Author Topic: Multiple Dimension Existence  (Read 11000 times)

V_Translanka

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Multiple Dimension Existence
« on: June 17, 2004, 09:28:26 pm »
The dimension in which the Entity does not step in (I think it's called the Lavos-Timeline or is it Keystone1?) is destroyed or sent to the dbt (or whatever), right? So then, how do other Dimensions exist at all? If a new timeline is created, the old is destroyed, right? So wouldn't that mean that as soon as something new happens, other dimensions which are being created as a branch of that thing would be sent to the dbt. So how does Home World exist? How does the dimension of the Reptites exist? I feel like I'm missing something...?

Leebot

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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2004, 10:20:10 pm »
The split between Another and Home is a special case. Schala/Kid interfered in a manner that caused the split. The Reptite timeline and Radical Dreamers timeline were created separately from the CT/CC timelines, but with certain similarities and differences. Timelines are only sent to the DBT when time travel within them causes changes; there's a theory around, (probably on the axioms thread) that details this rule.

Essentially:

-Infinite timelines were created at the beginning of time, with differing initial conditions. Some of these are very similar to each other. Travel between these timelines is usually not possible.

-Time travel causes splits within a certain timestream. Discarded strands are sent to the DBT. In certain cases, a strand is preserved, and travel is possible (Another/Home, for example).

V_Translanka

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Multiple Dimension Existence
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2004, 08:46:22 am »
Some of that makes me think that if there was an infinate number of timelines created in the beginning, then a timestream may be discarded to the dbt because it is a duplicate of sorts. The Lavos-timeline was discarded because it was no longer possible on that timestream perhaps? So, under that belief, it's still possible for Lavos to exist on another axis of time on another timestream.

The words almost feel right, but it just seems so wrong...Maybe I got lost somewhere? Haha...hm...

Leebot

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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2004, 12:29:48 pm »
This is mostly based off of modern Quantum Mechanical theory, which is referenced in Chronopolis to explain how multiple, separate timelines exist. Timelines are discarded to the DBT as a result of time travel within them which creates a new timeline, overwriting the old one.

Symmetry

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2004, 04:54:16 pm »
I assume there is a timeline where Crono & crew failed to defeat Lavos.

Which brings up a problem, or what appears to be a problem. What happens when the Time Devourer defeats Serge? If there is a timeline for each possibility... this would seem to lead to the Time Devourer being successful in its goal, for all it needs to do is fuse with Schala and it will consume everything, right?

Perhaps the DBT functions under another set of rules wherein the actions that take place there are "final"?

GrayLensman

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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2004, 06:52:59 pm »
Quote from: Symmetry
I assume there is a timeline where Crono & crew failed to defeat Lavos.

Which brings up a problem, or what appears to be a problem. What happens when the Time Devourer defeats Serge? If there is a timeline for each possibility... this would seem to lead to the Time Devourer being successful in its goal, for all it needs to do is fuse with Schala and it will consume everything, right?

Perhaps the DBT functions under another set of rules wherein the actions that take place there are "final"?


The bad ending of Chrono Trigger addresses your first question.  In every time-line that existed before Crono defeated Lavos, the Day of Lavos is not averted.  "But...the future refused to change."

Secondly, the time-line of the Time Devourer in the DBT is completely separate from that of Serge and company.  A good analogy is that the axis of the time-lines are perpendicular.  Time does not pass in the DBT relative to the outside world.  The timeline where the TD is completed only exists in the future of its own dimension, and the destruction of the universe will not occur in Serge's own future.

Symmetry

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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2004, 12:41:16 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Secondly, the time-line of the Time Devourer in the DBT is completely separate from that of Serge and company.  A good analogy is that the axis of the time-lines are perpendicular.  Time does not pass in the DBT relative to the outside world.  The timeline where the TD is completed only exists in the future of its own dimension, and the destruction of the universe will not occur in Serge's own future.


I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying and I'm not sure I communicated properly what I wanted to say. Lemme try again.

