The Frozen Flame

[GrayLensman]

In Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame is stated to be a splinter of Lavos' shell which separated when Lavos crashed into the earth. Around 3 million BC, it was responsible for the evolution of human intelligence. It follows that the FF could be involved with the manipulation of all life on earth by Lavos, but that is never confirmed.

There are two possible scenarios:

1.) The fission of the Flame was an accident which may or may not have benefited Lavos.

If the Flame was not responsible for the majority of Lavos' genetic manipulations, there is no reason for it to need the Flame to advance human intelligence. We know that human intelligence resulted directly from contact with the Frozen Flame. If the Flame was not part of Lavos' plan, then the evolution of human intelligence was accidental and perhaps even opposed to Lavos' plan. This makes sense because the Zeal Kingdom--the direct result of human intelligence and supremacy--posed enough of a threat to Lavos that it had to be destroyed. If this is the case, the existence of the Flame may have been one of the factors which allowed Lavos to be defeated and the Time Devourer to be created, as opposed to all the other planets infested by Lavoids.

2.) Lavos deliberately created the Flame as part of its plan.

The Frozen Flame was the instrument by which Lavos manipulated the evolution of all life on earth, however the Dragonian/Chronopolean Researches only saw the need to document the evolution of humans. The Flame may have been an essential physical link between Lavos in the Pocket Dimension (which opens to the interior of the earth) and the biosphere of the planet. Evolution was manipulated through direct contact with the Frozen Flame, perhaps even through the release of biological agents.

or 1+2=3

FF was an accident and Lavos finally decided to use it in his scheme to avoid side effect -like Zeal accident happen anymore-

Both have interesting repercussions. The Frozen Flame is indeed a tool that grants access to Pocket Dimensions and control over other temporal phenomena, but from what I can see, Lavos has the ability to enter and exit Keystone PD-1 as he wishes. This would classify the Frozen Flame as a threat, as it would allow possible assailants into his Pocket Dimension, or give them temporal power. However, this would require that it is under the human's control, a debatable fact in itself -- for Lavos is the other side of the Flame's communication link. Also, in the way of threats, Cross suggests that, as mentioned above, it allows arbiters considerable power over time, while Dreamers suggest that coupling it with a Time Egg device would result in near total control over the flow of time.

We should weigh the benefits of it. The Frozen Flame evolved humans at a rate so accelerated and hasty that it resulted in flawed beings, as Chronopolis states -- contradictory creatures that are in a state of constant stress. Notwithstanding, the Frozen Flame also advanced the genetics exponentially in comparison to what the natural evolution seemed like, doing in 3,000,000 years what had not been done in a period of time nearly 22 times that. Not only does this speed Lavos's mission, it grants him access to DNA of creatures with, initially (and later when the Magic Innate is awakened in the party), the full capacity to rival him. This brings us to an important point on which the matter may hinge.

Lavos clearly operates on some kind of schedule; if I had to make a guess, I would say that Lavos overtakes a planet when its capacity to destroy him reach a certain extent. Zeal was mighty, and its magic superior, but it was fairly easy to destroy, and I believe this is why Lavos did not fully surface -- he could take out a simple civilization with little effort. However, I propose that Lavos erupted in 1999 A.D. because, unlike Zeal, which was easy to destroy and whose residents could be denied the innate magic trait as easily as it had came to them, the civilization of the future covered the earth and its science was on the verge of posing difficulty itself. No longer was it a nuisance that could be dispatched and localized; the threat was global, and, judging from the Keystone Timelines, an institution that researched and experimented in controlling time itself was just around the corner.

I may have gone off on a tangent; the evidence I've presented can work both ways. Lavos has seemingly infinite patience; he could easily wait for the apes of yesteryear to evolve on their own, or accelerate them in a faster pace. This grants Doulifee's option some merit; even if the Flame were accidental, it would nonetheless benefit Lavos to use it if my previous theory is correct -- that Lavos erupts only when technological threat is globalized and nearly on par with his own powers.

OK Zeality, I still hold that the Mammon Machine, when powered up to its maximum capacity by Schala, drained Lavos' energy at a dangerous rate and was a serious and immediate threat of injury or death. The technology (and massive population and industrial base) of 1999 AD may have posed a potential threat but Queen Zeal was actively carrying out a program which in the very least caused Lavos enough irritation to destroy the Kingdom. If Lavos were to compare the two eras, 12,000 poses are more direct threat (at least based on what we know). The Day of Lavos came as a surprise to the Dome Supervisor, so I don't think they were planning anything which would target Lavos, unlike the Zeal Kingdom. Since Lavos did nothing to prevent the use of the Mammon Machine, I don't know if it puts that much forethought into when it appears. Lavos "slumbers" beneath the earth.

That aside, does the Frozen Flame ever benefit Lavos? The Time Devourer in Chrono Cross cannot be considered because Lavos probably wasn't considering that eventuality when it landed in 65 million BC. Human intelligence was a major headache when Zeal rose to supremacy, and was the driving force behind every threat to Lavos: Queen Zeal in 12000 BC, Magus in 600 AD, Crono et al. The Mystics and Reptiles were never a threat to Lavos. The Robot created by humans were a mixed bag. Mother Brain's intentions were not clear at all.

In Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame give humans considerable power over time and Lavos. Even then the Flame doesn't appear to benefit the Time Devourer. In Fact, the Dragon God, an instrument of the TD, seems to be focused on getting the Frozen Flame out of the hands of the humans (FATE included).

Aside: Could the TD have absorbed the Dragon God in the Reptite dimension before the Time Crash, and send Dinopolis into Serge's dimension to combat Chronopolis? This appears to be a scenario where the TD was opposed to the living past version of Lavos, since that version of Lavos was responsible for Chronopolis being sent back in time.

The Arbiter of the Frozen Flame was the mediator between Lavos and the world. I don't quite understand what this means, but it sounds like it affects Lavos in some way. Lavos is arguably a control freak; its success as an organism of its type depends on the ability to manipulate an entire planet. Would Lavos create anything which gave its "produce" influence over it?

Ah, I see your point. Though I'll still hold that an effort to cleanse the world of a possible threat is globalized in 1999 A.D. and localized in 12,000 B.C., it is nonetheless true that it seems he was in no apparent danger in the future. I still wonder why he chooses 1999 A.D.; as a condition of the Pocket Dimension, could he erupt in any era he chooses?

I must question the aside note on a matter of physics. I am under the belief that the Time Devourer resides in the Darkness Beyond Time that is pertinent only to the Keystone, and later, Home and Another, dimensions. I've held that each dimension carries its own Darkness Beyond Time, and that the TD's destruction was localized to dimensions; I deduced this conclusion from considering that if infinite dimensions exist, there must exist some in which a Time Devourer matured. I'd thus think it impossible for the Time Devourer to make that manoeuvre. Of course, this can be checked with the question of how the planet did it, and I can only answer that with 'dimensional awareness and special powers of the entity.'

As for the last paragraph, that made me think about the nature of the Frozen Flame. Whereas someone who attempted to communicate with Lavos directly would be crushed, anyone can access the Frozen Flame with little fear of that, as it is disconnected from him. Thus, it is like an extension or organ of Lavos, cut off from his body spatially and vulnerable. This is certainly a disadvantage, and makes the Flame's creation seem like an accident.

AIM discussion concerning the Frozen Flame and related topics. Edited for spelling and grammar by GL.

Zeality: I replied to the Frozen Flame; I'm not sure if I made much headway, but I'm beginning to perceive it as a disadvantage.

GrayLensman: The scope of the Time Devourer's destruction is still a contentious issue. It depends on the definition of space-time continua. I'm inclined to believe the TD is a universal phenomenon, but I can see it both ways. However, is there as distinction between Home/Another and the Reptite dimension?

Zeality: I've believed that dimensions are tangible objects in the Chrono series, and not merely weak facets of existence. This would explain how Home could "physically" split from Another, and remain the same to Serge and his party. I considered the Reptite Dimension a 'possibility,' with the reasoning that Dinopolis was the most suitable opponent for the humans.

GrayLensman: The thing is, does the Entity oppose humanity? The Mystics (Demihumans?) and Reptites opposed humans because they were competing species, but did the humans ever harm the planet in a meaningful way?

GrayLensman: Zeal depleted the Sun Stone which may be been charged with the planet's energy. That's all I can think of.

Zeality: I believe eventually, the industries of the future would become efficient. Pollution is the only threat I see. Chronopolis was originally Lavos' plan to mess up the Entity's own plan to eliminate him via Crono.

Zeality: It may have been the Entity simply safeguarding Chrono Trigger, which Lavos intended to wreck.

GrayLensman: Then Dinopolis and the Dragon God was warped in to combat the forces of Lavos, i.e. FATE. Which is ironic because FATE opposes Lavos and the Dragon God is the Time Devourer's avatar on earth.

Zeality: FATE apparently gets played to death. She does not know the full extent of Project Kid, or the ones pulling the strings.

GrayLensman: Yes, but the Dragon God does not represent the planet's interests. Humans were the defenders of the Planet, as always. Fate was a tool created by humans to help humans defeat Lavos.

Zeality: I wonder if the planet intended for the Dragon God to win, or was cognizant of the Time Devourer?

Zeality: As it was only consumed after FATE had defeated it.

Zeality: Above this all, Belthasar calculated for it to lose, I'm sure.

GrayLensman: That's why I think the TD was responsible for Dinopolis. Past Lavos was acting to preserve itself, but was unknowingly setting up the defeat of the TD. The TD was fully aware of Project Kid's outcome and was trying to stop it. If Dinopolis destroys Chronopolis the TD is safe.

Zeality: How was this accomplished? Was it a coincidence, or did the Time Devourer somehow manipulate Dinopolis?

GrayLensman: The Dragon God is an inter-dimensional supercomputer to rival FATE. If The TD absorbed all of the DG's functions and had the resources of Dinopolis at its disposal (and the Dragonians under the DG's control) it may have been possible.

Zeality: The only conflict that I see is that it would require his reaching across dimensions somewhat, and...let me check the script. I'm trying to find proof for the notion that the Dragon God was consumed only after he was defeated safely in the Keystone Dimension.

