Author Topic: Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]  (Read 3076 times)

Leebot

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« on: June 21, 2004, 07:50:36 pm »
This is where I'll be working on my article, "Beyond Time" which covers places outside the normal boundaries of time, and how temporal mechanics apply to them. So far, it's just an outline; I'll be working on it from here. Note that I'll be making edits to this post without specifically marking "Edit."

UPDATE: I've decided that since this article is so big (or will be), I'll split it up between threads to better organize any commentary.

A. Introduction

Note: Certain quotes have been edited for spelling and grammar and truncated from their original versions. This is done to facilitate the reading of this article, and it is not my intention to misrepresent the quotees in any way.

B. Mechanics
--I. Standard Time (ST)
--II. Time-Error (TE)
--III. Mixed (M)

C. Locations
--I. The End of Time
----1. Mechanics - TE
----2. Nature - Spacetime point of least resistance; connects to all time portals. Probably QC-like.
----3. Residents
------a. Gaspar - Guru of Zeal; sent here after Lavos encounter. Holds Time Egg (Chrono Trigger). [Name Gaspar derived from one of three wise men in Christian Bible]
------b. Spekkio - Calls self God of War; teaches magic. Strength proportional to that of opponents. Possibly Nu, natural phenomenon, or embodiment of magic. [Name Spekkio derived from Latin "Specchio" for "Mirror"]
--II. Lavos' Pocket Dimension
----1. Mechanics - TE
----2. Nature - Area of space outside the timeline created by Lavos, allowing him access to all time periods.
----3. Residents
------a. Lavos
--III. The Black Omen
----1. Mechanics - M (Certain creatures and the structure progress through time normally, other creatures progress through Time-Error instead)
----2. Nature - Formerly the Ocean Palace, empowered by contact with Lavos via the Mammon Machine. Contact with Lavos has caused miscellaneous temporal disruptions.
----3. Residents
------a. Queen Zeal - Queen of the Kingdom of Zeal who used the Mammon Machine to try to drain Lavos' energy, resulting in Zeal's destruction.
------b. The Mammon Machine - Machine created by Queen Zeal to drain Lavos' energy.
------c. Nu - Two Nu mysteriously exist here. They were possibly in the Ocean Palace when it rose.
--IV. The Temporal Vortex
----1. Mechanics - ST
----2. Nature - Appears to be two-dimensional, either an impressionist painting or a drawing of M.C. Escher. Referred to as "The place where lost souls wander." Probably QC-like. Possibly the gap between Home and Another.
----3. Residents
------a. Sprigg - Mysterious woman capable of morphing into monsters.
--V. The Bend of Time
----1. Mechanics - ST
----2. Nature - Architecture and design similar to EoT, minus Spekkio's room; contains gates allowing battle with various monsters; possibly decommissioned EoT or dimensional equivalent of EoT. Possibly QC-like.
----3. Residents
------a. Octopus - Next to nothing known; mentions "God of War"
------b. Ozzie, Slash, and Flea - Famous villains from CT; possibly arrived after events in 600 AD. in CT due to some teleporting error; possibly replicas (created by Octopus?)
--VI. The Dead Sea
----1. Mechanics - ST
----2. Nature
----3. Residents
------a. Miguel
------b. Ghosts of Crono, Marle, and Lucca
--VII. The Darkness Beyond Time
----1. Mechanics - TE
----2. Nature - Repository for discarded time strands.
----3. Residents
------a. Time Devourer/Schala - Evolved being created by merger of Schala and Lavos; intends to devour all timestreams.

Please respond if you notice any obvious flaws or ommissions. For arguments on theories, respond to the applicable post in the Analysis thread.

Leebot

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Appendix
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 09:43:20 pm »
Expanded explanations:

Time-Error

-Time-Error is essentially a secondary time axis, perpendicular to the normal time axis.

-Only time portals and locations outside the axis of time (such as the End of Time, the inside of the Black Omen, or the Darkness Beyond Time) exhibit a flow of Time-Error.

