Author Topic: What is up with all the school shootings...  (Read 4682 times)

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 06:48:28 pm »
Fear...Respect...same difference...and that's a lesson worth knowing! >_>

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2006, 11:48:17 pm »
Quote
I don't know about you, but there is not a single member of the faculty of the high school I went to that I would trust with a firearm of any sort. It also sets a bad message for the kids. In fact, it may be incentive for more school shootings. Look at the common themes of these kids, they are all bullied constantly. To them, school is a place they feel threatened. Giving teachers guns will only escalate the threat level. It's a bad idea.

I'm not saying give all teachers guns.  That would be ridiculous, and impossible to fund.  I'm saying that the ones who have licenses already can get a special license to carry in school.  If you've taken the time to do that, then you're trustworthy with a weapon.  It's still theoretically possible for maniacs to get by, but with the level of requirements I'd put in place for the license it isn't damned likely.

And yes, there are some members of the faculty at the high school I went to that I'd trust with a gun.  They are few, but even one armed defender is better than none.  Plus, it's not like the teachers have to go up to their students and say "Hey kids!  I'm carrying a .38 Special in my coat!"  That's the entire point of concealment; you never know who might pull out a weapon and shoot back.

Also, in the event that some brat kid actually worked up the cojones to bring a weapon and got shot and killed by someone who was armed, the parents wouldn't be able to sue.  In fact, they'd have to pay damages, because anyone who's a bad enough parent not to notice that their kid is going to fucking shoot someone deserves it.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 11:50:46 pm by Hadriel »

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2778
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 12:03:00 am »
A little optimistic there. We live in a society that discourages personal responsibility. No matter the cause, if someone feels that they are wronged, they will sue, and likely win. Perhaps that's the solution. Move society such that it encourages personal responsibility, and doesn't reward histrionics and people with senses of entitlement to things they don't deserve. A more responsible society would put an end to social ills of all sorts, school shootings included.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 01:46:05 am »
I don't believe that a more responsible society would put an end to school shootings.  Responsibility is simply the tendency to carry out your obligations.  It says nothing about ostracizing people you don't like, and that type of loneliness is a major contributing factor.  Getting the short end of the evolutionary stick hurts, and there's no higher power to comfort you about it.  Of course, that same fact empowers a lot of potential shooters with the knowledge that if they're dead, they've effectively gotten away with their crimes.

Alternatively, we could just fund more armed guards at school.  That's probably a lot simpler, and allowing teachers to carry isn't a foolproof approach, though it would improve response time.  Teachers are supposed to be nurturing figures; if someone finds out that a given teacher is packing heat, that pretty much destroys quality of education.  On the other hand, cops are already intimidating authority figures.  We'd have to overhaul police training standards, but they've been needing it anyway.

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 05:44:49 am »
True, I'd rather have a teacher with a gun that needs to go through certain processes to gain a license to have, than be shot dead by some retard who needs to take his revenge on the school.

Another thing, what if I successfully managed to get the gun from the shooter and decided to hold him up til the police came? Wouldn't it be a shame if they thought I was the shooter and went by their shoot-to-kill policy and shot me, well, dead?

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2006, 11:05:01 am »
True, I'd rather have a teacher with a gun that needs to go through certain processes to gain a license to have, than be shot dead by some retard who needs to take his revenge on the school.

Another thing, what if I successfully managed to get the gun from the shooter and decided to hold him up til the police came? Wouldn't it be a shame if they thought I was the shooter and went by their shoot-to-kill policy and shot me, well, dead?

Piston whip him unconscious and drop the gun. Ha!

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2006, 06:48:11 pm »
You don't have to kill him.  If he's already shot someone, it's better to leave him alive; let him rot in jail because there's no hell to rot in.  That of course depends on your current economic situation.  If you can't afford to keep his sorry murdering ass alive, put a bullet in his head and drop him out back for all I care.  It's all that such people deserve.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2006, 07:01:21 pm »
put a bullet in his head and drop him out back for all I care.  It's all that such people deserve.



Dirty Harry, on asked why he chooses to shoot criminals rather than apprehend them:

It gets results.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2006, 08:39:18 pm »
You don't have to kill him.  If he's already shot someone, it's better to leave him alive; let him rot in jail because there's no hell to rot in.  That of course depends on your current economic situation.  If you can't afford to keep his sorry murdering ass alive, put a bullet in his head and drop him out back for all I care.  It's all that such people deserve.

No, no, no, take all of his money and dump him in a secluded 3rd world (or worse?) country. That's[/u] the ticket!

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2006, 10:06:25 pm »
This is why modern criminal justice theory took several thousand years to develop...

Burning Zeppelin

  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3137
    • View Profile
    • Delicate Cutters
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2006, 10:59:38 pm »
The reason I wouldn't kill him is the same reason I hate it when the commit suicide: we don't get the full answers to why it had to happen.

