Two Black Omen Mysteries

[Faulce]

ok, two things to talk about: (1)The Mammon Machine was apparently destroyed in the Ocean Palace disaster, and the party sees the broken down Mammon Machine in the Black Omen.  And.....then you fight a fully restored version of the Mammon M.  The battle takes place in, i guess, the pocket dimension surrounding that Lavos has.  Queen Zeal says that she will "simply throw [them] into the Mammon Machine!".  What's that mean? And why does the Mammon M. still exist, when it has been and apparently still is destroyed?

(2)  In the Black Omen, you fight a Lavos Spawn.  It looks exactly the same as the ones you fight on Death Peak except a few odd things happen before you fight it.  First off, its introduced by coming out of what appears to be a gate.  Second, it makes the same sound Lavos does, yet none of the other Lavos Spawn make the same sound.  And of course, as the battle shows the player, this Lavos Spawn is much stronger and uses different attacks.  Now in the game there is another gate-like portal that is actually just a transport through 'space' not time.  it leads from the zeal palace to the ocean palace.  I wondered if perhaps the Lavos Spawn you fight in the Black Omen is actually baby Lavos; but killing Lavos as a child would make him cease to exist in 1999A.D. unless his pocket dimension somehow protects him; furthermore, things in the Black Omen are distorted, for some reason, killing the boss Mutants in the Present Black Omen leaves them still dead even if you infiltrate the Dark Ages Black Omen, yet Queen Zeal Remains intact until you defeat her in the Dark Ages. I dunno, I'm probably just messing with somethin not important, but for those who care, here are the stats for the Lavos Spawn on Death Peak and the Lavos Spawn in the Black Omen, in that order.
Death Peak-
Mouth::HP: 4000; Weakness, Absorbs, Cancels: N/A; Item Won: Elixir; Charm: Elixir; EXP: 747; G: 500; Tech. points: 120; Shell:: HP: 10000;
Attacks:: Mouth: Blizzard/Chaos, Lavos's Sigh/Sleep, Blanket Bomb/Fire, Lavos Spawn Needle; Shell: (counter) Lavos Spawn Needle

Black Omen-
Mouth::HP: 10000 ; Weaknesss,Absorbs,Cancels: N/A; Item Won: None; Charm: Haste Helm; EXP:2450; G: 2500; Tech. points: 120;
Shell:: HP: 13500; Charm: Safe Helm; Attacks:: Mouth: Wtr Rise/Water, Dark Bomb/Shadow, Destruction Zone, Lavos Spawn Needle Disorder; Shell: (counter) Lavos Spawn Needle.

hmm, why the differences and the gate entrance? if its just a transportation gate, where did the Lavos Spawn come from??

[V_Translanka]

Yes, Black Omen fun to go through Always go through at each time period.

1) Mammon Machine Stuff - I...Don't know about all that...I think I took it for being exestential or something...Not my field? Someone else perhaps?

2) a.Black Omen Lavos Spawn Stuff - I always thought that it was a Lavos Spawn that was simply more developed than those on Death Peak, which seem almost newborn to me, I thought that's what Death Peak was in a way. Where Lavos...spawns...or something...It does say something about Lavos supposedly sitting up on Death Peak or some such...

P.S. further evidence of spacial (whoa! sp? that's a word, right?) transportation gates can be found on the way up to Zeal Castle (or whatever...Palace?) in all those little caves...Although they're kinda different...

2) b.Black Omen Through Time Stuff - I thought that perhaps this was evidence of the Black Omen somehow feeding off of temporal energies...Or maybe the Black Omen's insides (or at least sections of it) is actually in a sort of pocket dimension like one Lavos resides within. So that each monster or boss remains indifferent. Perhaps the place with Zeal isn't in this pocket dimension, and you can also look at it as the Zeal fight occurs (at least finishes) ON the Black Omen and not inside it.

[ZeaLitY]

1. Mammon Machine

From the Ocean Palace/Black Omen Discussion Thread

How do two Mammon Machines exist -- the ruin seen in the Black Omen and the functioning version seen in the Pocket Dimension?

The Mammon Machine is a "A trans-dimensional object. One object, but expressed in two dimensions at the same time." (GrayLensman) It is possible that "the Mammon Machine, when it began to interface with Lavos, split, one of which stayed in the pocket dimension gathering power from Lavos, with the other staying out and processing it." (Aitrus) "The Keystone Dimension equivalent was damaged by the Ocean Palace stabbing. Keystone PD-1's is flawless until blown up in the BLack Omen sidequest." (ZeaLitY)

2. Lavos Spawn and Transcending Time

Translanka is correct; Lavos spawn were made on Death Peak, so it is safe to assume that this spawn is more mature. Additionally, the Black Omen transcends time in that it does not age.