Even if the two timelines are prependicular, at some point in the DBT the Time Devourer will face Serge, correct? At that point, whenever it happens, there is the possibility that Serge loses. If the Time Devourer is successful in any timeline, this would mean the destruction of the universe. Thus, if there exists a timeline for every possible outcome, the destruction of the universe would be inevitable - if the DBT follows the same rules as other timelines.

Does that make sense?

Leebot

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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2004, 02:13:54 am »
I see what you're saying. The best explanation would be to say that the Time Devourer can only "devour" one timeline. It lacks the power to cross over to separate timelines (where Serge defeated it) and devour them.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2004, 03:41:52 am »
Quote from: Leebot
I see what you're saying. The best explanation would be to say that the Time Devourer can only "devour" one timeline. It lacks the power to cross over to separate timelines (where Serge defeated it) and devour them.

That isn't the case, because the Time Devourer is supposed to consume all space and time.

Quote
Belthasar: The Devourer of Time is a new life-form... Born out of the fusion of a life-form from this planet with Lavos, who nests on the far side of the dimensional void. In the far-off future, when the fusion ecomes complete, IT will awaken... Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time continua... Despair and hatred... To return all things to nothingness... That is what IT desires.

Quote from: Symmetry
I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying and I'm not sure I communicated properly what I wanted to say. Lemme try again.

Even if the two timelines are perpendicular, at some point in the DBT the Time Devourer will face Serge, correct? At that point, whenever it happens, there is the possibility that Serge loses. If the Time Devourer is successful in any timeline, this would mean the destruction of the universe. Thus, if there exists a timeline for every possible outcome, the destruction of the universe would be inevitable - if the DBT follows the same rules as other timelines.

Does that make sense?

This isn't too hard to understand, but I explained it rather poorly.  I'll try to be more sensible this time.

If the TD existed on the same space-time as Serge, in the time-line where Serge had not yet defeated the TD (i.e. before the time crash), the TD would have an unlimited duration of time to mature and thus result in the destruction of all existence.  If the TD experienced a passage of time as time passed in normal space-time, the TD would have appeared and destroyed all existence the moment Crono landed the death-blow to Lavos.

Thus, we conclude that time does not pass relative to the outside universe for the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time (the time axis are perpendicular).  This is similar to how Lavos' pocket dimension behaves:  Lavos experiences a passage of time, but not relative to the outside world.  From all time periods, Lavos appears to be in the same state.  This is explained in more detail in the Lavos topic.

In Chrono Trigger, Lavos is always fully mature.  In the original timeline, Lavos was mature because the Day of Lavos had occurred.  We can conjecture that the Reptite Dimension would exist while Lavos was maturing within the pocket dimension.  After Crono Started changing the time-line, Lavos remained unchanged, regardless of the time-period.

Likewise, the Time Devourer exists within the Darkness Beyond Time, which is a completely separate dimension from Home/Another.  The TD experiences time as we know it, but not relative to Serge's space-time.  At every instance on the TD's time-line in the DBT, it appears frozen in time from any point on Serge's time-line.  An unlimited time may pass on Serge's time-line without the TD every appearing.  The instant the TD reaches the maturity on its own time-line, it will instantaneously be manifested at all points on Serge's time-line—a scenario which never comes to pass.  Even in the bad ending of Chrono Cross, the TD simply returns to its (relatively) frozen existence, and Serge may live out his life in peace.

All possible time-lines may be represented by separate dimensions.  We don't know whether the DBT is common to all dimensions, or if there can thus be more than one TD.  It would seem that if there are multiple Time Devourers, the destruction of the universe is a possibility.  This is a topic requiring further discussion.

Symmetry

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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2004, 01:50:17 pm »
Okay, I think get what you're saying. Before, when you said perpendicular, I registered "parallel".

Quote from: GrayLensman
All possible time-lines may be represented by separate dimensions.  We don't know whether the DBT is common to all dimensions, or if there can thus be more than one TD.  It would seem that if there are multiple Time Devourers, the destruction of the universe is a possibility.  This is a topic requiring further discussion.


