Author Topic: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)  (Read 5087 times)

Kire

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I'm going off of the assumption that all of the refrences to "10,000 years ago" in Chrono Cross refers to circa 12,000 BC.  I'm also going to assume there's a lot more to the World Map than is apparent (otherwise Truce has a population of around a dozen, and the whole world less than 100).

Lavos crashes to earth in 65M BC and begins plotting.  He wants to spawn his progeny around the universe, but he realizes the planet is his biggest foe, so he needs to set up guards against it.  First order of business: kill all the Reptites through making the earth cold.  However, the planet is powerful and is able to keep alive the timeline of the Reptite's survival, instead of them being tossed into the Darkness Beyond Time.  Lavos realizes this and decides he needs a master race for his own use.  He begins radiating power to evolve humans, so that they might one day do his work for him.  In this original timeline, Zeal does not exist, nor does he cause the apocolypse, but he does guide/allow the construction of Chronopolis in 2400 AD.  He causes the time crash and brings it back to him at the time most ideal for him: 13,000 BC.  Humans are the far along in their evolution, but the Ice Age hasn't ended yet.

The Planet takes the bait.  It sends back Dinopolis from the paralell timeline and they do battle.  The Earthbound ones hide in their caves as a massive war goes on outside in the snow.  Eventually, the Dragon God is slain, but Chronopolis is badly damaged too.  The humans begin picking through the rubble of both sides, and learn some of the secrets of both.  Some of the humans learn enough to be called Enlightened.  They construct the Kingdom of Zeal using the Elements of the Planet and the Technology of the Future and call it "magic".  Eventually Queen Zeal comes along and decides she wants more power, and decides to refurbish the ruins of Chronopolis so that she can use it for her own ends.  She enslaves the Earthbound ones and sets them to tasks fixing up and rebuilding Chronopolis, which happens to be located under the ocean.  However, this angers Lavos, as he doesn't want anyone near the Frozen Flame or to tax his power, so he destroys Zeal.  He considers the entire saga of the Zeal Kindgom a "side effect" of combatting the extra timeline the Planet had been brewing.

However, destroying Zeal left Lavos somewhat tired, so he wanted several thousand years, and then he finally did what he set out to do in the first place: create a fertile haven for his children.  This is the 1999 Apocolypse.  He no longer had use for Chronopolis, as the Planet's other timeline had been defeated.  The Lavos Spawn then went out over the galaxy.  That isn't the end of the story of course, Crono & crew murked things up, as did Schala, but I don't have anything new to add to that analysis.

In summary: the Ocean Palace and the Black Omen are, infact, Chronopolis.

Magus068

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 08:43:23 am »
No it's not... If Chronopolis is Ocean Palace/Black Omen then they don't have to question the existance of the Zeal Kingdom.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 07:30:37 pm »
Chronopolis was built, not found. Nuff said on that subject.

Furthermore, your interpretation of the original timeline is all wrong. Zeal was not made with Elements and Technology, but with Magic stolen from Lavos. Chronopolis and Dinopolis were created and brought back in time AFTER CT.

You really need to play CT and CC again and browse this site a bit.

Kire

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2006, 08:11:56 pm »
Humans did build Chronopolis circa 2400 AD.  What I'm insinuating is that it was the Ocean Palace that was found.  (or rather, it took on the name 'Ocean Palace' upon being finished with refurbishment)

What is "magic stolen from Lavos" anyway?  I don't think that was ever explained, so I'm taking some interprative license that it was the remains of Dinopolis & Chronopolis, which would seem to the Enlightened ones "from Lavos".  "Magic" is a pretty vague term after all.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 12:50:26 am »
In Chrono Trigger, an Enlightened One remarks that the Earthbound are helping to construct the Ocean Palace. It was designed and built during the reign of Zeal.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 06:41:39 pm »
"Magic stolen from Lavos" is exactly what it sounds like. Magic, which is, like, whaddya know, stolen from Lavos through the Mammon Machine.

Crawler333

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2006, 09:25:28 am »
Well, in a certain sense, Chronopolis IS Ocean Palace.

Back at the times of Zeal, the greatest dream of the empire was to build a city which could defy time itself-such was the nature of Ocean Palace.After CT, this dream continued to exist through Belthasar, who built Chronopolis with the same purpose-but with a more advanced technology (the one he attained in the "new" 2400 A.D., the one were Chronopolis was built).IMO, this desire is what led Belthasar to conceive Project Kid.Of course, he thought it would have been the best way to free Schala from the Time Devourer, but at the same time it gave him the chance to fulfill the project of his lifetime !!

Chrono'99

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2006, 10:53:39 am »
Yeah, the Ocean Palace and Chronopolis were both built by Belthasar, and it's interesting how he called the former his "masterpiece" in CT, and the latter (or the Time Crash, more precisely) his "finest hour" in CC. This is kind of weird that Belthasar built the Time Fortress, you would think he'd have learnt his lesson after the Mammon Machine fiasco :/ It seems history repeats itself, even for the guy who's supposed to be the Guru of "Reason"...

Zaperking

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2006, 08:26:43 pm »
"Magic stolen from Lavos" is exactly what it sounds like. Magic, which is, like, whaddya know, stolen from Lavos through the Mammon Machine.

No, the power to control it was. Just think of it like them gaining potential energy from Lavos. With that energy, they could manifest things and do whatever (magic). Lavos itself did not provide magic. Otherwise we wouldn't have mystics and Magus, Schala, Zeal etc using magic without the Mammon Machine and Lavos' direct contact etc.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2006, 06:53:16 pm »
...you idiot.

