Author Topic: Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?  (Read 7737 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2005, 02:47:22 am »
There are a few things that I would think on this matter. Firstly, I think he was likely one of the higher lords of that kingdom. I would hold that he was one of high blood, perhaps of near kin to the queen herself. (Out of accordance with the game, and merely in my own view, I would hold him to be one of the ten Field Lords of Zeal, those that commanded ten-thousand. In that regard he would hold the highest level of command, save for those of the royal house, and have one of the ten Starswords, the symbols of that office, in his keeping. But, once again... that's my own winged ideas speaking.) However, returning to the character as in the game...
As has been said, he does appear to have a certain measure of standing at the side of the queen, and likely was, as a warrior, her bodyguard. As proof of this I bring forward that, on your entrance into her throne-hall, he asks her if he may be permitted to remove you. He may be soundly defeated, but his standing forward at once makes him appear so. To bring forward a historical analogy, I would hold his position similar to that of the Praetorian guard. They were the bodyguards of the Roman emperors, to be sure, but had ambitions of their own at times (they often had their hands in the assassination of emperors and the successions, after all.) Thus I think his ambition, and seeming bodyguard status, could lead him to be seen in such a light. That also ties in to what the last responded said about his views toward the royal family.

ZeaLitY

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2005, 02:51:44 am »
Interesting allusion that will be added to the Real World Influences article. Those shifty Byzantines and their plots...

Sentenal

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2005, 04:23:57 pm »
Wait, Byzantines didn't have the Praetorian Guard...  That was only for the emperors of the west half...

wait, were going off topic.  Him being a body guard would be a good idea as well.  We know that in Square games, the body guards of rulers usally command the army as well.  Kefka in FF6, Thanatos,Geshtar,Sheex, and Fanha in Secret of Mana...

Lord J Esq

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2005, 07:26:05 am »
This is somewhat incidental, but I doubt that Zeal even had a military as we would think of it. And why would it? A military against what? Canonically, I can’t remember any quotes to suggest Zeal maintained troops or war materiel. The notion of a military is rooted in the premise of nation-states, and Zeal had a world monopoly on political sovereignty. There was no one to oppose the Monarch; the Zealish themselves were above that sort of thing while the Earthbound Ones were broken-spirited and submissive. Judging by their behavior in the game, I would think the Earthbounds accepted their status as inferiors and toiled for the Enlightened Ones not because they were staring down the proverbial barrel of a gun, but simply because hard labor was their lot in life, and they didn’t have the spirit to imagine that life could be better.

My point is that Dalton as a general or other military authority would imply a martial force for him to command, the existence of which I find dubious at best. Instead I have always thought of him as the Queen’s chief of staff, responsible for enforcing her policies, protecting her person, administering her court, and offering counsel. Most of these capacities are confirmed in the game, indirectly, as we know that Dalton was the first in line to stop Crono & Co. when they crashed the throne room, that he was in charge of the Ocean Palace construction effort (until the Prophet replaced him), that he was the Queen’s chief counselor (until the Prophet replaced him), and that he was apparently entrusted with control of the Blackbird, as we see his guards stationed there from the first.

He seems like the equivalent of Guardia’s chancellor more so than anything else…he is the veritable outstretched arm of Queen Zeal. And only she would hire a mercurial goof like him…

GrayLensman

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2005, 12:48:32 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
This is somewhat incidental, but I doubt that Zeal even had a military as we would think of it. And why would it? A military against what? Canonically, I can’t remember any quotes to suggest Zeal maintained troops or war materiel. The notion of a military is rooted in the premise of nation-states, and Zeal had a world monopoly on political sovereignty. There was no one to oppose the Monarch; the Zealish themselves were above that sort of thing while the Earthbound Ones were broken-spirited and submissive. Judging by their behavior in the game, I would think the Earthbounds accepted their status as inferiors and toiled for the Enlightened Ones not because they were staring down the proverbial barrel of a gun, but simply because hard labor was their lot in life, and they didn’t have the spirit to imagine that life could be better.

