Author Topic: Armageddon-Branch Theory  (Read 4179 times)

Flarestar89

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Armageddon-Branch Theory
« on: September 02, 2006, 07:06:01 pm »
The article "Salt for the Dead Sea" (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html) says that this theory was rejected because it was suggested Lavos was defeated in 15000 BC. I don't see how Lavos could possibly be defeated at that time.

If I'm not mistaken, there are 3 ways to reach Lavos: the Black Omen, the bucket, and the Epoch. All of these, however, take you to 1999. Epoch clearly takes you to 1999 because that is the date you choose. The bucket clearly takes you to 1999 because the Guru tells you so, and the scenes show it.

The Black Omen is not stated to take you to 1999, but it clearly does because if you use the portal next to the save point, you are taken to the bucket. No matter what time you access the Black Omen portal, you are still taken to 1999.

I'm not saying this is fact, this is just what I've observed. If there is evidence to the contrary, and I assume there is, for the theory to be disproven, I am curious what it is.


Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 07:18:32 pm »
Lavos can be defeated in the Ocean Palace in 12,000 B.C.

Flarestar89

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 07:20:52 pm »
Oh, you mean when Chrono is killed?

Flarestar89

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 07:22:27 pm »
Oh, and even though he can be defeated then, how does Cross suggest that is when he was defeated?

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 07:23:37 pm »
Correct. Lavos can be defeated in the battle before Crono's death.

CyberSarkany

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 08:42:45 am »
Yes, but that "only" takes you to the programmers ending.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2006, 12:48:06 pm »
The tipoff that he's beaten in 12000 B.C., besides the commentary in Chrono Cross, is that you see Lavos erupt from the ocean on the overworld after you defeat the Black Omen.

Flarestar89

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2006, 02:03:32 pm »
I.. don't remember seeing that.

 Does it matter what time period you defeated the Black Omen in?

Sentenal

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 12:00:23 am »
You can go through the black omen, or you can use the bucket or the Epoch.

I'm not sure, as it's been a while, but after you beat the Black Omen once, it's gone from all time periods?  If so, it's possible that going through the Black Omen links you to 12,000bc.

However, the other two possible paths lead to 1999ad.  And for that reason, I've always believed that to be the canon.

Legend of the Past

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 10:59:33 am »
You can go through the black omen, or you can use the bucket or the Epoch.

I'm not sure, as it's been a while, but after you beat the Black Omen once, it's gone from all time periods?  If so, it's possible that going through the Black Omen links you to 12,000bc.

However, the other two possible paths lead to 1999ad.  And for that reason, I've always believed that to be the canon.

Once you smash the Omen in one time, it disappers in all the time periods AFTER that one. If you beat the Omen in 600 A.D., the one in 1,000 A.D. vanishes, but vice versa there is no effect on the former..

However, I find it unlikely he really was beaten in 12,000 B.C.  You don't necesarrily see him come of out water, just a black-blue area. Either way, you have the omen shooting a beam into the ocean, making it seem as if Lavos could erupt anywhere he wants, given the stimulation to do so.

Either way, Cross points out the hedgehog was killed in 1999 A.D., I think Miguel says that.

Magus22

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 03:10:43 pm »
The Black Omen appears to transcend time and space. It is as if it's out of phase with normal matter.

I referance the Black Omen to the Star Trek Voyager episode(s), "Year of Hell", in which a temproal weapon threatens the time line. Yet once the weapons was destroyed, everything returned to normal, unlike the Chronoverse. Both the Black Omen and the temporal weapons share common attributes.

Zaperking

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 06:46:01 pm »
You can go through the black omen, or you can use the bucket or the Epoch.

I'm not sure, as it's been a while, but after you beat the Black Omen once, it's gone from all time periods?  If so, it's possible that going through the Black Omen links you to 12,000bc.

However, the other two possible paths lead to 1999ad.  And for that reason, I've always believed that to be the canon.

Once you smash the Omen in one time, it disappers in all the time periods AFTER that one. If you beat the Omen in 600 A.D., the one in 1,000 A.D. vanishes, but vice versa there is no effect on the former..

However, I find it unlikely he really was beaten in 12,000 B.C.  You don't necesarrily see him come of out water, just a black-blue area. Either way, you have the omen shooting a beam into the ocean, making it seem as if Lavos could erupt anywhere he wants, given the stimulation to do so.

Either way, Cross points out the hedgehog was killed in 1999 A.D., I think Miguel says that.

Actually, Cross points quite the opposite. Miguel said that because thanks to a group of teenagers who traversed time and saw the end of the world in the future, they defeated Lavos at the end of their journey.

Chronopolis states that they never had a record of Lavos' eruption, nor does anyone else, but they traced his existance by scanning alternate dimensions and frozen ones too probably and from the Dead Sea realised that they existed on a timeline that was saved. Hence, Lavos didn't erupt in 1999AD, otherwise Chronopolis would have known.

