Multiple Dimension Existence

[ZeaLitY]

Regardless of the forces behind its formation, the fact that the Time Devourer has happened establishes the possibility of Time Devourers period. And what happens to any probability, no matter how small, when multiplied times infinity?

[DBoruta]

The point about this is that it wasn't ever supposed to happen.  Really, under normal circumstances of the Chrono universe, the probability of this happening was supposed to be zero.  Discarded timelines, dimensions, etc...  as well as normal dimensions all end up full circle at the DBT and follow a set path.  What happened was when Crono & co. created a new timeline by killing Lavos, they really screwed things up and caused Lavos to arrive at the DBT in a completely unnatural fashion.  I don't quite understand how that could happen, but it did.  

Now I understand what you're talking about with the whole idea of if it can happen once, why can't there be an infinite possibility of it happening with all these other possible dimensions out there.  The thing is, the Keystone Dimension is an anomaly within itself.  It too was never supposed to exist, and because of that, it really screwed up the rest of the natural order of space-time.  So, if this exception happening were to become the norm in every dimension, then you could be right.  I don't believe that to be the case, however, as this was a very unique exception and should be treated as some kind of freak occurrance on a space-time level.

[ZeaLitY]

It only requires a malovalent entity of sufficient power to bring it about. If Lavos arrived there simply through its own machinations or being defeated, then Lavoids are perhaps susceptible to that, and there exist many throughout space. If Schala entered there through a normal dimensional distortion caused by errant temporal energy -- well, Belthasar has proven with Time Eggs that one can arbitrarily go there with enough genius and skill to forge the path. The conditions merely dictate that Lavos be given an Arbiter to bind with. While that is improbable, considering that Schala could have easily escaped the Palace and not fallen into that distortion, it still happened, meaning its possibility has been proven. I don't see how mathematics can be trumped in the issue. Even if the conditions are improbable, as long as the probability is nonzero and the known universe will exist for an infinite length of time, it will happen.

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is, the Keystone Dimension is an anomaly within itself. It too was never supposed to exist

Where the hell does that come from? I was under the impression that it was the only "true" timeline, hence the term Keystone.

[DBoruta]

It only requires a malovalent entity of sufficient power to bring it about. If Lavos arrived there simply through its own machinations or being defeated, then Lavoids are perhaps susceptible to that, and there exist many throughout space. If Schala entered there through a normal dimensional distortion caused by errant temporal energy -- well, Belthasar has proven with Time Eggs that one can arbitrarily go there with enough genius and skill to forge the path. The conditions merely dictate that Lavos be given an Arbiter to bind with. While that is improbable, considering that Schala could have easily escaped the Palace and not fallen into that distortion, it still happened, meaning its possibility has been proven. I don't see how mathematics can be trumped in the issue. Even if the conditions are improbable, as long as the probability is nonzero and the known universe will exist for an infinite length of time, it will happen.

I'm not trying to argue so much with the mathematics as I am with the paradigm being used to view the mathematics.  The paradigm you're using says that this can happen easily, and I really find that hard to believe to be the case.  

Where the hell does that come from? I was under the impression that it was the only "true" timeline, hence the term Keystone.

Sorry, I must have worded that poorly.  What I was referring to was Keystone T-1 and T-2, etc...  - the results of what happened during Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.  Those all happened in the Keystone Dimension, and what really happened was the original Keystone Dimension was sent to the DBT and a new one was created in its place as a result of Chrono Trigger alone.  That happened unnaturally and very well could have screwed up the balance of space-time, causing Lavos and Schala to arrive at the DBT unnaturally.  In other words, Lavos' death at the hands of Crono & co. caused a lot of weird stuff to happen that never should have happened.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Hm. Zeality's position is basically thus:

My defense is mathematical; if there is a nonzero chance of a TD forming, given the universe exists for infinity, then it is inevitable that one will arise and devour all reality

I think we can safely say that the chance of a TD forming is nonzero, as we've seen it happen. Anything that happens has a chance of happening. Now, since the universe wasn't destroyed, we also know that there is a chance the TD will fail to devour all reality.