-Time portals within the standard time axis flow through time and Time-Error at equal rates.

Example: A time portal is created at time X and Time-Error 0. At time X+T, the Time-Error of the Portal is T.

-The perception of time in locations outside the time axis is actually a flow of Time-Error.

Example: A traveler enters the End of Time at Time-Error T. He spends a length of time* U at the End of Time. He exits at Time-Error T+U.

-When a traveler enters a time portal, the Time-Error of the location at which they exit is the same as the Time-Error at which they enter, and the time at which they exit is determined by the Time-Error.

Example: Two time portals exist, one at time X at Time-Error 0, one at time Y at Time-Error 0. A traveler enters the latter portal at time Y+T. Since the Time-Error of this portal is T at time Y+T, the traveler arrives at Time-Error T of the former portal. Since this Time-Error corresponds to time X+T, the traveler arrives at time X+T.

-When a traveler travels to a time portal from a point outside the axis of time, they arrive at the same Time-Error as the Time-Error from which they left, and the corresponding time.

-When a time-traveling device (such as Epoch) is used to travel through time from within the time axis, the Time-Error of one of the portals existing at the exit point is recorded. The exit location can only be a time when a portal exists. The recorded Time-Error is used to determine the exact time of arrival.

Example: Two time portals exist, one at time X at Time-Error 0, one at time Y at Time-Error 0. A time-traveling device is used to travel to the former portal's time at time Y+T. The Time-Error of T is recorded from the latter portal. The time-traveling device arrives at time X+T.

-When a time-traveling device is used to travel through time from a point outside the time axis, it can only reach a time when some portal exists. The exact time it arrives is determined by the Time-Error at which it left.

*When using any relative time term as it relates to time-error, I will follow it with an asterisk (*).

QC-like

Refers to the Q Continuum of Star Trek. When lesser beings visit it, they are unable to comprehend its true nature, so they see it as a metaphor using something with which they're familiar (such as a way-station on an abandoned highway or a battle site of the American Civil War). The End of Time and The Bend of Time may work like this, too. The rooms and ornaments travelers see probably don't actually exist there, but are created by the travelers' minds as a metaphor for their convenience.

Lavos' Pocket Dimension (Not sure who originally wrote this, provided by GrayLensman)

Lavos displays some strange behavior. If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated. A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle. Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras. Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD. A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time.

When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time. A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period.

An observation made by chronotriggerfreak is that the wormhole connecting the pocket dimension to space-time would be governed by the same axiom governing Gates, namely: "Determining the Destination of Time Travel via Epoch and Time Gates". Because of this, the rate of time must be the same in the pocket dimension as the outside world.

Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time. Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period. For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period.

Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well. Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.

Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth. The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance. The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence.

If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos. During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension. During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension.

Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole. The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed. Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style.

After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.

As before, the only problem with the Pocket Dimension is that Lavos shell is always intact during the Ocean Palace disaster.

YbrikMetaknight

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2004, 11:36:00 pm »
Sorry I haven't posted anything on this before now.  I recently became quite busy.

Here's the entirety of my previous article.  Maybe we can figure out a way to combine the two effectively.  I'll have some time during the week of July 5 to devote to this issue.

Oh, and if you want the OCR thread from which all the commentary came, I'll be glad to get a copy of the txt'd archive to you.

Time Crash & End of Time

The Conservation of Time Theorem states that anytime more than three people attempt to travel through time in a single party, they end up at the space-time coordinates of least resistance, the End of Time.  However, when the Chronopolis Military Research Institute traveled 10,000 years into the past during the Time Crash, its inhabitants (indeed, the institute itself) did not end up at the End of Time, but rather ended up in the Sea of El Nido.  However, the game does not tell us why.  I posed this issue at OCR and many more questions popped up:  What exactly happened to the staff of Chronopolis after they arrived in El Nido, and what are the events you witness there?  What happened to the End of Time, and is the Bend of Time connected to it in any way?  And where did Gaspar go, if the Bend of Time and the End of Time are one and the same?  And finally, how did Ozzie, Slash and Flea (whose gender shall probably always be in question) end up in the Bend of Time?

