Name plot holes for Chrono games.

[ZeaLitY]

I am tired of hearing how Chrono Cross has plot holes, or how Chrono Trigger utterly makes no sense at all, or how such and such is wrong, and all the other spam that comes from threads abroad. I'm going to be making a version of this post at other forums. Essentially, I am calling everyone out to try and name a plot hole in the Chrono series that the Compendium doesn't already recognize. Since we don't recognize any for Chrono Cross, it will be especially interesting to see someone try to levy a plot hole there. Here are the rules.

A plot hole is a direct inconsistency between established facts in a story's internal logic. It is not merely something unexplained, but a true contradiction within a plot. With this in mind, flag the following as plot holes as a self test:

A. Goku spends over a year training at Kai's and walking across Snake Way, yet is revived by the Dragon Balls -- which can only revive someone up to a year after his or her death.
B. Twenty years after Chrono Trigger, the Kingdom of Guardia has been overthrown and Crono is missing.
C. The protagonists of Pulp Fiction go to great lengths to protect a briefcase whose contents are never revealed.
D. Lucca states that Marle disappeared at Guardia Castle due to the grandfather paradox when other events clearly establish that the paradox does not apply to the series.

If you guessed A and D, you are correct. B and C are not plot holes; they are merely unexplained portions of the plot left up to interpretation or fan deduction. Stories cannot contain thousands of volumes of backstory to satisfy every need. They have a focus; Chrono Trigger's was on planet-affected eras (not on the formation of Zeal or the history of Nus), and Chrono Cross's was on foiling the Time Devourer (not on the history of Zenan politics). With this in mind, I challenge you to bring forth an inconsistency in the plot of either Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross. The Chrono Compendium does not aim to dismiss every plot hole proposed. However, the Chrono Compendium has featured three years of discussion and deliberation on the plots of these games and believes to have documented every plot hole in the series. They are listed at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Plot_Inconsistencies . If you find a flaw in the logic or something we've missed, we are more than happy to add to the list.

Before you begin proposing, remembr that due to the special nature of games, some things are not plot holes. They include:

1. External real world influences. Just because Pierre has a French accent and Viper refers to a God does not mean that the Chrono Trigger Testament is suddenly true and that the Chrono series world is flawed for not having France.
2. Game mechanics. Chronopolis has no reason to install a savepoint on Terra Tower (storywise, a Record of Fate), but since the player needs to save, one exists.
3. Script errors. Chrono Trigger's translation was marred in some places, and Chrono Cross lists the journey to the Isle of the Damned as happening in both 1016 A.D. and 1017 A.D. With the retranslation WIP and deduction, these can rectified. For instance, Schala and Janus suddenly being step-siblings is not a plot hole, as the Japanese version made no mention of adoption.
4. Ultimania. Ultimania gets some things wrong. For instance, it lists Kid as coming to the modern era The only part that can really be trusted is the interview with Masato Kato, since it's straight from the Chrono writer's mouth. Don't take everything at face value.

Now, have at it. You may find http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Articles to be of value. Check the principles of time article if you're curious about problems there; it's by far the largest and most comprehensive analysis of the game's internal logic. No, I ZeaLitY am not the sole controller of what gets considered a plot hole. But if any sound and serious proposals are made, they'll be posted at the Compendium forums for consideration.

[V_Translanka]

I wouldn't even consider D a "plot-hole" really...I mean, how much temporal mechanics knowledge could Lucca have had at that point? So she made a little mistake...that's nothing to go jumping plot-holes over or anything...

[grey_the_angel]

Lucca with ulta advance techonlogy

Also: grobyc. they use revolvers and dragoon mounts.. He's a frigging cyborg.

[ZeaLitY]

Lucca with ulta advance techonlogy

Also: grobyc. they use revolvers and dragoon mounts.. He's a frigging cyborg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

[Chrono'99]

Don't forget the hole in Hermit's Hideaway, that's certainly a hole in the plot

[Wes Janson]

Id like to contest the guardia line 'plothole' , and instead bring up another plothole...

