.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #618 on: October 08, 2009, 09:45:21 pm »
Though, whence comes the idea that English is sister and daughter to English? I do not think it is either. In a fashion it is a cousin, but the splitting point lies so far back (some five thousand years), that it is nearer a distanct cousin. At any rate, English is Germanic, which in essence is quite different than Latin, though it does share some cognates. One might, however, argue that Greek and Sanskrit are closer than are English and Latin.

There are, as you say, some loan-words, but these are actually rarer than most people think. Certainly not enough for it to be classified as a descendant. I think the total runs maybe to 2% of our vocabulary, if that. To be able to discern these words is hardly a good reason to learn Latin, as the majority of words we employ have become so common as to not need explaining (ie. the word 'majority' for one.) Those of a rarer form are generally used by those attempting to pepper their language with complex words, and as such their use is marginal at best.

Nonetheless, I must disagree strongly with your statement about translations not doing the original justice. Having read, for example, Homer in the original, and on the other hand Richmond Lattimore's translation, I will say that it comes extremely near. Certainly there are things that are difficult to convey, but such problems exist even to those attempting to read the orignal (for example, what does 'bathukolpos' applied to the Trojan women mean? The 'deep-girdled' that Lattimore gives it as? Or 'with deep cleavage'? The word merely means 'deep hollow', and much of the context is difficult to ascertain even in Greek. The same goes for a word such as amunon.) The point is, unlike some would claim, reading the original is not always that much better than a translation, and there are many translations that can beautifully convey not only the words of the original, but also the mood and feeling. I will always maintain that translations can do justice to the original, and I'm saying this from many years of experience in the matter. Definitely there are artistic nuances that don't quite translate... but again, even in the original those are sometimes obscure.

Of course, those of us who do study the languages do have some innate love for the original. I would not study it if I did not. But it is an eccentric love that is unneccesary for the vast majority. The most of people can get a very good sense of the originals via translation. To read the original work remains with those who have a peculiar linguistic madness for the subject.

Nevertheless, I will still maintain the value of these languages in a pedagogical aspect against both you and Shee. It remains extremely relevant not because of mere etymology (as, Thought, you have mainained), but because of larger shared linguistic heritage. Unlike languages like German there still exists the strong use of declension and conjugation - certainly more prevalent in German than in English, but even there it's mostly faded. This structure in turn helps with the proper use of English simply because the inherent conception of how language works remains very much the same. You will rarely see me misuse a reflexive, and so on and so forth, in part because in Latin such uses are so basically structural that it continually highlights proper use in English.

Of course, I will admit there are several errors that arise from such Latin scholarship. For example, the idea that we cannot begin sentences with certain words comes from a post-postitive use in Latin and Greek that does not exist in Latin. Likewise split infinitives, actually quite useful in English, somehow became taboo to the grammarians on account of Latin. Grammatically speaking, there is nothing wrong in English with saying 'to boldly go'. It very nicely ties the adverb more strongly to the verb in a way that 'to go boldly' or 'boldly to go' does not. There are such nuances in Latin as well, but they do not work in English becaues of the way our language is structured.

All the same, the concepts of case, tense, mood, of person and so forth, remain very much the same, and their proper use is best taught by a language in which they still remain prevalent. As such, in part because of its fossilised nature, it serves as an excellent tool to teach these things. Of course, I do not think that it is prudent for most to learn Latin to the extent that they can write in it, or read more than the most basic texts. But a basic understanding is invaluable to the understanding of language as a whole, and I think structures future learning and thought in a very beneficial way that even learning other modern languages cannot quite match. And, I will say, one reason for this is that the learning of most modern languages is from the view of conversation, rather than grammar. As such, you learn the 'how', and not the 'why', and it is this why that is helpful in later learning, even outside the realm of languages. Not to mention, there is nothing that teaches patience so much as sitting and writing down the pages of paradigms for Latin or Greek. Certainly that is a trait that will stand any future students, indeed all of the population, in good stead.

So it must be maintained that though fossilised, Latin is only dead if we wish it to be. The very fact that I choose to write poetry in Latin underscores this. To me, it remains very much alive.

And Thought, thank you very much for your well-written Latin statement, but ironically, in the most recent poem I was writing, I was saying just the reverse. It is mostly incomplete, but the first words were running something along the lines of 'quisquis gentium et aetatem posteriore' ('whoever of races and times yet to come'... not yet structured in the metre, and I'm still uncertain if this 'of' demands genetive or ablative... ablative is used to dentote a place of origin, but genetive can be used in a partative sense, and I can't figure out which is to be used in this case. I've gone from one to the other, here retaining the genetive, but also going back to the ablative now and again) and continues on to a conclusion of 'quis ... rumor inanis ero' (for whom I will be an untrustworthy rumour'), and at last will conclude with 'scripta sodali sunt ingenii...' (these writings are for my friend of genius...) the dedication to whom I have written the poem as being, for those reading it, the name to be remembered above mine. Though my body and name be in the dust, let hers remain exalted. Or something along those lines. I'm still needing to work on it.