One theory on the nature of the staff of Chronopolis is that the entire staff of the Institute is dead—or rather undead.  That is, they’re all ghosts.  However, as the “ghosts” we see perform actions in the physical world, this is unlikely.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Since Chronopolis had to have implemented its dimension monitoring technology after the split, its ghosts must either still have the capacity to work, or FATE is able to manipulate the physical world. I do believe the residents were alive at one time, in order to dispense El Nido's ancestor pioneers; perhaps after the first generation that came with the Time Crash, each human, after dying, simply because a shadow that we see now.


Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
This is certainly a valid possibility. The game does state that the workers of Chronopolis eventually became the first humans to colonize El Nido. However, there is still the possibility that while some went on to colonize the archipelago, others may have stayed to continue their work. In any case, the temporal energies from the crash probably enabled them to become ghosts after they died, rather than simply fade out of existence, or something like that.


Quote from: RabidTurtle
After looking through the posts, I thought of an interesting theory. Maybe they're ghosts, but not in the spiritual sense. After the Time Crash, maybe the staff of Chronopolis repeats it's actions, just prior to the accident, forced to re-live the Crash, in a plane beyond the normal time stream, infinitely (insert chills here). After all, they repeated the incident before the crash to Serge, that's apparent from all of their dialogue, and the head director with his foreboding about the experiment at the docks. And the Crash may only occur within the confines of the Sea of Eden, leaving the outside world unaffected.


Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
I seem to remember one of the ghosts saying something about purposefully recreating the events of the Time Crash, perhaps to reverse the process. I could be wrong, but I played through that part only about two weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure about this one. Now, this could very well be a careless plothole, but if it's not just a mistake then it sort of botches the theory about everyone being forced to relive the crash (a la Groundhog's Day or Majora's Mask) by some other power, quite possibly FATE. Also, it is known that some of the original staff left to colonize El Nido. Furthermore, the staff observes the two dimensions in present times, which would not be possible if your theory is to hold true.

Now, if the staff left and was not forced by FATE to relive the Time Crash over and over again, what about the ghosts? Another possible theory is that the events of the crash or of an attempt to recreate the crash so as to reverse its effects were recorded by FATE and replayed for Serge after being triggered by Serge's entrance, or Lynx/Dark Serge's entrance. However, this also does not fit with the observation of the two dimensions.

I think that the most likely explanation is that some of the staff stayed on Chronopolis while the rest colonized El Nido. The staff that stayed, instead of dying, simply phased out of physical existance, and became the "ghosts" that we see, possibly due to the temporal disruption.


Quote from: ZeaLitY
I'll go with this. If you count the ghosts, notice that there are enough to sufficiently man each machine; no extras are shown. FATE may have also opted for a skeleton crew to increase the El Nido population more quickly; notice that the desk before the entry to the main part of Chronopolis lacks a secretary.


The most viable theory for why the Time Crash didn’t send the staff to the End of Time seems to be that Lavos's (or perhaps the Entity's) gates differ from the Time Crash's mechanics.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
I'm going with the nature of the Time Crash being different from that of Lavos' gates; can the Time Crash be considered such a passageway? It seems more of a reset of the timeline than an instance of travel.


Gaspar and the End of Time are two mysteries that are too closely connected to be dealt with separately.  The End of Time does not make a direct appearance in Chrono Cross, but the Bend of Time appears as a very small, mostly insignificant area where you fight monsters at your leisure.  The Bend of Time is very similar in appearance to the End of Time, but Gaspar and Spekkio, who lived for who knows how long (for them, that is) in the End of Time, are nowhere to be seen.

Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
OK, this is gonna be pretty out there, so just bear with me. Perhaps the End of Time went to the El Nido Archipelago where it became the Bend of Time. The reason it would go there is to follow the massive temporal energies of Chronopolis after the Time Crash.