Marlie disappered because her apperance cause the search for her ancestor to end: Fact (proven by dialouge)

Noone ever knew Marlie was NOT the queen until AFTER the real queen is rescued: Fact (known thru playing the game)

You rescue the queen and preserve the line: Fact (unless you loose at the game, which doesnt count)



Now, using the same logic.... (with Aalya as example...)




Aalya doesnt die: Fact (known because she lives thru the game, as a party member on occasion)

Aalya eventualy DOES go back to her Era (as seen by the ending where she gives kino the ring... was it the 1 ring I wonder....... )


Now, based on those 2 facts I can disprove the guardia line paradox in one sentance.

It doesnt matter if you leave your timeline, as long as you return.

Thats right, as long as Aalya makes it back alive and gets knocked up the line is preserved.

Where as Marlie disturbs her past by being mistook for her ancestor, causing her to cease to exist. (Tho that brings up the paradox of how Chrono and Lucca remember her..... and why their lives didnt reset without Marlies existence, as they should have gone back to right before Chrono runs into Marlie...... )

[Chrono'99]

I'll play the devil's advocate and try to find some potential plot-holes. Not that I really believe those are plot-holes, but I'll present them just so we can better debunk them... if we can.


FATE's unawareness of the dimension split:
The normal dimension was split into Another World and Home World in 1,010 A.D., yet the Chronopolis scientists speak as if Home World ("World 01") existed well before that year (check the script for the context maybe, since the quote is much longer):

   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

How was FATE ever able to "intervene with World 01" when World 01 didn't even exist until the incident?


Miguel's existence in the Dead Sea:
In 1,010 A.D., the dimension split occurs and the Dead Sea replaces the Sea of Eden in Home World. However, Miguel was in this Sea at that time. Shouldn't he have disappeared in the Darkness Beyond Time along with Home Chronopolis?


Serge's meeting with Lynx in the Orphanage:
When Serge time traveled to Lucca's Orphanage in the past, he met Lynx and Harle. When he saw him, Lynx simply teleported out without telling him anything... Why did he do that? Lynx's original mission was to kill Serge to preserve the future. He thought he had already drowned him, but here he discovered that it was not the case. I understand that he didn't express surprise (since he's almost an A.I.), but why didn't he try a second time to kill Serge?

[ZeaLitY]

I. The Chronopolis dialogue in general really makes me angry. Some of the ghosts are locked in "history mode", reciting the history of the world. Some are locked in "current situation mode", where they talk about the state of the dimensions and act as if they've always been there. And yet many are in "Keystone T-1 mode", where they still think the Counter-Time experiment hasn't happened! It's made me not take Chronopolis at face value, but even then...

Two solutions:

1. The dimensions extended backwards too, and a new timeline was "created" in which FATE had to monitor Home World too.
2. Since the dimensional history up to 1010 A.D. is parallel right down to the last fly on the wall, it doesn't matter and the scientist is just having difficulty talking about such a sensitive subject. Like how Marty McFly has problems with Doc Brown's fourth-dimensional talk (though really, none of the audience should)...
3. Someone screwed up the dialogue.

II. The easy solution is that Miguel in Home World died and the one from Another was sent. But Kato says the reverse happens. ...The continuity can still work if we were to simply give Kato a memo stating why he's wrong on this, so it doesn't compromise the internal logic.

III. My guess is...perhaps he thought he had captured Lucca, which would have solved the problem anyway. We don't see her, so maybe she had already died. In that case, perhaps Lynx knew that if Serge had come this far and had the Mastermune and time traveling abilities, FATE had already been destroyed. Harle seems to know something judging by her devilish smile. She particularly would know that Serge would have played right into her hands and unleashed Terra Tower, so this may be a viable explanation.