V_Translanka

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2006, 04:01:33 pm »
When you defeat Zeal, she summons Lavos on the spot, she doesn't create a giant time portal transporting Lavos to whenever you defeat her...

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go to 1999 to defeat Lavos when you can defeat him earlier...Why allow Lavos to gain power? I mean, for all we know, Lavos has the power to spawn at all times (you could suppose that's how the spawn in the Black Omen appears) but waits until 1999 where they are at their peak of power, number and DNA manipulation...And we certainly don't want any more possibilities of them around, non?

Legend of the Past

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2006, 11:54:50 am »
You can go through the black omen, or you can use the bucket or the Epoch.

I'm not sure, as it's been a while, but after you beat the Black Omen once, it's gone from all time periods?  If so, it's possible that going through the Black Omen links you to 12,000bc.

However, the other two possible paths lead to 1999ad.  And for that reason, I've always believed that to be the canon.

Once you smash the Omen in one time, it disappers in all the time periods AFTER that one. If you beat the Omen in 600 A.D., the one in 1,000 A.D. vanishes, but vice versa there is no effect on the former..

However, I find it unlikely he really was beaten in 12,000 B.C.  You don't necesarrily see him come of out water, just a black-blue area. Either way, you have the omen shooting a beam into the ocean, making it seem as if Lavos could erupt anywhere he wants, given the stimulation to do so.

Either way, Cross points out the hedgehog was killed in 1999 A.D., I think Miguel says that.

Actually, Cross points quite the opposite. Miguel said that because thanks to a group of teenagers who traversed time and saw the end of the world in the future, they defeated Lavos at the end of their journey.

And what exactly prevents 1999 A.D. from being the last time they visit before the gates close, eh? You can get the best ending even without smashing the Omen, which means they might as well of killed him in 1999.

Quote
Chronopolis states that they never had a record of Lavos' eruption, nor does anyone else, but they traced his existance by scanning alternate dimensions and frozen ones too probably and from the Dead Sea realised that they existed on a timeline that was saved. Hence, Lavos didn't erupt in 1999AD, otherwise Chronopolis would have known.

Unless he was killed fast enough to ensure no recording was in order? Chronopolis was founded in 2300 A.D., so they'd never know, and Lavos never fired an attack. The monitor in Chronopolis shows no actual data about Lavos can be found, which makes sense given the fact the guy vanished into dimensional hell.

DBoruta

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Re: Armageddon-Branch Theory
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2006, 12:10:20 am »
The problem with this Armageddon Branch Theory is that the Black Omen transcends time and space and is connected to Lavos.  Now we know from past theory on Lavos' pocket dimension that Lavos exists in a dimension that is connected to a number of timelines, and because Lavos' pocket dimension is not exactly inside nor outside the flow of time but transcendent, we see that Lavos will exist right up until the point where it dies, whether by natural or unnatural causes.  Let's say Lavos dies of unnatural causes, ie, Crono & co.  So, what we have now is Lavos' pocket dimension existing up to a point in time and then it disappears.  Lavos and its pocket dimension are sent to the DBT from that point onward.  So, what you see is that Lavos' pocket dimension ends up being transcendent up until a point and then the connection is severed. 

Now, after all of this you may be wondering how this is connected at all to the Black Omen.  The Black Omen works in a similar fashion, as it too transcends time and space.  Now, if the Omen is destroyed in a certain time period, the connection, like with Lavos' pocket dimension, is severed after that point.  This indicates the following:

1) If the Black Omen is destroyed in a time period other than 12,000 B.C., it will remain in 12,000 B.C. and following timelines up until the point it was destroyed because the Omen itself is still at least partially still in those timelines before it was destroyed.  I am saying partially because of the transcendent nature of the Omen. 

2) It is ambiguous as to what timeline Lavos is summoned from when the Omen is destroyed.  We know the physical connection point that was severed with the Omen because we know what time period Crono & co. entered it in.  What we don't know definitively is how this transcendent nature plays out when Lavos is summoned - Lavos could have been summoned from any time period the Omen was physically present in before it was destroyed.  We know that this time period, however, had to have been sometime between 12,000 B.C. and 1999 A.D. because when returning to fight Lavos by using the bucket gate to 1999 A.D. from the End of Time, we see that Lavos' outer shell is damaged and defeated.   


Now, my personal thoughts on this are that Lavos was defeated in 1999 A.D.  The evidence I see for this is that when Crono & co. fight Lavos, the gate inside of its shell returns them to the End of Time through the gate contained in the bucket (they land right next to the bucket at the End of Time).  While this could just be a game mechanic, it does suggest that no matter what route Crono & co. takes, the "when" of fighting Lavos is still the same - 1999 A.D.