Assume that each dimension has it's own DBT. If this is the case, and DBT is then inextricably bound to its dimension, if the TD succeeds, it can only destroy it's own dimension, as other dimensions are out of its scope. However, since interdimensional travel is known to be possible in the Chrono series, and beings can exit the DBT (see: the party) if there are an infinite set of possible universes, eventually a TD will arrise that can cross the dimensions. Luckily, it cannot possibly devour all time lines, we know this because if a TD had succeeded, Chrono Cross never would have happened.

If we assume that there is only one DBT, there is nothing to stop an infinite set of TD to wind up there, trying to devour reality. And if you have an infinite set of TDs setting out to accomplish something that they are all technically capable of, eventually one of them is going to do it. If this is the case, then Chrono Cross didn't happen. But it did, so we that obviously is not the case.

[ZeaLitY]

I guess one unexplained question is how an entity becomes aware of other dimensions. And I'm not talking about other dimensions as in dimensions that have split from one another, as there are instrinsic links between those (specifically, the Missing Piece bit). I speak of the possible other worlds, including the Reptite dimension. The planet's tapping into Dinopolis proved that it is apparently aware of more than one dimension, which is troublesome. What if a multidimensional Time Devourer arose someday?

I believe the remedy for that could be that the consumption of spacetime could only be possible in the Darkness Beyond Time; that only its unique connection with time would allow it. But could a Time Devourer still become aware of other dimensions while in the DBT?

This is very speculative, so let's examine the evidence. The planet is the only entity which displays awareness of a dimension outside of Home and Another, which split off from one another and are thus abnormally linked (they don't exist apart like countless other possible worlds that never intersect). How is the planet aware of the Reptite Dimension? Because it exists in that dimension is my only answer.

Taking that a step further, if we consider that a rule, a Time Devourer could never consume other dimensions if it were not aware of them. If by chance two dimensions did exist with two identical Time Devourers in them, perhaps they would become aware of one another. But they'd still only be able to devour their respective dimensions.

This all is flawed by the problem of identity, however. Why is the planet the "same" person across two dimensions? How could that status be granted to other people or entities? That's too deterministic and against the Chrono theme of free will. There is no cosmological ruler who has a list of defined people and identities who can compare with other dimensional lists and link them together.

So for now, I believe it will remain a mystery why the planet is aware of multiple dimensions.

[Mystik3eb]

Here's a perspective I didn't think to take into account when analyzing the Base Timeline theory.

It's not just that there is a timeline perspective of permanence including the changes in timelines and stuff like that. Think of people, humans, spirits, whatever. If Crono time travels back in time, his life is still moving forward in time along with the Base Timeline. When he goes back to his time, he'll have been gone as long as he was in the previous time. His life kept moving along outside his own timeline.

I'm one to believe that there are not an infinite number of dimensions. Cuz then why would the Entity care about THIS one? This sole, only little one? That doesn't make sense if there are also potentially trillions of others with slight differences that still end in pain through Lavos' pandemona.

How did the planet pull Dinopolis out of the Reptite dimension? It pulled it out of a discarded dimension in the DBT.

So I guess that means I rephrase my theory. Not an infinite number of dimensions exist outside the DBT. I've come to consider now the DBT to be more than a timeline wastebasket: it's a database for all non-existing possibilities, including the Reptite Dimension.

So there is only one DBT, only one EoT, only one TD...

...how about that?

[Chrono'99]

The Planet doesn't have to be aware of multiple dimensions. Maybe it just "thought" about Dinopolis, and brought it to reality purely from its mind (or maybe from the DBT?). Then, maybe that Dinopolis belonged to some other dimension, but it's irrelevant: as far as the Keystone Planet is concerned, it's a product of its own mind. Whether the Reptite Dimension really exists as a parralel dimension or not, maybe the Dinopolis that the Planet thought of was really just in its mind, like "oh if Lavos didn't fall my dear Reptites would have prospered and built a nice Dinopolis instead of this troublesome Chronopolis".

It's kinda like a dream which came true (like Marbule's nightmare and Turnip but more spectacular). Actually, it's kinda like the whole Keystone T-1 and T-2 timelines ("the dream of our planet").

[DBoruta]

If we assume that there is only one DBT, there is nothing to stop an infinite set of TD to wind up there, trying to devour reality. And if you have an infinite set of TDs setting out to accomplish something that they are all technically capable of, eventually one of them is going to do it.