[grey_the_angel]

Lucca with ulta advance techonlogy

Also: grobyc. they use revolvers and dragoon mounts.. He's a frigging cyborg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

steam punk is a tad bit different from what grobyc. he's cyber punk at least.  steam punk is more low tech. A cyborg is more upper teir levels, especially the G.I.T.S. level shit he was pull (hair lazer anyone?)

[Rydis]

I havn't played chrono cross in a while so if I made a mistake thinking this up just to give you someting to do, sorry ^^.

If I recall correctly, in the dialogue of chrono cross, at one point FATE could not access the records of fate in home world and couldn't see what was happening in home world.  If this is true, then how did fate forsee Serge crossing dimensions, how was it able to see when Miguel lost, and able to intereact with the Sea of Eden to destroy it?

If the Flame was a shard of Lavos, so I highly doubt that a simple collaspe of the building in the sea could destroy the flame.  And since time cease to move, as one could see from being able to walk on the water, then it couldn't be lost anywhere but in the rubble of the building.  Could not the dragons of home world easily find the flame beneath that rubble.  I fail to see how this Frozen Flame becomes useless.

Also if FATE wanted serge dead why couldn't it just force him to stay like it did Miguel.  Being the arbiter only granted him access to the flame, and if FATE was able to hold Miguel it had the power to hold Serge.  It could of had Miguel kill Serge then or keep Lynx there to kill him instead of a goose chase that would be rather redudent.

[ZeaLitY]

If I recall correctly, in the dialogue of chrono cross, at one point FATE could not access the records of fate in home world and couldn't see what was happening in home world.  If this is true, then how did fate forsee Serge crossing dimensions, how was it able to see when Miguel lost, and able to intereact with the Sea of Eden to destroy it?

FATE could still know what was going on in Home world. The Records of FATE could still observe; they merely could not input information. As for the Sea of Eden's destruction, this is not explained, but it probably has something to do with the three islands (since it's destroyed by fire erupting from three sources).

[qoute]Also if FATE wanted serge dead why couldn't it just force him to stay like it did Miguel.  Being the arbiter only granted him access to the flame, and if FATE was able to hold Miguel it had the power to hold Serge.  It could of had Miguel kill Serge then or keep Lynx there to kill him instead of a goose chase that would be rather redudent.[/quote]

That's because FATE was totally deactivated during that episode. Wazuki and Serge left, but according to Masato Kato, something prompted Miguel to stay behind and check it out. And as soon as Chronopolis came back online, Miguel was imprisoned.

[Rydis]

FATE could still know what was going on in Home world. The Records of FATE could still observe; they merely could not input information. As for the Sea of Eden's destruction, this is not explained, but it probably has something to do with the three islands (since it's destroyed by fire erupting from three sources).

Still doesn't explain how FATE was able to destroy the Tower of Eden from across the dimension.

Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable
to intervene directly with World 01. The best FATE could do was cross the dimension and
receive data through the Records of Fate. And with much difficulty, FATE succeeded in
binding Miguel to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

So FATE to could cross the dimension...?  As you said something unexplained doesn't equal a plot hole.  But I have always thought of a plot hole also as:  Going aginst the intentional logic of the world in order to create the plot that wouldn't ordinarily exsist.  AKA killing serge right away instead of waiting  all them years.  But FATE and Chronopolis did cause the time crash and such so it isn't out of the question FATE to could cross the dimension I guess.

That's because FATE was totally deactivated during that episode. Wazuki and Serge left, but according to Masato Kato, something prompted Miguel to stay behind and check it out. And as soon as Chronopolis came back online, Miguel was imprisoned.

Little fuzzy here but I swore they said it was only down for a few minutes (hope im not wrong :/) ill look for it later.  But if thats the case, I dont see how they could enter Chronoplis, reach the flame, and exit within such a short time.  This to me would be an example of a plot happening that goes aginst normal logic just so the actual plot can continue.

[Rydis]

I think I should elaborate on what im trying to say.  What I may be getting at may not be plot holes, but I wouldn't know what else to call them.

Twenty years after Chrono Trigger, the Kingdom of Guardia has been overthrown and Crono is missing.