Hadriel

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1044
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2006, 12:35:10 am »
This is why modern criminal justice theory took several thousand years to develop...

I was about to demand evidence for your point, but then it occurred to me that you don't actually have one here.

Really, is it so much to ask that you at least make the attempt to actually say something?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 12:42:24 am by Hadriel »

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2006, 01:57:23 am »
This is why modern criminal justice theory took several thousand years to develop...

I was about to demand evidence for your point, but then it occurred to me that you don't actually have one here.

Really, is it so much to ask that you at least make the attempt to actually say something?

My "point," such as it is, is that I find it disgusting that people can discuss so callously the manner and means in which people would be executed without due consideration of the law, a code of ethics, or even common decency--which, as I implied, is not so common after all. It's idiots like yourselves, who never bother to think about the consequences of or justification for their actions, that are responsible for ten thousand years of needless bloodshed, senseless brutality, and endless tribal warfare, culminated in World War II with this--a masterpiece of engineering, yet a travesty of social progress. Your kind of idiotic, non-thinking, emotionally conceived, impulsive, vindictive, ill-reasoned slop of a code of ethics is why modern justice took longer to invent than every other human achievement ever--and why it is still so hard for people to uphold justice when given the opportunity.

Quote from: Hadriel
You don't have to kill him.  If he's already shot someone, it's better to leave him alive; let him rot in jail because there's no hell to rot in.  That of course depends on your current economic situation.  If you can't afford to keep his sorry murdering ass alive, put a bullet in his head and drop him out back for all I care.  It's all that such people deserve.

Let me put it to you in no uncertain terms, Hadriel: You either do not know what the fuck you are talking about, or you are pathologically oblivious to the wellbeing of other creatures. I see, evidenced here, the same irresponsible lack of critical analysis that you brought to your ridiculous attack on fat people. The difference is that when you're talking about the destruction of human life, the crudeness and emotional depravity of your ignoble numbskullery is all the more sobering.

You think a few comments idly tossed out into a message board in the middle of cyber-nowhere don't mean anything? You think your sentiments are irrelevant, or--worse--defensible? They are neither. When people sit idly by, and condone the sort of speech that would bring about such a terrible blow to the quality of life for so many people, without any significant benefit whatsoever, then it can end up that crazy ideas will become thinkable, and thinkable ideas doable. ZeaLitY's response to you was witty, but he ignored the substance of what you actually said. Well, that's his choice. My choice is to neither be amused nor tacitly condone your reckless would-be terrorism.

Grow up.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2006, 03:19:36 am »
This is why modern criminal justice theory took several thousand years to develop...

Modern, yes, but I always find it amazing how the beginnings of it were already in place back in Classical Greece. Ever read Aeschylus' Eumenedies? It's the culmination of the Oresteia trilogy, thoughout which people have been killing each other in the name of justice (indeed, their causes were just, and at times god-ordered), but each dead only led to another, until finally Orestes, the latest to have killed someone (his mother in this case), is hounded by the Furies because of the blood-guilt that is on him. Vengeance and vindictive justice, the ways of the 'old world' (as Aeschylus portrays it, personified in the Eumenidies), keep going eye for an eye without end. But end it does, because the new gods, the Olympians, who deal not in violence (okay, leap of faith there - this is how they are portrayed in this particular play) and are enlightened, end it, and they do so in this manner. Apollo sends Orestes to Athens, and there the first trial for murder is arranged. Orestes is defended by Apollo, and prosecuted by the Furies. Athene is the judge, and the elders of Athens the jury. They speak their points, the jury has an even vote, and Athene votes on the side of Orestes. The cycle of bloodshed is over, because imparital third-party justice has allowed it.

Now, of course, this myth likely is one of explanation, specifically, how the Areopagus (the council that judged murder trials), came to hold this power. But the idea that violence cannot solve violence, and that reason and order must conquer it, even as the Olympians did the older generation, was one that the Greeks of that era were well aware of. So, while our system has taken a long time to get where it is, the basic premise has existed for at least 2500 years.

You mention in a later post tribalism and its bloodshed. It is interesting, but the Greeks, specifically Athenians, had their various tribes (can't remember how many.) However, during the democratic reforms they were essentially removed, replaced by an artifical group to which one belonged. Especially, it removed the patronymic 'I am this person, son of this person', connection to a clan or large family, which could cause problems within a democracy. Also, it makes it rather difficult to have inter-tribal feuds when the tribes have been annulled. Tribalism and imparital justice are very difficult to reconcile.

(Certainly, there were other forms of this as well. Laws were codified, and I'm absolutely certain that even in 3000BC councils of elders decided matters such as this. But this is the earliest examination of the uselessness of vengeance that I can think of.)

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: What is up with all the school shootings...
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2006, 04:02:52 am »
I appreciate that, Daniel. Your historical addition to the dialogue is a good complement to my necessarily high-tension reprimand.