GrayLensman: If the Entity summoned Dinopolis it was probably intended to lose. The Dragon Tears are needed to make the Chrono Cross, but a victorious Dragon God would be disastrous. No Serge means no project Kid.

Zeality: Whereas, if the Time Devourer summoned it, it would have the intent to win?

GrayLensman: Yes, but Belthasar would have had to foresee that too to get the Dragon Tears.

GrayLensman: Why do you think that each dimension has a separate DBT. Home and Another share the same DBT.

Zeality: I've held that that is a special case due to Home's branching off Another. I really don't understand how Kid doing a routine time traveling mission to save Serge split the dimensions.

Zeality: But other than that, it's just been the proof that if infinite dimensions exist, then some must hold Time Devourers who have been successful, and have destroyed everything. The destruction could still be localized to dimensions, but if the DBT were the same for all, we'd see these Time Devourers.

GrayLensman: Here is one possibility. Let's say there is a dimension for each possible configuration of the universe with no duplications. One configuration out of an massive but finite amount could have made the TD possible. Dimensions are not universes (i.e. they are not completely independent). All the dimensions we see have the same laws of physics and physical constants. All alternate dimensions exist in the same space-time, separated by a single higher spatial dimension.

[Some clarification: In this case there may still be infinite universes, but they are completely independent and contain separate DBTs. Any Time Devourer type beings existing in one universe cannot affect the others. --GL]

Zeality: Would this prevent any other beings from coming into existence with the power to destroy the continuum?

GrayLensman: Only one version of Lavos could form the TD in this scenario, but it does not exclude other beings of the same type. The formation of a TD class being could be so rare that it can only happen once in a universe.

GrayLensman: Remember that the TD absorbed the Dragon Gods as well. Duplicate Time Devourers could end up combining into a single being for all time.

[Leebot]

routine time traveling mission

There you have it: proof we've descended completely into insanity.

A couple of requests for info/clarification:

-Does anyone have the portion of the CT script where Crono's companions' comments on the humanoid form within Lavos?

-Could someone clarify the theory of Lavos existing in a "pocket dimension" (or point me to a post that does)?

Regarding the first point, I remember when I originally played through CT, I was somewhat baffled by the developments when the party discovered the humanoid form within Lavos. These plot points seemed to come up quite suddenly at the end of the game, with no lead-up (It would later be trumped by FF9 for "worst final boss surprise ever"). Comparing this to what CC said about the FF (part of Lavos) causing the evolution of humans, I'm starting to think that this aspect of the FF may be the producers explaining this part of the CT ending for us a game late.

[Symmetry]

Its late, and much of what I just read went through my eyes and out my ears, but my comment nonetheless:

If the Frozen Flame was indeed a fluke occurance and one that Lavos did not originally plan for, why didn't he just destroy it? There isn't something about the Flame that makes this an impossibility, is there?

With this in mind, the option that the Flame was a total fluke and ends up being the instrument that can bring Lavos/TD down seems a little wobbly to me - because then he'd just be negligent for not destroying it while he had the chance, and this seems to go against its scheming nature. (From here, the FF would have to be part of his plan, if it wasn't originally.)

[GrayLensman]

A couple of requests for info/clarification:

-Does anyone have the portion of the CT script where Crono's companions' comments on the humanoid form within Lavos?

-Could someone clarify the theory of Lavos existing in a "pocket dimension" (or point me to a post that does)?

Regarding the first point, I remember when I originally played through CT, I was somewhat baffled by the developments when the party discovered the humanoid form within Lavos. These plot points seemed to come up quite suddenly at the end of the game, with no lead-up (It would later be trumped by FF9 for "worst final boss surprise ever"). Comparing this to what CC said about the FF (part of Lavos) causing the evolution of humans, I'm starting to think that this aspect of the FF may be the producers explaining this part of the CT ending for us a game late.

I thought Lavos was well developed and the surprise revelation was presented perfectly.  Lavos actually had a reason for doing what it did, and its actions made sense.  The whole game was a slow process of discovery of Lavos' nature, building up to the final battle.

Marle: It's...humanoid...

   It seems like it has collected all of
   the vitality from the creatures who
   have lived on this planet.

Lucca: Now I understand...

   It lives on a planet for as long as
   possible, stealing away the most vital
   resources...

   It combined the DNA it found here
   with its own, and gave birth to those
   creatures up on Death Peak.

   Eventually the young must migrate to
   other planets...to repeat the cycle...

Robo: This was Lavos's goal...!

   Using the DNA of every organism...

   And achieving the ultimate in
   evolution!

Frog: This be evil!

   Indeed! This thing possesseth the
   vitality of all living creatures...

   It hath harvested DNA from animals,
   only to further its own evolution!
   And whilst sleeping, to boot!

Magus: ......

   So...since the dawn of time, it has
   slept underground, controlling
   evolution on this world for his own
   purpose...

Ayla: This smell like Ayla's
   land!
   Reptites, Ptero, Nizbel.

   Ayla, and  [member1]!
   Smell like all people I know!!...

   Smell of all living things!!

Marle: Are you saying IT'S the
   reason we're all here?

Magus: We were created only to be
   harvested.
   All people...

   ...and all living things...

Lucca: Grown like farm animals,
   waiting to be slaughtered...