[Symmetry]

Being "thrown into the Mammon Machine" is an odd way of explaining that the party is about to be cast into the MM's dimension. (If the trans-dimensional theory is correct.)

Is this just an odd bit of translation?

[Faulce]

Ok good, that all makes sense.  But why can you fight Zeal 3 times, but can only fight the Lavos Spawn and the 3 Mutants once.  It could just be a game thing, but even if the Black Omen does not age, time still passes around it, so wouldnt killing the GigaMutant in the Present still leave it existing in the Middle Ages and Dark Ages, just like with Queen Zeal?

[V_Translanka]

Another Theory: All of those bosses in the Black Omen all seem to be summoned to the Black Omen more then they are just always there. So perhaps they can only be summoned once, like from some kind of Lavos-like pocket dimension or something. Zeal is not summoned, so she exists in all time periods prior to the ones you faced her at previously.

[Faulce]

Another Theory: All of those bosses in the Black Omen all seem to be summoned to the Black Omen more then they are just always there. So perhaps they can only be summoned once, like from some kind of Lavos-like pocket dimension or something. Zeal is not summoned, so she exists in all time periods prior to the ones you faced her at previously.

thank you!  that makes a lot of sense.  so now i have only two more questions on the Black Omen.  Why wouldnt the lasers in the front be there even if you only defeat them in the present.  and why does queen zeal only confront the party the first time she sees them or (if you start that the present) the "third" time she sees them? (im talking about the whole Black Omen 'age' thing)

[Symmetry]

I also seem to remember figures of the party members hovering in beams of light off to the side when you enter Queen Zeal's chamber at the end of the Black Omen. (Maybe I'm remembering wrong.)

Any idea what those are for or are supposed to represent?

[ZeaLitY]

Most likely just a creepy thing, SYmmetry. This was one of the very first questions asked on the CT/RD/CC/CB thread of yore.

As for the inconsistencies regarding bosses and dialogue, that can be attributed to the game.

[V_Translanka]

The Zeal "hello" deal I thought was just a hologram, so that it could only be played once? or perhaps Zeal has access to seeing into the future using the Mammon Machine? So then she'd only transmit once...

As for the lasers...No idea...I guess my old theory about the Mammon Machine is powered by temporal energy...Perhaps the Mammon Machine's energy source is inside of a pocket dimension...Wait, doesn't that make sense? Because the Mammon Machine is in a pocket dimension, right? And it's like the powerstation isn't it? Drawing power from Lavos (also in a pocket dimension). So then, the energy of the Black Omen could simply be limited in that regard to one surge or something.

[Chrono'99]

About the Mammon Machine(s), where has the Masamune gone to?

EDIT: oh, maybe it has just teleported out.

[Faulce]

The Zeal "hello" deal I thought was just a hologram, so that it could only be played once? or perhaps Zeal has access to seeing into the future using the Mammon Machine? So then she'd only transmit once...

As for the lasers...No idea...I guess my old theory about the Mammon Machine is powered by temporal energy...Perhaps the Mammon Machine's energy source is inside of a pocket dimension...Wait, doesn't that make sense? Because the Mammon Machine is in a pocket dimension, right? And it's like the powerstation isn't it? Drawing power from Lavos (also in a pocket dimension). So then, the energy of the Black Omen could simply be limited in that regard to one surge or something.

So wait, are you saying that the lasers are not there because of the pocket dimension?  In other words, you destroy the lasers once in any time period, and they are gone for good? ok... but then why does the Black Omen exist in past eras even when you destroy it in present?  If you destroy the lasers in the present, they are gone for good, but the Black Omen itself....  or maybe i took what you said completely different from what i should have gotten from it, i have a tendency to do that

[Symmetry]

So wait, are you saying that the lasers are not there because of the pocket dimension?  In other words, you destroy the lasers once in any time period, and they are gone for good? ok... but then why does the Black Omen exist in past eras even when you destroy it in present?  If you destroy the lasers in the present, they are gone for good, but the Black Omen itself....  or maybe i took what you said completely different from what i should have gotten from it, i have a tendency to do that

Doesn't the Omen disappear from all eras once you destroy it?

[Faulce]

no, if you destroy it in the present, you can still fight it two more times in the past.  i would know because im doing it again right now. hence why i thought of this topic.

[Symmetry]

no, if you destroy it in the present, you can still fight it two more times in the past.  i would know because im doing it again right now. hence why i thought of this topic.

Ah. Interesting. I always seem to remember it disappearing entirely - perhaps I've always fought the Omen in 12000 BC, then.