I can find this to be very circumstantial.  Depending on how much influence the event would have on the plot could signify how important it could be to reveal what happened.

Taking this example.  Before the interview telling us that Porre had a influence outside of the normal flow of time help, this whole event is shrouded in mystery.  From how the Masamune was stolen, to how Porre got the might it did, to where Chrono and Marle are.

Now the fall of Gaurdia has a major influence on the plot of Chrono Cross.  From the Dragoons under General Viper, the Masamune and its significance to the Dead Sea and everything that Porre does throughout the game.  Now without Gaurdia's fall alot of what happened in Chrono Cross could not of happened.  Guardia would still have its influence, The Dragoons wouldn't have the power they have, Chrono/Marle doubtly would of made deals with Lynx, and they would still have possession of the Masamune.

As I said before the interview everything is a mystery and every theory is based on nothing but being circumstantial.  Porre had guns?  Well Lucca used guns in Trigger is its just as possible he had better weapons made for Gaurdia, including robots and other things to help them.  Chrono and Marle had their magic, and Porre was just a weak army.  So without what was said in the interview it is inconcievable that Gaurdia coiuld of lose to Porre when and how it did.  So one could say the reason that the Fall of Gaurdia is not explained is because it can't be explained.  Its only reason for happening is to drive the plot of Chrono Cross to where it is at.  This is also easily made into what it is by saying its all a mystery. (I was very mad after beating Suikoden Tactics to see that the ending is *shrouded in mystery*.  All it shows me is either a lack of creativity or a way to open a new game).

Saying that, its possible the fall could be done in another game.  But truthfully I dont see how it would be any more significant in that game then it is in Chrono Cross.  Unless you play out the fall (meaning the end of the game would be the fall, so technically you lose, or play Porre and win) it will contradict anything and just about everything that happened in Cross.  If the game involved going back in time to the fall to fix something, again would cease to have what happened in Cross.  I think it is very important that the Fall of Gaurdia needed to be explained in Chrono Cross's plot.  So one is left with, its not explained because it can't be.  It happened so the game could have the plot that it has.  Now this doesn't contridict any facts within the game in dialogue or plot wise script.  Yet I would consider this a major plot hole.  So fans nagged at this as to why it wasn't explained and we wer eleft with that Porre had help from out the normal flow of time.  Ok, but that really doesn't help anything.  Unless this is to be part of a new game (which as I stated, I can't find how it could be possible without nulling the affects of Cross) then I see no reason why he could not elaborate any further on the subject if indeed their was a plot behind the Fall of Gaurdia. 

I had more on my mind during work but I kinda lost it as I drove my long drive home :/.  However I can give a few more examples:

Gundam Seed - SPOILERS
Mu Laflaga at the end of seed is most certainly obliterated.  All that was left of the Strike was its head and everything else was in peices or evaporated.   

Gundam Seed Destiny - SPOILERS
However Neo, the man who is in charge of the 3 who steal the gundams from Zaft (new masked guy) is Mu Laflaga.  He survived what is any way you look at it, an impossible feat.  If somehow he survived what no one else in the show could of when in a blown up gundam, he would of been floating near the Archangel and around the Enternal.  However there is never anything regarding his survival.  However without *any* explanation given, he has survived and is in fighting condition.  Now normally someone surviving a crash without incidiant is nothing.  But when they have such a influence on the plot of the story a little information is usually required.  There is essentially no way he could of survived what he did how he did.  This would be an example of a situation where something is left unexplained because it can't be for the sole purpose that it is needed for the plot to continue.  I dont know if you could call this a plot hole, but there is something significatly wrong with it.  I put it on par with the fall of gaurdia.

-SPOILERS END.

I had a few others but again, I will have to remeber ^^.

D. Lucca states that Marle disappeared at Guardia Castle due to the grandfather paradox when other events clearly establish that the paradox does not apply to the series.

Again its been a long while since ive played so if I missed something what been discussed a few times, sorry for putting it here.  Gives us all something to do though.