   All of our history...
   our art and science...
   All to meet the needs of that...
   beast...

Frog: It...is too much to bear... We
   have been reared like animals...!
   Our lives hath been for naught...

Lavos Pocket Dimension Theory

http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/Articles/lavosdimension1.gif

Lavos displays some strange behavior.  If the travelers defeat the shell and warp into the past, the shell is still defeated.  A strange blue aura surrounds Lavos during the Ocean Palace disaster and the final battle.  Lavos Core is able to open time warps to different eras.  Lavos also appears to have knowledge of the future; during the final battle it emulate the fighting techniques of Guardian, which exists in 2300 AD.  A possible explanation is that Lavos exists within a pocket dimension or "time bubble" which transcends time.  

When Lavos arrived on earth in 65 million BC, it created a pocket dimension separate from normal space time.  A wormhole connects the pocket dimension to every time period.

An observation made by chronotriggerfreak is that the wormhole connecting the pocket dimension to space-time would be governed by the same axiom governing Gates, namely: "Determining the Destination of Time Travel via Epoch and Time Gates".  Because of this, the rate of time must be the same in the pocket dimension as the outside world.

Lavos' time axis would be perpendicular to the normal flow of time.  Lavos ages within the pocket dimension at a normal rate, but it appears to be the same from any given time period.  For example, if Lavos had existed within the pocket dimension for six million years, it would appear to be six million years old from every time period.

Anything done to Lavos from one time period, such as defeating the core, would be visible from all other time periods as well.  Therefore, if the shell is defeated, Lavos appears to have no shell from each time period.

Lavos is not actually physically present within the earth.  The wormhole aperture is located at the earth's core, giving Lavos access to the planet's energy and lifeforms. During the Day of Lavos or the Ocean Palace disaster, the wormhole ascends to the surface, causing a dimensional disturbance.  The wormhole offers an uninterrupted view of the pocket dimension, creating the illusion of Lavos' presence.

If one approaches Lavos, and passes through the wormhole, the interior of the pocket dimension has appearance of the blue aura which surrounds Lavos.  During the Ocean Palace Disaster, Queen Zeal, Magus and the others warp into the pocket dimension.  During the final battle, Crono battles Lavos in the pocket dimension.

Lavos core is able to open time warps to different times, because it is connected to those eras through the wormhole.  The aperture of the wormhole gives a distorted view of the time period being accessed.  Lavos is also able to survey the entire timeline and would have knowledge of, for example, Guardian's fighting style.

After Lavos dies, the pocket dimension no longer connects to space-time, but the past Lavos exists on a separate timeline.

As before, the only problem with the Pocket Dimension is that Lavos shell is always intact during the Ocean Palace disaster.

[Casual Observer]

It is quite possible that the Frozen Flame was mere accident, and when Lavos learned of the Flame's existence, intended to destroy it.  It has been speculated and well played within the Chrono Universe that Lavos is quite the cunning individual.  It could be that a use for the Flame may have been discovered, leading to Lavos' decision to not destroy it.  However, it simply cannot be ruled out that the Flame also presented a slight threat.  It brought about somewhat of an equality between humans and Lavos, meaning that humans became just as cunning, able to defeat Lavos at his own game.  He simply cannot risk that. It could be thought that Lavos intended to keep the flame under close supervision, but this plan backfired upon him.

By all means, discredit me.  I hate being right, and enjoy good debates.

[Leebot]

Thanks, GL. It looks like Lavos' pocket dimension fits in with my "Time-Error" theory, which explains the perpendicular time-axis. I'll also add it to my "Beyond Time" article.

[Swordmaster]

I want put theses text here foe posible study about theFalme.
They are dialogues of the CC characters with Frozen Flame.
the most interesting ones are the from Kid, Starky, Norris and Leah.
   

Kid
An ancient magical kingdom...?
That you destroyed ten thousan' year ago...?
What are ya talkin' about ?
Stop it...
I don't know nothin'!
I'm kid!! I'm myself and nobody else.

Guile
Is this what i have been serching for all this time...
No...Stop it!
I am no such thing.
What goood is it... to possess such dark power...?

Norris
If i take this with me back to Porre, there will be even more bloodshed.
And yet, it will give us enough power to withstand the other major Countries.
Is that all i have really desired this whole time...?

Nikki
Marvelous...
It's a truly marvelous tone...
It brings out light and darkness within clearly!

Viper
Hmm... Goood lord!
Is there nothing more to life than destroying and defeating one another after all...?
And only then shall living beings advance forward, to a higher level?
The survival of the Fittest?
Is that the true meaning of evolution?

Riddel
What an awfully sad light...
As long as we are alive,it is impossible to avoid partings.
If that is so, then perhaps it would be better if one did no meet at all...
Excuse me? No! It cannot be...
Is it you...? it is you! Oh, i am so relived .
You were always by my side and yet I never noticed...

Karsh
For crying out loud...
Stop it!
I know that already!
Don't read my mind any forth than that!

Zoah
Hmph!
What meaning is ther to a life of striving after wealth and power...?
It is no use to you once you die!
As for me, i choose to live in battle and one day to die in Battle.