I suppose writing in English might be more accessible. But there are those amongst my friends with far greater Latin ability than me (though I am the only one that attempts such writing), and as such it is not so obscure to the intended audience.

Post Scriptum
Note that I have said 'greater Latin ability than me.' My mother, who knows English and German, has often critiqued this use, saying it should properly be 'than I.' However, because of my knowledge of language via Latin, I have successfully maintained the use of 'me'. The difference is that with the use of 'I' the 'than' begins a clause, in the anticipation of another verb 'ie. greater ability than I possess.' However, the use of 'me' is perfectly correct if the 'than' is being used prepositionally, in which case the 'than' takes an accusative, hence, 'me'. However, without the linguistic grounding of Latin such things are difficult to spot, and are often mistakenly criticised. I, of course, have used this power for evil at times, arguing via absurd linguistic reasoning that something I said most assuredly in error was, by some obscure grammatical use, correct.

Post Post Scriptum
Maybe this thread needs a split...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 09:54:59 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #619 on: October 09, 2009, 12:48:19 am »
Some humans are really cuckoo. That's not exactly timely news, but here's a comment on the Colbert Report website:

Quote from: Klassin
The point that Psycology hasn't reached yet, is part of what is about to happen on the end of days. Babies begin life born into the heavenly mind and as parents it is our job to raise them to be able to survive then strive within our earthly mind. The heavenly mind is the part of the brain that is aware of the 7 other dimensions in string theory. Babies are born into this mind and react to vibratons in the strings as they are altered by the energy of the people around them. This means they detect Gods moral fiber. At the end of days this is what will happen, when the gravitons from the black hole in the center of the galaxy flips, the gravitational pole of earth will too, causing our eathly brain to be once again linked with our heavenly mind, make us aware of the 7 other dimensions as we were as a child. It is only those that have been brainwashed as children into an A > B mentality and that causes them to forget and/or distroy that childhood understanding, that will be given the mark of the beast. Going to the 9 hells or the 7 heavens, or in another D & D thing, the Son of God was Lawful Good the Son of Man is Choatic Good, the conservative movement is causing as much choas as they can so that they can keep the argument about Law vs. Chaos instead of Good vs Evil. That is what they are doing with the bible, that and the evengalical church is the 7 headed beast in revelation, and that the free market system is the Whore of Babylon. They need to alter the bible to be able to keep believing in it.

It's either WTF or really damn good satire.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #620 on: October 09, 2009, 06:25:34 am »
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
:!: :D :lol: :D :P :D 8) 8) :D :o :D :) :P  :!: :wink: :D :D :lol: :D :P :D 8)
   HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
8) :D :o :idea: :D :) :P :D :!:

 :franky  :lee: :lee: :lee: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/world/10nobel.html  :lee: :lee: :lee: :franky

8) :D :o :idea: :D :) :P :D :!:
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
:!: :D :lol: :D :P :D 8) 8) :D :o :D :) :P  :!: :wink: :D :D :lol: :D :P :D 8)
   HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

ZeaLitY

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #621 on: October 09, 2009, 10:52:52 am »
Republicans and the Taliban agree: this is a bad thing.

Truthordeal

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #622 on: October 09, 2009, 02:23:05 pm »
Feh. Personally, the Nobel Peace Prize stopped meaning as much to me when they started giving it to people like Al Gore for making a damn movie. I say give it to Steven Spielberg for Schindler's List, if you're that desperate for a public face.

But, this is not a bad thing at all. Hopefully this will get Obama and the United States by extension some much needed clout in worldly affairs. Maybe this will convince the EU to help us in Afghanistan, and maybe this will get the UN off their carcasses with some of his other cultural and economic world-wide initiatives.

Bear in mind, I still don't agree with him 100% in these, but to see this as anything less than a huge positive step forward for America on the world stage is being selectively blind.

EDIT: Just read a good article by Nancy Gibbs about the possible fallouts from the Nobel Peace Prize:

Quote from: Nancy Gibbons
Maybe the prize will give him more power, new muscles to haul unruly nations in line. But peacemaking is more about ingenuity than inspiration, about reading other nations' selfish interests and cynically, strategically exploiting them for the common good. Will it help if fewer countries come to the table hating us? To a point. But it's a starting point, not an end in itself.