You are aware of the thousands of Zealian soldiers the time travellers fought in the Ocean Palace and Blackbird?

Sentenal

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2005, 01:28:45 pm »
No country in history has ever successfully operated without a military.  If Zeal didn't have a military, what would stop the Earthbound people from rebelling agianst them?  What would stop a inner strife and revolution in the kingdom?  A military is essential to security, regardless if there are other nation-states out there to challenge you.

GreenGannon

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2005, 03:12:50 pm »
They probably had a sort of military, although probably not for the Earthbounds as I agree with the point about having no spirit. It was probably to keep things from an inner rebellion, as there would always be someone trying to overthrow a government.

Aitrus

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2005, 06:33:51 pm »
Yeah, they probably did have a police force, to prevent crimes and suppress rebellions should such a thing happen - which I seriously doubt.  But against the Earthbound, no military would be needed.  After all, when even the weakest Zealians can utilize Magic, why should they fear the Earthbound, who can at best utilize primitive swords, but most likely are still in the "tie pointy rock to stick" stage?  I wouldn't.

Lord J Esq

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2005, 07:28:37 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
You are aware of the thousands of Zealian soldiers the time travellers fought in the Ocean Palace and Blackbird?


Yes, I am aware. However, can you be sure they were "soldiers"? Correct me if I am wrong, but other than Dalton himself and possibly his henchmen, I do not recall Crono & Co. fighting any human beings in the Ocean Palace...only monsters and mechanisms. Were there any standard battle enemies with a military uniform and insignia, named in a military fashion? Again, correct me if I am wrong, but I just don't recall any.

Quote from: Sentenal
No country in history has ever successfully operated without a military.  If Zeal didn't have a military, what would stop the Earthbound people from rebelling agianst them?  What would stop a inner strife and revolution in the kingdom?  A military is essential to security, regardless if there are other nation-states out there to challenge you.


How do you know a place like the Kingdom of Zeal can compare so closely to real human history? We're talking about a place that has achieved a state of accomplishment so high that its people are utterly mollified. They are given to their work, or even to sleeping their lives away. They're not like you and me. I simply cannot imagine a rebellion fomenting before the Queen went wacko, and of course shortly after that there wasn't much left of the Kingdom anyhow. You cite "inner strife and revolution" as a reason for maintaining a military; I invite you to demonstrate where and how this could have occured. The Gurus were said to guide the Kingdom, and even when they vanished because of their own, limited disagreement with the Queen's policies, the Zealish people hardly blinked. The political tension wasn't there, and it never was. The Kingdom of Zeal might have had a military force long ago, when it was still more of a nation-state as we know the word, but I'll bet you a steak dinner that such an entity simply became obsolete over time.

As for the Earthbound Ones, I think the other comments posted in reply to me along with my earlier post pretty much put this idea to rest...at the most we can imagine that the Earthbounds had overseers and guards to keep them in check. There would have been absolutely no need, however, for Zeal to devort a whole military simply to controlling them. The Earthbounds had all but given up...they were almost as broken-spirited as the Dome Dudes from the 24th century.

Quote from: Aitrus
Yeah, they probably did have a police force, to prevent crimes and suppress rebellions should such a thing happen - which I seriously doubt.  But against the Earthbound, no military would be needed.  After all, when even the weakest Zealians can utilize Magic, why should they fear the Earthbound, who can at best utilize primitive swords, but most likely are still in the "tie pointy rock to stick" stage?  I wouldn't.


Again, from what quarter of the Kingdom would these "crimes and rebellions" arise? I think we're superimposing cultural constants onto a culture so unlike most we have seen here on Earth that the constants are actually inapplicable.