Marcy
What?
Oh,I already know that...
I know that half of the blood within me is that of a demi-human...
And i know that it'll be easier for me if i can accept that fact.
What are you, my school counselor or something? like, tell mesomething i don't know...

Korcha
Hotchacha!
This is Greatcha!
It feel like firecrackers are going off in my head.
I getcha...
I understand it now!
All living things are connected in their hearts!
There's nothing to worry about.

Luccia
ack! vot power...
Dis power is not something man should posses.
Dä... it as just as i tough.
Several civilization have already been destroyed because of dis immense power...
As you said, my fiend...
Science should only be used for the betterhood of mankind,no

Poshul
why can't we all be friends.
Ith that the hard to do?
Watch out. me won't lose againth any big,bad,ugly enemy!

Razzly
I can hear the voices of trees an flower...
they are just like humans.
They are all hurt and are all sad.
We are  all life born from this planet...

Zappa
Aye...these auld bones have seen countless faces of the flame in mah life time...
But with this un, ah cannae say ah've ever seeen more pure and genuine hatred...

Orcha
The one that's hidin' within me is not  "another" me...
It's just another "part of me"
I am who i am...
Including my dark side.
It isn't right to think ogf my other side as a separate entity whom i can criticize...
Rather,i must accept who i'm as a whole...

Radius
Ooh...
With this power, even a an old knight like me could...
No! This is the same as what happened before, with the Masamune...
Oh, Garai... forgive me! I almost made the same grave mistake.
What was that...?
You say it is behind us now?
Is that you Garai...?
Have you forgiven me...?

Fargo
Ha,ha,ha!!
Arrgh,what are you triyng to tell me, Flame?
You say that we are all born in sin and all die in sin.
Well, i say that is why we should continue to sin,then...
Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha
Yet, is not this very reason we go on living so that we can make ammends for our sins?

Glenn
You have no right to say such a thing!
I am my own person? I will choose my own destiny with my own strenght...

Leena
yes...yes...
I know what you say may be true.
But it is because we have such a petty and short life...
...That why we all live life to the fullest, for all it's worth
No one, including you - whoever you are- has the right to takethat away from us...

Miki
You say it's no use to live pretentiously?
Well, i know that...
But isn't like me to live happy and tenaciously?

Janice
The monster aren't attacking people randomly, they are just tring to protect thenselves.
So why do people have to kill then indiscriminatelly for?
What a pitiful life we lead if that's wagt it mean to live.

Draggy
Why can't dragons and humans and everyone live togetherrr in peace?
Draggy is doing his parrt...

Starky
Wouzer!
Out of this world...!
The light of the big bang!
All start from here and all ends here...
What lies beyound that...?

Sprigg
This is power i can't make me own...
Hah! there ain't no use telling me to do anythin',chum!
...you don't ave to tell me nothin'!
I know i might've led an easier life if i'da been kinder to otherz...

Mojoy
True love is-om here...?
Love is-om eternal...
Love is-om illusion...?
that can't ... be true.
...Even if it is-om soo,I'll continue-om to convey-om true love to all...

Turnip
I don't exist-eth?
But what difference is there between reality and a dream if thou cannot tell-eth it is a dream?
I think-eth,therefore i am-eth!
I might be-eth part of some person's dream, but so long as i can think-eth,i exist-eth!

NeoFio
There is no meaning to my existence...
Other lif-Phorms are born naturally, then raised to adulthood, give birth to ophspring, then die...
Perhaps, i am like that, in a way.

Greco
Wherever there is light, there is also shadow...
So it is the light that give birth to sadow!
Ghetz, I now understand, amigo...!
But isn't too late...?

Skelly
Now that i'm dead, i've got nothin' to fear...
But what's this strange feeling i have when i look at this flame...

Funguy
Once I became a friend of the forest, I realized...
Humans don't produce things, they just destroy thing, they just destroy things!
It has became an inescapable cycle of destruction...
We need return to nature...
Like it was long ago...

Irenes
It's instinct to despise otter species.
And ä nescessit to preserve öne öwn kind.
Yoü say it isn't ä fact of life.
But i t'ink nöt!

Mel
Wow!
This mine and nobody else.
Finders keepers!
I know, I know...!
Not everything in this world goes the way i want it to...

Leah
Land angry!?
We live is bad?
We make land angry?
But leah not bad!
Leah good Leah!

Van
Mom...
Is that you , mom?
No,you aren't her!
You're just showing me what you think i want to see!

Sneff
Yes.
I know  liffe is ffull of mistakes.
But i didn't know back then what i k now now, so i have no regrets!

Steena
This is...
Divine power!
I see...
In order to save the many, the fews have to be sacrificed...
That is the truth...!?
it makes us seen oh-so-powerless...!
That is the reason why we must live shoulder-to-shoulder and hand-in-hand!

Grobyc
Complete-destruction.
you-say-it-is-grobyc's-for-the-taking?
But-what-is-left-once-you-use-it?

Orlha
yes...
I know Tia is alive!
The flame tells me so!
But why are you telling me this...?
What is it you are after?
I don't understand!

Pip
I am evowving!
And will keep on evowving.
But what I turn into, nobody can tell...

Macha
Why can't we all just be happy for once?
If only we could all hold hands and live together in peace and harmony?
Why can't peoples understand this...?