What do you think the energy was that was coming OUT of the Mammon Machine? It was energy that made Lavos wake up in a fury, and it was called "Lavos' Energy." Hmmmm....

Furthermore, it's not like you can keep "Power to control magic" in a machine as an energy/substance, or in dreamstone, or whatever. That's ridiculous.

Zeal is probably still gathering energy and power from the Mammon Machine up to her death since she's still using it, and Magus and Schala, unlike the rest of Zeal, seem to gain their magical powers through an innate sense instead of through unnatural means. And why the heck you brought the Mystics up I don't know.

The Mammon Machine was a source for their energy. That's why they discarded the Sun Stone and other "Elemental energies of this tired planet."

Zaperking

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2006, 07:17:46 pm »
...you idiot.

What do you think the energy was that was coming OUT of the Mammon Machine? It was energy that made Lavos wake up in a fury, and it was called "Lavos' Energy." Hmmmm....

Furthermore, it's not like you can keep "Power to control magic" in a machine as an energy/substance, or in dreamstone, or whatever. That's ridiculous.

Zeal is probably still gathering energy and power from the Mammon Machine up to her death since she's still using it, and Magus and Schala, unlike the rest of Zeal, seem to gain their magical powers through an innate sense instead of through unnatural means. And why the heck you brought the Mystics up I don't know.

The Mammon Machine was a source for their energy. That's why they discarded the Sun Stone and other "Elemental energies of this tired planet."

If Magus and Schala possess it, then so does Zeal. Heck, CC makes references that Belthasar used his magic and wisdom to create a time lab which could never have been done without his first gift.

And sorry, there is no such thing as stolen magic, or Lavoid magic. The Zealians simply use Lavos' energy which is already stolen, to convert it into magical energies. Quite simple. Lavos isn't the epitome of magic, and Spekkio already said that the CT universe was held together by the 4 magical elements. Heck, how do you think the pendant worked? It was infused with a power supply, and then it could be converted into any other type of force. The Mammon Machine is just like an energy tower that sends energy out that it obtains from a generator. It's just that the generator was Lavos. And at the moment when the Mammon Machine went rouge, Lavos awoke because it might have felt that to much energy was being drained. Or the sudden release and loss of so much could have made him realize that something was awry.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2006, 06:25:28 pm »
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If Magus and Schala possess it, then so does Zeal. Heck, CC makes references that Belthasar used his magic and wisdom to create a time lab which could never have been done without his first gift.

I'm not denying the Gurus and Queen Zeal might possess natural magical abilities, but Queen Zeal's were clearly boosted to an unnatural level.

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And sorry, there is no such thing as stolen magic, or Lavoid magic. The Zealians simply use Lavos' energy which is already stolen, to convert it into magical energies.

And what is Magic? Energy. What's Energy? Magic.

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Lavos isn't the epitome of magic, and Spekkio already said that the CT universe was held together by the 4 magical elements.

Yea, I know, but he's a powerful source of it, and the main source for almost all of Zeal.

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Heck, how do you think the pendant worked? It was infused with a power supply, and then it could be converted into any other type of force.

And that power supply was energy stolen from Lavos.

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The Mammon Machine is just like an energy tower that sends energy out that it obtains from a generator. It's just that the generator was Lavos. And at the moment when the Mammon Machine went rouge, Lavos awoke because it might have felt that to much energy was being drained. Or the sudden release and loss of so much could have made him realize that something was awry.

That's exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

Zaperking

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2006, 09:36:39 pm »
No, because you were saing that magic was stolen from Lavos. But in fact, the energy to do things was stolen from Lavos, and was converted into a way of using magic. If it was 1999AD, like with the Frozen Flame, they used it as a power source to power the time experiment (that may have involved anti-proton engines).
There is no such thing as lavoid magic. He's not an innate, and innates aren't of Lavos. Though his mutation process placed upon humans allowed them to tap into using it by themselves.

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I'm not denying the Gurus and Queen Zeal might possess natural magical abilities, but Queen Zeal's were clearly boosted to an unnatural level.
There is nothing unnatural in the Chrono Universe, except for the unnatural evolution speed that humans evolved thanks to an outside source. Everything else exists because it can. Reptites, Humans, Apes, Mystics, Demi-Humans, Hydras, Dragons, Red Moons, dimension travelling boys, star stealing girls lol etc.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2006, 09:38:31 pm by Zaperking »

AuraTwilight

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2006, 06:26:06 pm »
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No, because you were saing that magic was stolen from Lavos. But in fact, the energy to do things was stolen from Lavos, and was converted into a way of using magic.

As I said before, Magic = Energy.

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There is no such thing as lavoid magic. He's not an innate, and innates aren't of Lavos. Though his mutation process placed upon humans allowed them to tap into using it by themselves.

No one ever said he was, but he is a well of magic, since he can use it and it can be taken from him.

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There is nothing unnatural in the Chrono Universe, except for the unnatural evolution speed that humans evolved thanks to an outside source. Everything else exists because it can. Reptites, Humans, Apes, Mystics, Demi-Humans, Hydras, Dragons, Red Moons, dimension travelling boys, star stealing girls lol etc.

There's nothing unnatural in the Chrono Universe? Hm...Machines, Time Eggs, Alternate Universes caused by saving some kid's life that defies known Time Traveling Laws, Kid herself, the Time Devourer, Time Travel itself, Magic, Elements, FATE, the Dragon God, the Masamune, am I missing anything?

evirus

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Re: Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2006, 02:27:04 am »
how about this one of the gurus(the name excapes me) had a hand in building chronopolis correct? being of zealian origin i don't think it would be entirely off base for him to use zealian building styles for chronopolis, this would explain any similarity in appearence