Quote from: Ingonyama
As for Gaspar, I think he left with the others to live out a life in another time period. Maybe he joined Belthasar in the revamped future? Or became a royal advisor to King Guardia XXI in 600 AD? I doubt he went as far back as 65,000,000 BC, but it's possible. Most likely, though, I bet he went back to the Last Village to help them rebuild civilization after the fall of Zeal.


Quote from: RabidTurtle
Or he's still in the End of Time, and the Bend of Time are two separate areas. The Bend of Time may just be a temporal distortion created by the split in dimensions.


Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
I still believe that the End of Time and the Bend of Time are one and the same, or at least closely connected. They're too similar to not be. I, for one, support the idea that Gaspar went out into the world, or possibly retains the ability to travel through the eras even though the gates are inaccessible, while the End of Time was pulled by the Time Crash to El Nido, where monsters seemed to come towards it (and how exactly did Ozzie, Slash and Flea end up there anyway?).


Quote from: ZeaLitY
Gaspar probably envisioned the End of Time as being able to take on a separate function, and installed a simple keeper (the punching bag monster in the Bend of Time).


A possible theory for what happened to Spekkio is that he may have gone with Gaspar wherever he went. This would fit with the idea that each Guru had a Nu to assist him.  However, a brief cameo in Chrono Cross could refute this idea.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
It seems to be that way, although Melchior's lack of an assistant makes me wonder. Nus are unbelievably secretive, but I think it's safe to go along with this theory. Spekkio is quoted as the "God of War," however, in Chrono Cross.

The Bend of Time resembles End of time, and if one brings Janice to the Bend of Time, the game pops up with "The God of War has taken an interest in you." I believe Spekkio said himself he was the God of War in CT, so...nice cameo.


The only thing of any consequence in the Bend of Time is a locked door at the back.  This door, which only opens in a New Game+, leads to a battle with Ozzie, Slash and Flea from Chrono Trigger.  Their presence here is yet another mystery.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
As for the Ozzie Crew, all I can think of is that they were homeless after 600 A.D., and perhaps discovered a gate. Ozzie might have a few time tricks up his sleeve


Quote from: Ingonyama
Well...we don't know what happened to Ozzie and crew after CT. Last we saw was him falling down that big hole after the cat jumped onto the switch. Maybe that hole was a time portal of some kind? And when you fight him, Flea, and Slash, they run away from you, usually before you can beat them. Though it seems unlikely that time travel is among their powers, it's conceivable that a resonance with Lavos interfered with it to throw them off course. After all, that's fairly late in the game, when things are coming to a head, and in 600 AD, the last major event that happened was Lavos creating a Gate to 12,000 BC after being summoned by Janus. I'd think after an event like that, teleportation magic of any kind would be thrown seriously off-kilter.


To sum up, here are the conclusions our discussion reached:

The most likely theory is that the Chronopolis Military Research Institute didn't end up at the End of Time because the mechanics of the Time Crash worked very differently from those of the gates. After the Crash, the Chronopolis staff may or may not have spent some time trying to reverse its effects and end up back in A.D. 2400, but after failing to do that (or even simply not trying in the first place), most of them went out and colonized the El Nido archipelago while the FATE supercomputer kept a skeleton crew on staff to observe time-space phenomena (such as the dual dimensions) and run the Chronopolis facilities. That skeleton crew did not die but instead phased out of this physical plane of existence, perhaps due to the massive temporal energies from the Crash, and became the “ghosts” we see there now.

 The Bend of Time (which CAN be accessed from both dimensions) is probably the End of Time, which was either drawn to El Nido thanks to the Time Crash's temporal energies or had a gate directly to it established there for the same reason. Then, monsters from all over the archipelago began to flock to it, possibly because Ozzie & Co. were calling them, or something.

Gaspar: Probably went out into the world in some era, and probably took his Nu aide, Spekkio, with him.