Pierre
I understand now!
A true hero knows fear...
And yet while knowing fear he still has the courage to put up a fight!
If moi lack the caliber to be called such then moi will just have to work harder!

Doc
Humans are like totally powerless, dude!
With crafty knowledge wemayextend our lives a a fraction but we just extend our suffering too.
But inreality, all we can do is leave ourselves in nature's hands and die the way nature intend us to...
Thats is the awesome truth!?
Gnarly!            

[dpodubs]

This is just a thought that popped into my head.........by all means discredit it or agree with it if ya want to:

Reading the quote from the above post made my Starky.....i'll requote it:

"Wouzer!
Out of this world...!
The light of the big bang!
All start from here and all ends here...
What lies beyound that...? "

Now this quote led me to come up with a reasonable (In my opinion) theory about why Lavos/TD couldn't destroy the Frozen Flame. It couldn't because the Frozen Flame was far more powerful than it. Starky talks about the light of the Big Bang, leading me to speculate that the Frozen Flame may very well be a byproduct of the big bang or what caused the Big Bang in the first place. What do you all think??

Oh and another mystery this has led me too....If Starky is from outer space then is it possible that many Lavos's have destroyed many planets? And maybe Starky is on a mission to find a way to destroy them? Maybe Starky is not letting his true motives be known? Starky has always been an enigma to me. Also maybe Starky knows about where the origin of all the Lavos's is (maybe some higher being is using these Lavos's for a greater scheme...I always thought that maybe this "higher being" manipulated the events of CT and CC to find a way [maybe get a genetic code] to create a creature more powerful than it's army of Lavos's??)

Well i hope that this speculation will led to more findings and theories!!

[Hadriel]

My belief is that there is only one Tesseract for every timeline/dimension.  It is said that discarded timelines go there.  Certain timelines persist for a purpose, most likely at the behest of the Entity.  The only other possibility for Dinopolis' introduction into the world is that the planet can pull stuff right out of the Tesseract.  A timeline is the exact same thing as a dimension, technically.  Every alternate dimension is another timeline, another way the universe could have developed.  Therefore, the Time Devourer is a unique phenomenon to the Keystone dimension, but due to its heightened ability to facilitate time and dimensional travel, it poses a threat to the entire omniverse.  The only dimension actually fated to exist is the Keystone dimension -- all others are floating around in the Tesseract somewhere.  However, as I've said, certain phenomena could possibly allow timelines which would normally go into the DBT to persist.  The Entity would be one such thing, whether it is indeed the planet or not.

As for civilization today and it being almost on par with Lavos, I'd have to take issue with that.  Lavos survived a multi-gigaton impact into Earth 65 million years ago.  We possess no weapons of anywhere near that caliber.  In fact, no weapon we have ever tested, to my knowledge, has exceeded a yield of 100 megatons.  Only the technology of Zeal could have dealt with him.  Lavos must have realized this, because he destroyed it.  But, he let the Black Omen/Ocean Palace live as a gigantic shrine to his power and a way to summon him out of his time bubble.  However, some of the technology of 2300 AD resembles that of Zeal.

The Flame, seeing as how it splintered off in the crash, does seem to be a part of Lavos directly involved with thinking, or at least made so by him.  In fact, given that Lavos inhabited a time bubble opening into the Earth's core, rather than the core itself, the Flame would be his only avatar in the world, because in CT he inhabits a time bubble, and in CC he's stuck in the Tesseract.  

As for the Time Devourer evolving in the first place, he started the mutation right after the fall of Zeal.  However, on that timeline, since neither El Nido nor the Dragons existed, he could not facilitate his full mutation.  Therefore, one possibility is that he simply allowed himself to be killed in the time bubble and put up little more than a token fight against Crono and friends.  This seems to massacre the point of the original CT, not something that I particularly like.  However, there exists another possibility about why Lavos couldn't put up a full fight against either of his major opponents.  I shall delve into that in a bit.

In this way, Lavos would be using Crono to create the new timeline, on which Chronopolis existed and could be pulled back in time.  This would piss off the planet, who would then violate the laws of time to get Dinopolis into Keystone.  Of course, Chronopolis would win the fight, allowing Lavos to absorb the Dragon God's full power right after it created Harle and got split into six.  Lavos created the Dragon God avatar in order to manipulate Serge into allowing him access to the lost Frozen Flame.  Perhaps Lavos was still able to use the Flame after it left him, but it would only regain its (and his) full capacity when it returned to him.  THIS is the reason why Lavos couldn't use his full strength against Crono -- the lack of the Frozen Flame.  Humans getting their hands on it served as a double-edged sword for Lavos -- it would enable him to get the best possible genes and energy out of this planet to pass on to the next generation of Lavoids, but it would also create opponents that could destroy him.  I guess it was a risk he was willing to take -- there were risks involved in landing here in the first place, after all.

[koolkame]

I've always thought of Lavos as a manufactured being, a bioweapon made by some ancient alien civilization. In this line of thinking, couldn't the Frozen Flame be some sort of fail-safe, (Promemtheus circuit) designed in case Lavos went rogue? By evolving humanity, the Flame could have prepared a countermeasure (humans) to defeat Lavos. Maybe that's why the Time Devourer needed the Flame from Chronopolis so it could reach full power by harnessing the evolution protocols to evolve and destroy the universe.