I would be willing to compromise and agree that Zeal Kingdom no doubt had some sort of civil authority responsible for, among other things, maintaining law and order, but I would disagree with the terminology "police force," which in my opinion assigns more weight than is due to their roles as peacekeepers. The police force is but a single province in the domain of any civil government, and in Zeal, even less so!

GrayLensman

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2005, 10:07:26 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: GrayLensman
You are aware of the thousands of Zealian soldiers the time travellers fought in the Ocean Palace and Blackbird?


Yes, I am aware. However, can you be sure they were "soldiers"? Correct me if I am wrong, but other than Dalton himself and possibly his henchmen, I do not recall Crono & Co. fighting any human beings in the Ocean Palace...only monsters and mechanisms. Were there any standard battle enemies with a military uniform and insignia, named in a military fashion? Again, correct me if I am wrong, but I just don't recall any.




Do these guys who dress alike and fight in groups under the command of Dalton count as soldiers?

Daniel Krispin

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2005, 10:37:10 pm »
Hmmm...
Well, I think that it is a valid thing to superimpose common culture onto that of Zeal. After all, the situations may change, but human nature does not. The way Zeal begins to worship the Mammon Machine, for example, strikes me as similar to the way in which the Israelites forge the golden calf, and thus begin to worship a god of their own making, and the Devil through it. Though they lived in a grand kingdom, the people of Zeal would have behaved no differently than any of us in the same situation. As they say about power, it corrupts. Now, I pray your patience, but I have always seen Zeal as similar to Tolkien's Numenor, not least because they are both a version of the Atlantis legend. Moreover, both are destroyed in the quest for immortality. I've mentioned that time and again, so I won't repeat myself more. But the point is, I see the military of Zeal in something of the same manner. After all, who could oppose Numenor? What enemy did they have in all the world? Sauron lived, yes, but not until the very end did he show his hand. Why then the great arming of Numenor? Because they turned on the West: they, by the guile of Sauron, began to see their allies and friends as foes. As Elendil says, 'we who have no enemies are embattled with impegnable fortresses, and mostly on the west...'. Those with no foes begin looking for them. And as for the earthbound who are opressed... it's yet another similarity. Those of Numenor began to opress the lesser people of Middle-Earth, demanding tribute and finally enslaving them. It coloured my perception of Zeal, actually, and I see Zeal as having a similar history. I think that, at first, they were good and gracious (as most things begin, with good will), but as time went by they became corrupt and opressive. Thus we have the hosts of Zeal. Schala in my fanfic speaks of it at length, and pretty much sums up what I thought of the Zeal military. Here:
---
"Ah, Zeal! How clearly I yet remember your splendour and magnificence! Ai, es meredet malecho! Serge, nothing seems magnificent to one who has once seen those towers. And the armies of my land, one hundred thousand strong, against which no foe could stand. Not merely dauntless and valiant, but so wondrous and beautiful to look upon: our spears, whose heads were cut of flawless diamond, shimmering as fields of crystal in the midday light; our swords, woven with enchantment which no malice could undo, shining pale in the twilight as the sun crept below our horizons; and the golden helms and gilded coats of mail of even the lowliest soldier. When the war trumpets of Zeal sounded aloud it was a symbol of fear to all the earthbound kingdoms, and even the mightiest land trembled at the very rumour of our coming. For to them it seemed as if the very heavens broke open with thunder, and gleaming legions of angels descended; so magnificent were the hosts of old Zeal. And so by the time of my life there was no enemy to Zeal in all the western world. Beneath our heel we held subject all the lands of the west. Some might say with stern yet benevolent lordship, while others would name us tyrants, oppressing all beneath us. For what I knew, we were some of both. At times our great masters of lore would come among the people yet lacking any strength of sorcery, and teach them what they could of our knowledge. But as the years lengthened we became cold and stern, and tired of the life granted us. It was not our beauty that diminished; that grew till the very hour of our destruction. But on a time the forums of Zeal were thronged with multitudes, not only of Zeal but also of the earth. It was partly by their strength that the Arythfala, the Pillars of the Stars, the beautiful towers of the citadel, were raised. However in the last days to which I belonged no earthbound could so much as peer up at the Kingdom without fear of punishment. And this was at the command of my mother the Queen, and few dared oppose her in word or action. Her three counsellors, the great Masters, did so, and thus they were banished to far flung and woeful prisons. I also worked against her evil, though being but a child did so more in secret, and through an indirect hand. I alone of all the high Zeal court yet visited the lands beneath, to bring my learning to those unenlightened that lay under our rule. But I did far too little, and was blind to how far things had come, because for all our might, we crumbled at our own hands. Our grandest legions could not forestall the enemy that we became unto ourselves. And in my weakness I did not, I could not, oppose this nearing end."
---
Remember as well that I think that what is shown is but a small portion of the world. There are lands far east and west which, for many hundreds of years, the hands of the Zeal Kingdom could not touch. They were a land that was upon the air, thus unassailable it is true (and thus having a great advantage in matters of war; they could fully empty their land without fear for retribution... mostly.) But how big is it? I don't think it's more than 100km across, which is quite small, really. In time it probably drew into alliance, and later absorbed, those lands about it (like Rome did with the Latin League), eventually gaining power over the whole of the West. Those who had skills in sorcery were likely welcomed into the high court, whilst those without were made to toil in the silver mines and what not (after all, Zeal is not that large, and only the mightiest would be allowed to dwell on it.) Finally, this bred arrogance, and absolute oppression. But I stray away from the topic of the military.
Zeal did not all at once have dominion over the world. It needed to conquer. And thus the army. Now, in history, the military is very powerful usually. Take Rome: often the generals had enough support from the legions to have themselves declared emperor (at least in later times.) Thus even after there is no foe left in any near land, and they control the greatest empire to ever be (not just the land of Zeal itself, but a vast area all about the world), the military would not disband. Firstly, they are not fully invincible. Secondly, as has been said, rebellion must be quelled. And thirdly, you CANNOT simply tell a general and his legion of thousands of soldiers to disband. What would happen? Civil war. They would march up your forum and take your capital by force. Therefore the military remains, if for nothing else than for itself, and by the time of the Ruin is quite impressive, though mostly for show.
Well, that's how I see it. As you probably know by now, my imagination is a rampant thing, and I take much artistic license.