The article in question

I didn't know this, but apparently one of my modern heroes, Greg Mortenson was nominated. Kinda ticked off now that he didn't win.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 03:23:39 pm by Truthordeal »

KebreI

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #623 on: October 09, 2009, 05:20:27 pm »
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
:!: :D :lol: :D :P :D 8) 8) :D :o :D :) :P  :!: :wink: :D :D :lol: :D :P :D 8)
   HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
8) :D :o :idea: :D :) :P :D :!:

 :franky  :lee: :lee: :lee: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/world/10nobel.html  :lee: :lee: :lee: :franky

8) :D :o :idea: :D :) :P :D :!:
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!
:!: :D :lol: :D :P :D 8) 8) :D :o :D :) :P  :!: :wink: :D :D :lol: :D :P :D 8)
   HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!


There giving to him because he was better then Bush? He is, but that's a bull crap reason.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #624 on: October 09, 2009, 05:21:49 pm »
There giving to him because he was better then Bush?

 :picardno

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #625 on: October 10, 2009, 04:27:38 pm »
Rachael Maddow did a good segment on the Nobel Peace Prize's award to Obama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJuEOaF84o

Just one more reason that she's the best pundit on cable news. I hesitate even to call her a "pundit," since what she does is the kind of hard news commentary that most punditry has abandoned in favor of gotchas and shout matches.

I think she deserves an award, too.

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #626 on: October 10, 2009, 04:36:25 pm »
Huh, that commentary really puts things in perspective, and shows just how skillful President Obama's acceptance of the award was (instead of "thanks," it's a "call to action"). I still agree most with Fareed Zakaria's opinion that the Nobel award committee wasn't awarding Obama as much as they were us, the American people, for finally having sense en masse.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #627 on: October 10, 2009, 04:44:43 pm »
Ah, see...I disagree with you there. America hasn't yet earned the world's forgiveness for the Bush presidency. We'll be working off that debt for a generation. We certainly aren't to the point of getting awards yet simply for having picked someone else. Clinton and McCain would not have won this prize.

There were many candidates for president. Only one candidate inspired a grassroots movement so powerful that Obama got more of his money from small donations than large ones. Only one candidate was able to win the votes of ideological opponents in geographic areas completely ill-suited to his platform. Only one candidate succeeded in taking buzzwords like "hope" and "change" and building a credible, sincere message around them. And, of course, only one candidate was black, in a country with a permanent black mark in its history.

This award, I think, had very little to do with the Bush presidency. The only relevance of Bush is that Obama is such a contrast to him. Otherwise, it's not about Bush anymore. It's about what Obama was able to remind this country about itself, and what Obama has said he wants to remind the world about America. So far, so good: We're popular again; polling came out a few weeks ago to show that most countries have reversed their Bush-era attitudes toward us. But, beyond popularity is inspiration. And beyond inspiration is achievement. All of this from Candidate Obama. President Obama will succeed, or fail, or fade into irrelevance...but he has earned the opportunity to do more good for the world and for this country than any president since Kennedy.

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #628 on: October 10, 2009, 06:48:46 pm »
There were many candidates for president. Only one candidate inspired a grassroots movement so powerful that Obama got more of his money from small donations than large ones. Only one candidate was able to win the votes of ideological opponents in geographic areas completely ill-suited to his platform. Only one candidate succeeded in taking buzzwords like "hope" and "change" and building a credible, sincere message around them. And, of course, only one candidate was black, in a country with a permanent black mark in its history.
This makes it sound like he deserves just for becoming our President. If you read the actual text here. They sound pretty obvious that they awarded it based on what Obama wants to accomplish more then his accomplishments thusfar, which is bull shit. Hell Facebook has an ongoing poll, not the most well funded or any thing but its still the people, right now there are only 71605 vote but out of those 78% say he doesn't diverse it.

I'll also toss this in, former President Kennedy wasn't that great of a president.

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Re: Humanity: Good News, Bad News
« Reply #629 on: October 10, 2009, 07:09:39 pm »
This makes it sound like he deserves just for becoming our President. If you read the actual text here. They sound pretty obvious that they awarded it based on what Obama wants to accomplish more then his accomplishments thusfar, which is bull shit. Hell Facebook has an ongoing poll, not the most well funded or any thing but its still the people, right now there are only 71605 vote but out of those 78% say he doesn't diverse it.

I'll also toss this in, former President Kennedy wasn't that great of a president.

If you had watched Maddow's segment...that's pretty much what she spends the 11 minutes addressing.

Meanwhile: If the poll is at 78 percent against, then it's been freeped. And you're right; Kennedy wasn't the greatest president. But he committed to the moon race, he negotiated the Cuban Missile crisis, he advanced civil rights, and he went on to become a martyr around whom many future activists and achievers. He thus ranks more highly than he would in presidential greatness.