I can't think of any other situation in which the grandfather paradox presented itself as it did during the first visit to the 600's.  However the grandfather paradox shares relations what happens in the past affects the future.  In this case, it is shown throughout the game.  When you plant the forest and when you charge the sunstone.  When your in the future doesn't matter because the future you change doesn't have an affect on the past.  THe destruction of Zeal happened when you were there and when you weren't and Magus survived in both.  WHile Chrono did change what happened, bringing about the destruction was what was already going to happen.  And when your in the prehistoric time (I dont have the dates memorized) you are not put into a position in which Ayala is going die.  However since Kino is one would think it should come into affect.  However, the events that lead to the Reptites destruction and Kino was already gone when you got there shows that at some point Kino was rescued without Chrono's help when it happened when he wasn't there to begin with.

[DBoruta]

Still doesn't explain how FATE was able to destroy the Tower of Eden from across the dimension.

Quote
Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable
to intervene directly with World 01. The best FATE could do was cross the dimension and
receive data through the Records of Fate. And with much difficulty, FATE succeeded in
binding Miguel to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

So FATE to could cross the dimension...?  As you said something unexplained doesn't equal a plot hole.  But I have always thought of a plot hole also as:  Going aginst the intentional logic of the world in order to create the plot that wouldn't ordinarily exsist.  AKA killing serge right away instead of waiting  all them years.  But FATE and Chronopolis did cause the time crash and such so it isn't out of the question FATE to could cross the dimension I guess.

Sorry, but this isn't a plot hole.  The Frozen Flame in World 01 (Home World) was very close to awakening, and because of this, FATE had to act accordingly and stop the Flame from falling into the hands of its enemies at all costs.  If you look back at the video clip of the Dead Sea first exploding and then imploding, you see that it starts with three bursts of flame from the three islands where the "Fates" reside in Sea of Eden in World 02.  Also, it is in these three places that you end up finding temporal disortions to the Sea of Eden in what was once the Dead Sea.  What we can gather from this is that it was through these three places that FATE was able to cross dimensions (most likely using every bit of power possible) and cause the destruction of the Dead Sea.  While the game does say that FATE was merely able to gather information from but not manipulate the records of FATE, we see that in an act of desperation FATE is capable of temporarily crossing dimensions (most likely using all the technology available to Chronopolis) and being active, even if it is just for a short time.   

[Rydis]

Still doesn't explain how FATE was able to destroy the Tower of Eden from across the dimension.

Quote
Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable
to intervene directly with World 01. The best FATE could do was cross the dimension and
receive data through the Records of Fate. And with much difficulty, FATE succeeded in
binding Miguel to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

So FATE to could cross the dimension...?  As you said something unexplained doesn't equal a plot hole.  But I have always thought of a plot hole also as:  Going aginst the intentional logic of the world in order to create the plot that wouldn't ordinarily exsist.  AKA killing serge right away instead of waiting  all them years.  But FATE and Chronopolis did cause the time crash and such so it isn't out of the question FATE to could cross the dimension I guess.

Sorry, but this isn't a plot hole.  The Frozen Flame in World 01 (Home World) was very close to awakening, and because of this, FATE had to act accordingly and stop the Flame from falling into the hands of its enemies at all costs.  If you look back at the video clip of the Dead Sea first exploding and then imploding, you see that it starts with three bursts of flame from the three islands where the "Fates" reside in Sea of Eden in World 02.  Also, it is in these three places that you end up finding temporal disortions to the Sea of Eden in what was once the Dead Sea.  What we can gather from this is that it was through these three places that FATE was able to cross dimensions (most likely using every bit of power possible) and cause the destruction of the Dead Sea.  While the game does say that FATE was merely able to gather information from but not manipulate the records of FATE, we see that in an act of desperation FATE is capable of temporarily crossing dimensions (most likely using all the technology available to Chronopolis) and being active, even if it is just for a short time.   

Yes, the point of that post was to show where I made my mistake ^^.