Ozzie & Co.: After being defeated again by Crono's party, they were on the run, and either a) stumbled upon a new gate to the End of Time (or Bend of Time) or b) tried to teleport somewhere and after Magus's summoning Lavos and the events that followed directly thereafter, that teleport magic went all whacky and they ended up there. I prefer the second option, myself.

YbrikMetaknight

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2004, 06:02:39 pm »
This week, I should have the perfect opportunity to work on the section of the Real World Influences article that I've already devoted myself to, the comparison between the events of Chrono Trigger and the events in our own history.  After that, I want to work some on this article, because I believe it has great potential.  So if you're still around, Leebot, just know that I haven't forgotten about this, and hope to tackle it very soon.

Leebot

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2004, 08:13:27 pm »
EDIT: This section has been revamped and given its own thread.

Leebot

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2004, 10:24:34 pm »
Author's note: On to the Bend of Time. I'll be using this format for the bulk of the sections of this article, so I would appreciate any feedback in this area from those who are more experienced at writing articles. Note that although I try to be objective, a certain amount of bias is unavoidable (This is notable in that some of the points lack supporting quotes--these are some of my own theories.). Before the final draft, I hope that this can be remedied to an extent by having others revise this.  

V: The Bend of Time

Mechanics: Standard Time (Although the Bend of Time doesn't exist in any dimension, its timeline runs parallel to those of Home and Another.)

Nature: The Bend of Time has similar architecture to the End of Time with ten pillars of light that allow the party to battle monsters from areas they've previously explored, a single streetlight with an octopus-like creature sitting at its base, and a door which opens in a New Game+ to allow battle with Ozzie, Slash, and Flea. The Bend of Time can be accessed from a small island chain in both Home and Another.

Analysis: There are two main theories regarding the nature of the Bend of Time.

1. The Bend of Time is the decommissioned version of the End of Time.

Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
OK, this is gonna be pretty out there, so just bear with me. Perhaps the End of Time went to the El Nido Archipelago where it became the Bend of Time. The reason it would go there is to follow the massive temporal energies of Chronopolis after the Time Crash.

Quote from: Ingonyama
As for Gaspar, I think he left with the others to live out a life in another time period. Maybe he joined Belthasar in the revamped future? Or became a royal advisor to King Guardia XXI in 600 AD? I doubt he went as far back as 65,000,000 BC, but it's possible. Most likely, though, I bet he went back to the Last Village to help them rebuild civilization after the fall of Zeal.

Quote from: RabidTurtle
Or he's still in the End of Time, and the Bend of Time are two separate areas. The Bend of Time may just be a temporal distortion created by the split in dimensions.

Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
I still believe that the End of Time and the Bend of Time are one and the same, or at least closely connected. They're too similar to not be. I, for one, support the idea that Gaspar went out into the world, or possibly retains the ability to travel through the eras even though the gates are inaccessible, while the End of Time was pulled by the Time Crash to El Nido, where monsters seemed to come towards it (and how exactly did Ozzie, Slash and Flea end up there anyway?).

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Gaspar probably envisioned the End of Time as being able to take on a separate function, and installed a simple keeper (the punching bag monster in the Bend of Time).


See minor theory 2.

2. The Bend of Time is the dimensional equivalent of the End of Time.

Quote from: Leebot
I personally would explain it as the dimensional equivalent of The End of Time. Where TEoT is the point of least resistance on the timeline, TBoT is the point of least resistance between different dimensions. It has certain parallels to TEoT: You can access it from either dimension (although you can't travel to the other), it has portals to different places (rather than different times), not to mention the similar architecture.

The portals might be connected to the memories of the travelers, allowing them to relive (in a sense) past conflicts. Ozzie, Slash, and Flea, on the other hand, wouldn't have a portal as they hadn't previously been encountered. "Why them?" is extremely hard to answer in game terms. Possibly the octopus (or Gaspar, or whoever) has some manner of control there and brought them there on a whim.

