Humanity: Good News, Bad News

[Thought]

It is amusing to me that some people are so against genetically engineered foods. Manipulating the genes of a plant through selective breeding, turning this into this, or this into this, and that is just fine. But save on countless hours of toil and hundreds of generations of plants by doing things directly to DNA, and lo, you are crossing lines that science apparently was never meant to cross.

But in other news: A Republican Governor votes crazy-ass Republican bills in Arizona. To put things in perspective, this is also the same governor who made it mandatory for all aliens to carry documentation while in the state, so it isn't like she's a saint. But it is nice to see that at least there are some things even too crazy for Republicans like her to stand.

[tushantin]

Good news: It's the Information Age, and thus you can learn more than what College can teach you without paying anything. (For instance, an amateur like me knows more about Computer Science than a professional IT engineer I encountered just yesterday; the poor fellow couldn't even differentiate between types of viruses nor was he able to find out the significance and workings of video formats.)

Bad News: You STILL fucking need to sell an arm and leg to earn a FUCKING PIECE OF PAPER (aka, a Degree) in order to get quality jobs! Otherwise in the industry sector you'll be taken advantage of and are disposable.

Okay, I can understand when it comes to Science and Law, but arts too? Humanity's bullshit, ain't it?

[Licawolf]

I hear ya there, tush. I graduated from college, I finished all my classes, best of the generation, yadda yadda... but nobody cares because I haven't received "the paper" that proves that I have a college degree, just because I haven't been able to finish paying for it. Needles to say, that reduces my salary and my job opportunities significantly.

[alfadorredux]

"Professional IT engineer," in my experience, can mean anything from "I build computer prototypes" to "I take Windows computers that are throwing hissy fits and run Norton over them, then reinstall all the drivers, because I have no idea what the error messages really mean or how to fix them," with the latter being more common. ;P

From the employer's point of view, a piece of paper certifying you've got a degree in, say, history, theoretically proves that you were able to stick with something for at least three years, that you're probably literate and capable of writing a simple sentence, and that you're enough of a self-starter that he won't have to be watching over your shoulder every minute to make sure you're working and not goofing off. (In practice, it's a less-than-effective filter for any of these.) It's a classic case of being unable to measure what you value, and therefore coming to value what you can measure. Also, arbitrarily tossing out the resume of everyone who doesn't have a degree can narrow a pool of a couple of hundred job applicants down to a manageable number, even if it results in the person who is eventually hired not being the best of those who applied.

[tushantin]

@Licawolf: That's terrible. I can see from the perspective of those who offer academics, but the rise of education prices actually put students in debt more than they're supposed to be earning. It sucks that a student's efforts are hindered when money's in the game.

@alfadorredux: Yeah? So capability-wise we're better than them, but a simple degree "proves" they're more accomplished than us? If so, I feel sorry about the folks hiring ignorant pricks like them.

Just being through three years of college doesn't guarantee people won't goof around, and you're right when you said "less-than-effective". Writing simple sentences doesn't take more than the first five grades. Your country, that is the States, and mine own has demonstrated how easy it is to deceive this fragile system by making forgeries and using simple social skills to acquire jobs that thousands strive for. I can understand when it comes to areas where you really need training, but what about areas like Art or Literature? Hey, a kid knows Goethe's Faustus by heart compared to me who only remembers a couple of lines; shouldn't that land him a Ph.D? I can Major in traditional arts, but that still wouldn't make me a better artist than Licawolf or Alcyone!

Come on! This isn't the 80s where you never had trainers or guidance, and the only way to acquire knowledge was school. This is the FUCKING Information Age! I can educate myself in Architecture in merely 2 months without going to college! Shouldn't the system be designed in a way that employees test candidate's capabilities rather than have Degrees mandatory?

If it hasn't started already, I vow that I will be the one to commence it. I'll change the fate of the world with these bare hands. The world need productive and happy workers, not slaves.

[Mr Bekkler]

Tushantin, you have to remember, the "Information" you speak of is the internet, which is relatively young to the eyes of the world. The world has had a system that works well enough they don't want to change it. It is changing, but slowly. It takes patience. I'm not saying I like things the way they are, nor is alfador. The truth is, even with the degree, it's not about the degree. It's about networking.

[tushantin]

I'm not accusing anyone here, Bekkler, I'm just frustrated with the system; folks in my city tell me that despite my skills I'll get paid less because I don't have a degree, but even getting one STILL won't guarantee me a good job despite me paying for the fees and learning things that may or may not be useful in my line of career. It's basically the reason people forget what they learn at schools: if some information isn't useful, if it hasn't been applied in practice, it's forgotten. It's practical!

As for the "Internet", you're actually right. It's funny when I think about it. School was only ever good for basic knowledge and socializing, and my animation institute only provided me a few tips based on what I already knew rather than teaching us what's essential for a GOOD animator or director. I've improved my grammar and vocabulary thanks to the internet. I improved in art and learned techniques thanks to the internet. I learned mandatory animation skills and knowledge, video clean-ups, editing, storyboarding and animatics, speed painting, visualizing, etc. all on the internet. Hell, I even dabbled in literature and science on the internet! Chrono Compendium has taught me more than any college ever could here (even though the range of knowledge was varied).