This is what I was trying to get at. If the TD wins in one, it seems to effectively win in all. As you said, this hinges on whether or not there are multiple Time Devourers.

chronotriggerfreak

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Multiple Dimension Existence
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2004, 04:49:14 pm »
As far as I see it, all the "Timelines" (Lavos, Keystone 1 and Keystone 2) we actually play in are contained within one "dimension." Home and Another are the only separate dimensions we actually see, and we hear of the Reptite dimension that Dinopolis came from. The Darkness Beyond Time exists essentially above and beyond all the other dimensions, and as such it does not have any parallel dimensions in which alternate events and results occur. Therefore, if the TD is defeated there, that's it. It's gone.

Which, I think, is exactly the same as what everyone else has been saying, but I'm just checking.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2004, 05:45:52 pm »
Quote from: chronotriggerfreak
As far as I see it, all the "Timelines" (Lavos, Keystone 1 and Keystone 2) we actually play in are contained within one "dimension." Home and Another are the only separate dimensions we actually see, and we hear of the Reptite dimension that Dinopolis came from. The Darkness Beyond Time exists essentially above and beyond all the other dimensions, and as such it does not have any parallel dimensions in which alternate events and results occur. Therefore, if the TD is defeated there, that's it. It's gone.

Which, I think, is exactly the same as what everyone else has been saying, but I'm just checking.


That is mostly correct; however, probability negates that and suggests that there is only one Darkness Beyond Time per dimension or dimensions that exist as branches of one another. Surely, if infinite dimensions exist, and one Time Devourer who could destroy them all could come about, would not the universe already be destroyed? That is why I believe there is one DBT per dimension or dimensional branch, and that timelines change and exist within a parent dimension. Crono never split the dimensions of the Keystone, or Another dimension, but simply rewrote time. Only the act of saving Serge somehow caused the dimensions to split, whereas the Reptite Dimension and Radical Dreamers Dimension are separate possibilities completely which do not branch directly from the others as Home World does from Another.

This is why I believe the word 'dimension' in the Chrono series should be thought of as representing moreso tangible universes than just possibilities.

Symmetry

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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2004, 05:57:23 pm »
Perhaps the DBT does not exist for each timeline or dimension, but rather is the single repository for all altered timelines, period. Thus, there would only be one Time Devourer and once defeated, that would be the end of it.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2004, 06:05:55 pm »
Yes, the DBT by definition is a place where discarded timelines go, though if it existed for everything, a Time Devourer's probability of existence would be infinite, and everything would be already destroyed, wouldn't it?

Leebot

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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2004, 06:54:16 pm »
These are the possibilities that I can see to explain this:

1) Belthasar was exaggerating slightly, or we're misinterpreting him; the Time Devourer can only devour its own dimension.

2) The DBT is the same for all dimensions, and the TD only exists once within it. Serge defeated the one TD, so that's that.

3) The DBT is unique to each dimension, and multiple TD's exist. Through some quirk of fate/probability, there is a 100% chance that if the TD is created, it will be destroyed.

4) The DBT is unique to each dimension, and multiple TD's exist. One of them will eventually (along its own perpendicular time axis) devour everything. However, the timelines we see are not yet at that "time," and will exist until that "time." Since some form of "time" must flow for the TD, it can only devour timelines from a certain "time" on. We're screwed, but we'll never know it.

5) The DBT is unique to each dimension, and multiple TD's exist. One succeeded in devouring all of reality. This game is just what would have happened if it hadn't.

Aside: The idea of a second, perpendicular time axis is the basis of my Time-Error theory, which helps explain possibility 4. I explained it here: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=206

To me, theory 1 seems the most likely. The possibility that a TD or similar beast could exist which would devour all dimensions and all continua coupled with infinite possibilities would seem to prevent the universe from existing at all. There must be some limit on its power.