Aitrus

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2005, 10:59:04 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Again, from what quarter of the Kingdom would these "crimes and rebellions" arise? I think we're superimposing cultural constants onto a culture so unlike most we have seen here on Earth that the constants are actually inapplicable.


It could very well be taht we are imposing cultural constants from our experience onto this when they are not valid.  However, what true evidence is there that these constants do not apply?  True, there is no real enemy for Zeal to fight.  However, wouldn't Zeal's own citizenry be enough?  After all, uneasy lies the head that wears the crown.  And as Guardian of Ages said more eloquently than I, when there is no enemy to fight, human nature easily makes one up.  Either a completely imaginary enemy, one's allies (a case which is inapplicable to Zeal), or other portions of your own county.

GreenGannon

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2005, 11:00:40 pm »
To be honest, I'm planning on writing a very short fic--nothing like my projects--drawing paralells between the transition from Azala to Zeal and the transition from Czar to Communism.

So common culture could very well apply.

Andrelvis

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2005, 11:20:49 pm »
Quote from: GreenGannon
To be honest, I'm planning on writing a very short fic--nothing like my projects--drawing paralells between the transition from Azala to Zeal and the transition from Czar to Communism.

So common culture could very well apply.


Huh?! What does Communism has to do with Zeal's type of government?!

GreenGannon

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Dalton of Zeal - Who Was He?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2005, 01:39:43 am »
There seem to be some paralells. Not enough to say that Zeal was based on it (I doubt it.) But a few that are interesting to entertain.