But don't get me wrong, I don't mean people should be hunching over computers all day. Sources of knowledge are cheap these days. Go to a library, pay a small membership fees and take a book home for a weak. Archaelogy? You got it! Quantum Physics? Just around the corner. Audio books are available, especially for those who like havin your iPods or phones around. But my point here is that every tool can be used in the best ways imaginable.

But this again encourages certain schools to depend on the internet. I've seen a horrible trend here: make kids gather info from the internet, but teach kids nothing. They're basically training them to make presentations without actually teaching them anything (refer to my post of kids not knowing who Da Vinci was). Problem is, kids here also don't know how to properly use computers to gather info in the first place, paying other knowledgeable people to do their homework for them. And we ask ourselves: what is school about again?

[Lord J Esq]

There's one thing that online schooling can't yet replicate: the scholarly environment of academia, and more generally the positive social environment of a place where people have come together to advance the boundaries of human knowledge and get ahead for themselves in life.

[tushantin]

There's one thing that online schooling can't yet replicate: the scholarly environment of academia, and more generally the positive social environment of a place where people have come together to advance the boundaries of human knowledge and get ahead for themselves in life.

That's the only thing I like about em. But for academics in general? No... just no...

I wonder how many schools don't place "stuffing minds of limited capacity with stagnant knowledge" as priority but actually give importance to critical thinking and logic/reasoning, and especially how to apply certain knowledge. It's the ability that's supposed to be basic to human nature, but that very ability seems to be degrading in students and workers alike. They made a survey recently, ya know, that by the end of 2020 there'll only be a handful of productively efficient employees per city. The rest would simply be piling stock resources and working based on that.

Think about German car designs. Think about using the same old, with no innovation for years to come.

Gah! Insomnia has muddled my mind! My sentences are unnecessarily longer and vague...

[Lord J Esq]

But for academics in general? No... just no...

Again, my own experience contradicts your cynicism. Maybe you just didn't go to a good university. I took some classes that were not good, to be sure, but I took others that were stellar and could never have been presented online with equal effectiveness because of the instructor's mood, accessibility, and situational digressions. Remember, "learning" is an extremely complicated process for humans. It's not just about the compilation of facts and figures. For people to learn they need to find an effective mode of learning. It's grossly premature at this point to presume that online classrooms can honestly compete with the real thing.

[Mr Bekkler]

I actually do have teachers who are basically mastheads, only giving directions out of the book we have, and sometimes if we have a problem (read: almost every time we have a problem) we are told, in a very academic style, to "google it". I get your point tushantin, I'm just saying it's the same everywhere that college is available. We're learning more faster than the institution understands, thus they don't know what to teach or how to dispense the information properly. You feel like your money was wasted, they feel like you're a bad student, your potential boss sees the degree, you're on the payroll. All you can do is follow through whatever decision you make.

[tushantin]

Lord J, you confuse my implication. While I did mean that you CAN get required knowledge online I never mentioned that it can compete with proper universities. My frustration lies with the process of education and qualification which have potential to improve but aren't for some reason or the other.

But "by your experience" I would like to ask how old are you, because I would say that mine own experiences at school were far better (besides computer science class) than the standards of education at schools today. Reasons for degrading quality of education could range from everything, from low salary of teachers to having a student simply pass a subject without the need of having him/her understand it properly in the first place. With a process like this, simply passing a grade for the sake of accomplishments and not improve one's capabilities is a major flaw in the education system. Not in every field, mind you, but most of them, yes.

Everything I've learned and done so far holds no meaning unless I spend 200k (which I can never earn with ordinary jobs even if it takes 10 years) and earn at least a bachelor's degree in filmmaking. Even then I'll simply be learning what I already know, and eventually be required to forget all of it just because the actual filmmaking industry works in a different way.

The only reason, for me at least, college is worth going is science. Hard, cold science. There's so much to learn in the field, and mostly via practice and analysis alone. Fields other than that, I still have yet to find a proper, credible university.

@Bekkler: That's what I mean, Bekkler. If all we had to do is use Google, what would be the use of College again? And if professors too incompetent to help students (I've had my fair share of experience), then what kind of logic makes us bad students? If all the professor had to do is dictate from a book, what's the need of a professor again? Are we so illiterate we can't read our own goddamned textbook?

Sucking out the population's... no, the FUTURE'S finance by giving us an answer to the universe: Google it. Seriously? I feel an education system needs to be MORE than all of this.

[Lord J Esq]

I'm 28. But I think that perception, circumstance, mindset, and continent of residence are more salient here than age.

[Syna]

I studied the Humanities (and how), so I'm likely biased because that field benefits so much from discussion.

But my university education was fucking awesome.

[GenesisOne]

Well, since the current flavor of humanity's bad news is the academic environment, I myself have been having a couple of questions on my mind that could use a detailed answer or two. They are:

1) Should education be left to a competitive market? (as opposed to government-run schools)

2) Is compulsory education (i.e. required by law to attend school, especially K-12) doing more harm than good?

3) Should schools have the autonomy to "experiment", and should parents have a choice for what school their kids could attend?

Naturally, if needs come to it, such answers can be relocated to the education thread here in forums, but for now...

I seek answers.