Are you assuming that there are an infinite amount of chances that have a high probability of happening?  If you are, that's way too easy to be true.  The way I'm viewing this now is that you could have these infinite amount of chances, but they have such a low probability of actually happening that it's very close to zero.  What happened with Lavos becoming the Time Devourer was that due to the events of Chrono Trigger, the probability for its chance got bumped up somehow, causing the events of Chrono Cross to happen.

[AuraTwilight]

How did the planet pull Dinopolis out of the Reptite dimension? It pulled it out of a discarded dimension in the DBT.

OOOooooh. I like it.

The Planet doesn't have to be aware of multiple dimensions. Maybe it just "thought" about Dinopolis, and brought it to reality purely from its mind (or maybe from the DBT?). Then, maybe that Dinopolis belonged to some other dimension, but it's irrelevant: as far as the Keystone Planet is concerned, it's a product of its own mind. Whether the Reptite Dimension really exists as a parralel dimension or not, maybe the Dinopolis that the Planet thought of was really just in its mind, like "oh if Lavos didn't fall my dear Reptites would have prospered and built a nice Dinopolis instead of this troublesome Chronopolis".

And with alllllllll that Dreamstone....dayum.

[Radical_Dreamer]

If we assume that there is only one DBT, there is nothing to stop an infinite set of TD to wind up there, trying to devour reality. And if you have an infinite set of TDs setting out to accomplish something that they are all technically capable of, eventually one of them is going to do it.

Are you assuming that there are an infinite amount of chances that have a high probability of happening?  If you are, that's way too easy to be true.  The way I'm viewing this now is that you could have these infinite amount of chances, but they have such a low probability of actually happening that it's very close to zero.  What happened with Lavos becoming the Time Devourer was that due to the events of Chrono Trigger, the probability for its chance got bumped up somehow, causing the events of Chrono Cross to happen.

It doesn't really matter though, that's the thing. If there is an event with any nonzero chance of occuring, and you run the "experiment" as it were an infinite amount of times, you are guaranteed to get the result, as well as every other possible result, no matter how improbable.

With infinite iterations, probability only determines relative frequency.

[DBoruta]

t doesn't really matter though, that's the thing. If there is an event with any nonzero chance of occuring, and you run the "experiment" as it were an infinite amount of times, you are guaranteed to get the result, as well as every other possible result, no matter how improbable.

With infinite iterations, probability only determines relative frequency.

Going on that, then, and seeing that it did happen once, what can we conclude about the relative frequency?  The relative frequency of an event like this occurring must be extremely low, otherwise something else under the same conditions might have beaten Lavos to devouring all of space-time, assuming there is a something else that could undergo the same conditions observed.

[ZeaLitY]

It seems that this even poses a problem if we consider the Darkness Beyond Time as unidimensional. Even then, with a universe incomparably huge compared to the planet could possibly set the stage for many more Time Devourer type beings to arise. The Keystone Planet isn't the only of its kind, since Lavos originated somewhere. I guess even with a single dimension DBT, there is still a chance of a Time Devourer forming even outside of the planet and ruining it for everyone.

What is our escape? That the universe isn't infinity? That would severely limit the problem (versus multidimensional DBT qualifying infinity easily).

[DBoruta]

What is our escape? That the universe isn't infinity? That would severely limit the problem (versus multidimensional DBT qualifying infinity easily).

We do have one escape - the conditions under which the Time Devourer came to exist in the first place.  The conditions under which Lavos, along with Schala, unnaturally arrived at the DBT could be very unique.  Furthermore, if Lavos had arrived at the DBT unnaturally by itself, we can be almost certain that it would not have been able to become the Time Devourer.  It is when Lavos is fully merged with Schala that it can finally become the Time Devourer.  The question in mind, however, is why?  Schala is powerful, but definitely not as powerful as Lavos.  One answer may be that Lavos is incomplete due to the Frozen Flame being separated from it.  If Schala was the original arbiter (then passed onto Serge before the events of Chrono Cross), she might have been the link between the Flame and Lavos.  A completely evolved Lavos could have become the Time Devourer then.  

So, these are very unique conditions, and these unique conditions do leave us with a possible answer to the problem at hand.