Though Lavos uses the DNA of humanity to create the ultimate being, it doesn't really use humans much in the Lavos Timeline. Mostly they seem to get in the way (Zeal, Crono, Serge) because the long term goals of humanity and Lavos do not coincide, to say the least. Humans may be altered by Lavos (the Flame) but there is no paternal warmth on the space bug's part. Queen Zeal may have chosen by Lavos (an Arbiter?) to safeguard against the Planet by foiling Chrono's team

In closing the Flame is still part of Lavos and by no means a conscience, but it may be a component similar to the Prometheus circuit, a neutral entity designed to prevent Lavos creating his ultimate being. As GrayLensman said, the Flame may be what allowed humanity to defeat Lavos. Note that all the party members in the first game were all human or created by humans and humans were able to use magic after contact with the Flame. Ayla's people were the template the Flame used to create a Lavos antibody: modern man.

This is a pretty complicated theory for me so feel free to tell me how wrong I am.

[Hiroshino]

Personally, it sounds like the Frozen Flame had splintered off of Lavos upon impact of the Earth by accident. Think about it, did Lavos plan on having a part of himself splinter off upon impact of a foreign planet, with the sole purpose of achieving the perfect state of evolution, and producing spawns to repeat the cycle? Lavos just wanted to, in my opinion, find a planet, use all the DNA/data/etc etc on it and achieve its perfect or more perfect state of evolution, create spawns to pass these "genes" on to, destroy the said planet, and have the spawns depart the ruined planet and continue the process but in a more perfect state of evolution. I do not think that the Frozen Flame's existence (I say existence because it became existent after splintering off from its original source and becoming its own being/substance/whatever) was intended. I'm sure that Lavos, upon discovering the said piece of itself (the Frozen Flame), that it either wanted to merge back with a part of its self or destroy that piece for what ever reason. Schala was just unfortunate enough to somehow get involved in the Darkness Beyond Time because of the whole incident with the black (time)gates during the Ocean Palace incident. And Belthasar discovered Schala's involvement with the Frozen Flame and then we get into this whole mess with the Time Crash and shit. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

I also do not believe that the Frozen Flame was created by the Big Bang or any involvement in the Big Bang because somewhere in the game or its script, it says that the Frozen Flame was a piece that splintered off of Lavos upon impact of the Earth. And personally, I think Lavos was either one of many spawns from another Lavos or Lavos himself came from a distant planet where many of its own kind exist. Heck, their main planet might have rotted because Lavos tends to act like a parasite and the planet could have been a parasitic planet full of parasitic beings of Lavos' kind. This is all opinionated and if any information on here is incorrect, feel free to correct me any time.

Belthasar Sequence in Terra Tower . . .

Belthasar: Oh, my name is Belthasar... In the ancient, magical Kingdom of Zeal, I was known as a Sage of Reason... Well, that was up until the Queen of Zeal attempted to harness the power of Lavos... Let's just say, things got out of control and Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future! There, I seized the oppurtunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the future. Anyway, this led me to make huge progress in the research of time. Well, that researched to the creation of Chronopolis and to the Time Crash... You might think I really blew it, but perhaps it was really my finest hour! Ho-ho-hoh... Anyway... I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the "Neo Epoch." I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out.

Belthasar: Terra Tower is really a city of the Reptites from another dimension's future... It was originally "Dinopolis"... The castle of Azala's descendants, who achieved an evolution much more intimate with our planet. Dinopolis was drawn into this dimension's past about ten thousand years ago... This was done so that it would serve as a counter-balance against Chronopolis, which Lavos pulled here.

Belthasar: Needless to say, a fierce battle ensued... In the end, Chronopolis emerged as the victor, and the Reptite's fortress was sealed away by FATE... But more important now is the role the Dragons play in all of this... Originally, the whole Archipelago of El Nido was known as the Sea of Eden. This was because it was where the Dragon Gods resided. But then FATE sealed away the Dragon Gods' powers, in effect becoming a god itself. Thus the islands where the new godhead, FATE, existed came to be called the Sea of Eden instead. Perhaps you didn't realize it, but you were used by the Dragon Gods to eliminate FATE! It was not true that the Dragon Gods sealed away the Frozen Flame... Rather, it's quite the opposite... It was FATE that used the power of the Flame to seal up the Dragon Gods. In reality, the Dragon Gods are in opposition to man, while FATE itself was actually the protector of humanity! The Dragon Gods were originally a singular plasma life-form... ...A living accumulation of the planet's energy! Originally it was a biological machine used to control the powers of nature in the future society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural energy itself, FATE divided the one Dragon God entity up into six weaker plasma life-forms... Then scattered them across the land and sealed them away. Their dragon-like appearances are just pseudo-guises... ...Temporary forms they take so that they can appear in this dimension. But all that changed when FATE was vanquished and its powerhold was eliminated! At that moment, the seven Dragons who had been rendered almost powerless and forgotten... traveled across the dimensions to reunite into a single entity!

Party Member: Seven Dragons? I thought there were only six!?