Quote from: ZealitY
I have a small note on the Bend of Time under theory 2; since the End of Time is the weakest coordinate on the timeline, would the Bend of Time be the weakest coordinate dimensionally for each world or interdimensionally? The former demands that space, like time, has a point of least resistance, or something to that effect, while the second, which I believe is more plausible, holds that among the strong differences and connections between the two dimensions (which stemmed directly from one another; see http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=195 ) , the Bend of Time exists as a coordinate of connection between the two. I would say weakest, but this is self-contradicting; how could the weakest point of connection between the two also exist and be accessible from both?

Quote from: Leebot
It works as the weakest point if you look at it this way: "between" the two dimensions is some type of force pressing everyone away from the other dimension and keeping them in their own. If the Bend of Time is the weakest point of this force, it's plausible that people could enter the gap here. The Angelus Errare point, to extend this metaphor, could be like quantum tunneling accross the barrier. Back to the Bend of Time: The reason people return to the same dimension they left could be explained by an extension of the "Missing Piece Theorem"; they left a hole in the dimension they left, so they have to first go there to fill it.

Quote from: Leebot
A supplement to my theory of the Bend of Time being the point of least resistance:

The party can only access the Bend of Time after the following events:

1) Serge takes on Lynx's body.
2) Serge (as Lynx) is sent to Sprigg's dimension.
3) Lynx, Sprigg, and Harle cross from Sprigg's dimension to Home.

It's possible that the Bend of Time appeared in Home due to a violation of a "Conservation of Dimensions" theorem. Lynx's party crossing to Home was the first instance of dimensional crossing that didn't involve a "Missing Piece" (unless Sprigg or Harle qualifies) so this may have caused the availability of the Bend of Time. On the other hand, it could have been Harle or Sprigg that caused this. Harle, as a dragon, may not have been intended to use this type of portal. Sprigg may not even be native to our dimension, or even compatible with it. Whichever the case, this dimensional cross may have violated the "Conservation of Dimensions" theorem. Then, when they finally went to Another, they violated it again, and the Bend of Time became available there.


There are also a couple of other theories regarding the Bend of Time which aren't inconsistent with either of the major theories.

1. The Bend of Time is another connection point between the timelines.

Quote from: ZealitY
I have a small note on the Bend of Time under theory 2; since the End of Time is the weakest coordinate on the timeline, would the Bend of Time be the weakest coordinate dimensionally for each world or interdimensionally? The former demands that space, like time, has a point of least resistance, or something to that effect, while the second, which I believe is more plausible, holds that among the strong differences and connections between the two dimensions (which stemmed directly from one another; see http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=195 ) , the Bend of Time exists as a coordinate of connection between the two. I would say weakest, but this is self-contradicting; how could the weakest point of connection between the two also exist and be accessible from both?


2. The Bend of Time is QC-like.

Quote from: Leebot
From a quasi-philosophical standpoint, one can look at them as more of "states of existence" than physical places. As such, only the spirit would truly exist there. The body, air, and structure are all created to provide a metaphorical structure to this space to provide travelers an image they could comprehend (like how the Q Continuum is shown in Star Trek: Voyager).

Quote from: Epsilon
The problem with that is (going by the idea that the minds of characters "create" the EoT/BoT using things they're familiar with..) is that there is no other area in CT that looks like the EoT (I havent replayed CC inawhile, so I'm not sure abot that...), so how could it be made out of things they are familiar with?

Quote from: Leebot
If we accept my theory as true, we can take it a bit further. We don't know that all characters see the same thing, or even that we see the same thing as the characters. If not, the End of Time would be a representation that is supposed to evoke a certain image for the players (I get the impression of a 50's (or so) metropolis at night, evoking a sense of loneliness and isolation).

If all who are there see the same thing, then it's likely that Gaspar created that image. It's possible he saw something like that peering through a time-portal, or heard it described from some other traveler.

The only other place in either game that resembles the End of Time is (not surprisingly), the Bend of Time from CC.