Belthasar: There were six Dragons you knew of and one more hidden Dragon you didn't... Like the second moon that once was lost, but later found... Although the same planet, my world didn't have two moons! Look up at the night sky and you will see seven celestial bodies... Five stars and two moons... Five brother stars that correspond to the five colored Dragons, ruling like gods over the night skies... One moon that corresponds to the white Sky Dragon... And another darker, daughter moon to counterbalance them. The Fire Dragon, the Water Dragon, the Green Dragon, the Earth Dragon, the Black Dragon, the Sky Dragon, and one more... The final Dragon... The dark moon Dragon... The one who was to work to free the other Dragons from their bondage by the FATE computer... The child the others created on the night of the electric storm that temporarily caused FATE to loosen its hold on them... I believe you knew her as... Harle.

Party Member: ......!!! Unbelievable!

Belthasar: The Dragon Gods were the essence of nature on this planet... Perhaps we can consider what's happening as our planet's vengeance on us... To finally sweep away the unwanted humans from the face of the blue planet...

Party Member: First it was FATE, now it's the planet...?

Belthasar: Or vice-versa... But either way you look at it, now's the time to set things right. The future of mankind... The destiny of this planet... Everything depends on the next battle you will fight. But unfortunately the time for us to part has come...

I found this somewhere and figured that it could possibly contribute to all of this.

[ZeaLitY]

Inquiry

In Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame is stated to be a splinter of Lavos' shell which separated when Lavos crashed into the earth. Around 3 million BC, it was responsible for the evolution of human intelligence. It follows that the FF could be involved with the manipulation of all life on earth by Lavos, but that is never confirmed. Was the Frozen Flame a purposeful splinter?

Theories

1.) The fission of the Flame was an accident which may or may not have benefited Lavos.

If the Flame was not responsible for the majority of Lavos' genetic manipulations, there is no reason for it to need the Flame to advance human intelligence. We know that human intelligence resulted directly from contact with the Frozen Flame. If the Flame was not part of Lavos' plan, then the evolution of human intelligence was accidental and perhaps even opposed to Lavos' plan. This makes sense because the Zeal Kingdom--the direct result of human intelligence and supremacy--posed enough of a threat to Lavos that it had to be destroyed. If this is the case, the existence of the Flame may have been one of the factors which allowed Lavos to be defeated and the Time Devourer to be created, as opposed to all the other planets infested by Lavoids.

2.) Lavos deliberately created the Flame as part of its plan.

The Frozen Flame was the instrument by which Lavos manipulated the evolution of all life on earth, however the Dragonian/Chronopolean Researches only saw the need to document the evolution of humans. The Flame may have been an essential physical link between Lavos in the Pocket Dimension (which opens to the interior of the earth) and the biosphere of the planet. Evolution was manipulated through direct contact with the Frozen Flame, perhaps even through the release of biological agents. Additionally, option 1.) may have taken place, and Lavos decided to take advantage of the situation through this scenario.

Misconceptions

The situation with the Time Devourer cannot be applied to the above discussion; here is why. The Frozen Flame conveniently also may exist as a backup plan utensil. The "lost" overarching plotline of Chrono Cross suggests that those who contact the Flame as Arbiters were susceptible to merging with Lavos as the Time Devourer or stopping the process. Following this idea, which suggests Schala was an Arbiter, the Frozen Flame could allow an eliminated Lavos to exact revenge by merging with Arbiters to become the Time Devourer. This is probably a very unique case, however, which negates its ability to be considered in the above inquiry.

~

I am also marking this thread for its use with the Lavos article. I'm going to PM GrayLensman about something else. At the moment, the presence of a Flame and the possibility of genetic farming seems to be very advantageous to Lavos, but the Arbiter situation still seems to be a negative influence.

[ZeaLitY]

Inquiry

Who manipulated who in Chrono Cross?

Answer

Chrono Cross features many cases of manipulation and transcendent control.  Starting at the bottom, Wazuki was controlled by the FATE supercomputer and made to do its bidding as Lynx. Erstwhile, FATE had been duped by the Prometheus Circuit; the supercomputer had no idea that the circuit even existed before it engaged and locked the Frozen Flame's access. Expanding the scope, FATE manipulated the people of El Nido through the Records of FATE. Through Lynx, FATE manipulated Serge into switching bodies at Fort Dragonia. Later, Lynx manipulated Kid after the Fort Dragonian incident. Switching to the other side, the Time Devourer consumed the Dragon God, probably manipulating it afterwards. Consider that the Dragon God stole away the Frozen Flame, which Serge needed to defeat the Time Devourer; it served it in this manner. Harle reported to the Dragon God, and in the end had to fulfill its wishes rather than stay with Serge, who she had come to love. The Dragon God itself manipulated Serge by convincing him to destroy FATE, which allowed the Dragon God to take the Frozen Flame. Before this occurred, Harle had manipulated Lynx for some time as she traveled with him to gain his trust and get closer to the FATE supercomputer.

By far, the man in charge is Belthasar, who planned all the events in the game and knew the outcome beforehand. He ultimately controlled everyone until the final battle, when Serge consciously decided to face the Time Devourer and free Schala on his own merit.