Residents:

Octopus - An octopus exists mysteriously in the Bend of Time. When approached by Janice, it mentions the "God of War."

Analysis: The "God of War" comment is potentially important given Spekkio referring to himself as the "God of War" and the similar appearance of the End of Time.

The Octopus may function as a guardian or custodian of the Bend of Time.

Quote from: Zeality
Gaspar probably envisioned the End of Time as being able to take on a separate function, and installed a simple keeper (the punching bag monster in the Bend of Time).


Alternatively, it may simply be a creature who got lost and wandered into the Bend of Time.

Ozzie, Slash, and Flea - Recurring villains from Chrono Trigger. They were encountered in Magus' Castle and later in Ozzie's Fort.

Analysis: How they arrived at the Bend of Time is unknown. Theories include:

1. They were teleported there after the battle in Ozzie's fort.

Quote from: ZealitY
As for the Ozzie Crew, all I can think of is that they were homeless after 600 A.D., and perhaps discovered a gate. Ozzie might have a few time tricks up his sleeve

Quote from: Ingonyama
Well...we don't know what happened to Ozzie and crew after CT. Last we saw was him falling down that big hole after the cat jumped onto the switch. Maybe that hole was a time portal of some kind? And when you fight him, Flea, and Slash, they run away from you, usually before you can beat them. Though it seems unlikely that time travel is among their powers, it's conceivable that a resonance with Lavos interfered with it to throw them off course. After all, that's fairly late in the game, when things are coming to a head, and in 600 AD, the last major event that happened was Lavos creating a Gate to 12,000 BC after being summoned by Janus. I'd think after an event like that, teleportation magic of any kind would be thrown seriously off-kilter.


2. Gaspar or the Octopus brought them there.

Quote from: Leebot
The portals might be connected to the memories of the travelers, allowing them to relive (in a sense) past conflicts. Ozzie, Slash, and Flea, on the other hand, wouldn't have a portal as they hadn't previously been encountered. "Why them?" is extremely hard to answer in game terms. Possibly the octopus (or Gaspar, or whoever) has some manner of control there and brought them there on a whim.


3. They don't actually exist there. Their appearance is an extension of the QC-like theory.

ZeaLitY

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2004, 10:01:55 pm »
I have a small note on the Bend of Time under theory 2; since the End of Time is the weakest coordinate on the timeline, would the Bend of Time be the weakest coordinate dimensionally for each world or interdimensionally? The former demands that space, like time, has a point of least resistance, or something to that effect, while the second, which I believe is more plausible, holds that among the strong differences and connections between the two dimensions (which stemmed directly from one another; see http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=195 ) , the Bend of Time exists as a coordinate of connection between the two. I would say weakest, but this is self-contradicting; how could the weakest point of connection between the two also exist and be accessible from both?

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2004, 01:01:38 am »
It works as the weakest point if you look at it this way: "between" the two dimensions is some type of force pressing everyone away from the other dimension and keeping them in their own. If the Bend of Time is the weakest point of this force, it's plausible that people could enter the gap here. The Angelus Errare point, to extend this metaphor, could be like quantum tunneling accross the barrier. Back to the Bend of Time: The reason people return to the same dimension they left could be explained by an extension of the "Missing Piece Theorem"; they left a hole in the dimension they left, so they have to first go there to fill it.

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2004, 07:12:14 pm »
UPDATE: I've added in ZealitY's commentary and my reply regarding the Bend of Time. I've also decided I'll put future sections into new threads group any related commentary together.

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2004, 04:57:25 pm »
UPDATE: I've added a section for the Temporal Vortex.

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Beyond Time - Outline and the Bend of Time [FINISHED]
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2004, 06:06:51 pm »
UPDATE: I've added the Mammon Machine to the residents section of the Black Omen. I'm not sure if it can technically qualify as a resident, or if it should be in the Lavos section, but it seems to work best this way. I've also posted the first draft of the Black Omen section.