Theories and Questions on Lavos

[Chrono'99]

The world is destroyed for the humans and most living beings, but it's perfectly fine conditions for the Lavos Spawns (and the mutants, and the rats...). As Mother Brain said in the Japanese version, the world will recover when the Lavos Spawns leave the planet.

[Kyronea]

...huh.  Well...if Belthesar/Hash said that...  ...then I guess Lavos isn't any more sentient than a dog or a cat would be...  And thus, couldn't be reasoned with.  But still...I don't understand how destroying the world would make ideal living conditions for its Mini-Lavos spawn.

Nothing says a parasite can't be sentient, though I will concede that Lavos is at least parasitical in nature, insomuch as it takes energy from the planet.

I don't think environmental conditions matter for spawning, however: only safety matters. Given that Lavos is capable of space travel and the spawns themselves are living in a cold, desolate environment on Death Peak, we can see that in all likelihood they only need the nourishment of the planet. As such, the only probable reason for the destruction of the world is, again, safety and survival for Lavos and his spawn.

Chrono'99: Yes, but recover how and to what extent? Given the Mother Brain's genocidal rampages, the only life forms that would continue to exist would be the robots. Nothing organic would remain. So what exactly was it that she meant by recovery? Could it simply mean rebuilt by the robots for the robots once the spawns were out of the way and no longer posed a threat to them, or vice versa?

[Chrono'99]

Chrono'99: Yes, but recover how and to what extent? Given the Mother Brain's genocidal rampages, the only life forms that would continue to exist would be the robots. Nothing organic would remain. So what exactly was it that she meant by recovery? Could it simply mean rebuilt by the robots for the robots once the spawns were out of the way and no longer posed a threat to them, or vice versa?

Totally good point! Here's what she says exactly:

   This planet WILL recoVER.
   If only humans weren't here...…

   And the new world of we robots WOULD be
   constructed.
   A country of iron...... a utopia with neither
   hatred nor sorrow.

I always thought it meant that the planet ecosystem will literally recover, but now I think otherwise. As you said, she probably wasn't talking about the planet's life but about her robot civilisation ("a country of iron"). She probably wants the robots to become the new lords of the land, after the Humans and after the Reptites.

[AuraTwilight]

Plus, if the Planet's biosphere was going to recover, the Entity (if we believe it to be the Planet) wouldn't make such a big deal about Lavos messing it up.

Plus the entire outlook of the human race, the atmosphere, the music, the totally ruined barren wasteland, gives this vibe of there being absolutely no hope unless the event is undone.

[Radical_Dreamer]

...huh.  Well...if Belthesar/Hash said that...  ...then I guess Lavos isn't any more sentient than a dog or a cat would be...  And thus, couldn't be reasoned with.  But still...I don't understand how destroying the world would make ideal living conditions for its Mini-Lavos spawn.

Because the planet isn't where the spawns are going to live out their lives. Scorching the nest to prevent those who know the destructive power of the Lavos species from sending warnings out is quite shrewd.

[redorbofhate]

Incorrect. Lavos never actually lives on or in another organism, unless you count the planet, and even that's a stretch.

     But wasn't the intention to actually make the planet an organic being reacting to the scourge of lavos, perhaps with a sentience of its own, by employing the help of Chrono and his team via the gates?  Isn't the planet supposed to be "The Entity?"   

[Kyronea]

The planet is a being, yes, but it's not an organic one so much as a spiritual entity, if you will, presuming that the idea of the planet follows suit with other Square games in this regard.

But then I conceded the point anyway, as Lavos is parasitical in nature.

[redorbofhate]

 I don't believe Lavos to be a malevolent being per se, but one so vast in size and power, beyond the comprehension of humans on earth to the point where it's absolutely horrifying, or in the case of Zeal, totally enrapturing.  Brings to mind Lovecraft and Cthulu...

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, but even Cthullu was malevolent, what with his intent to rip apart the known universe and such.

Lavos is clearly a malevolent creature, or atleast completely unbound by any sort of moral, ethical, or honor code. This much is undeniable. He's not some benevolent being that got shanked like the OP is trying to claim.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Carnivorism is not malevolence. The scope and scale of Lavos' hunger does not change that.

[Romana]

I just see Lavos as a creature following its natural instincts. I can't think of it being 'malevolent' out of its own intention at all, but of course, there's definitely the possibility of interpretation. Its character is intended to be seen as a threat, though.

[Mystic Frog King]

I agree with both Faf and AuraTwilight to an extent. It is folloing its natural instincts, and although it may not know itself that they are malevolent and harmful, from the point of view of the party it certainly seems that way. The humans, to Lavos, are as ants are to us: although Lavos recognizes the humans as a threat to it's offspring and completely annhilates their civilizations in an attempt to survive.

It's species Vs. species. Each is acting in the 'right' way according to the different morals and instincts of each race. If Lavos is sentient, then it certainly has a vastly different way of looking at things than we do. Although it is portrayed as a nasty, horrible enemy, and while it's actions may be selfish and (from our point of view) horrific, it is acting to preserve it's own species, exactly what the humans are doing. The situation can be likened to the human-reptite war. Azala sees the humans as dumb apes- pests. Ayla sees the Reptites as cruel, vicious monsters.

So, to summarize: if Lavos has any form of sentience at all then it has a completely different perspective on humans- radically different to how Crono and co. see the human race.

[Mr. Molecule]

In Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead, he proposes a scale of alienness: first, there's the utlanning, a member of your tribe; second, the framling, a member of your species but of a second tribe; third, the ramen, a member of a seperate, sentient species that you can reason with and live alongside; and fourth, thevarelse, a member of a sentient species with which there is no reasoning. These days, Card is completely batshit insane, but back in the day he had some good ideas.

In Chrono, there are a number of ramen; the mystics, the reptites, the demi-humans. (Note that just because you CAN live peacfully alongside a species doesn't mean you WILL.) Lavos, however, I beleive is varelse. It has showed sentience, (although NOT in its ability to corrupt people; people, eg Queen Zeal, corrupt themselves in pusuit of its power) but never communicate with people--in CC, it's the time devourer that communicates, and it's half-human, remember. Lavos can't be classified on our scale of morality, and it can't be reasoned with, not because it's stupid or stubborn, but because its thought run (metaphorically) perpindicular to human thought.

Again, that's not to say it's vastly smarter than humans--though it is more powerful than any single human--just that it exists on another plane of sentience. Its simple varelse.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Eh...I thought it would be very clear that Lavos is sentient. He clearly knows what he's doing. His structure is very complex, and he took great care to protect himself. First is the exoskeleton that protects him from any attack. It is like a bio-organic machine that he mans from the inside. Then his second layer seems even more organic. Bio-suit or something. His second line of defense. Once you beat that down, you see the real lavos...Not the alien suit, which is just a facade to trick you. The right bit is what holds all of his DNA, his being.  In short, Lavos is a very small being, which constructed all these extra layers to ensure its survival. It even does it for its Lavoids. Or do people see it in another way?

It seems to choose and harvest what it considers to be the positive genes of all life forms, in order to better itself. Probably got the genes of other planets from its parent, and it planned to pass the ones from this planet to its offspring. It does not care about others, it just wants to be the best it can be. Lavos and his offspring are the culmination of many perished planets, so it is doubtful that it sees us as anything more than a mass of genes. I guess you can kinda consider it like a Wasp on a Tarantula...The Wasp neutralizes the spider and takes off its legs, but keeps it alive. It lays eggs, which hatch into larvae, which consume the weakened spider. Once they consume it, they fly off and lay their eggs on new Tarantula. Lavos weakens down the planet's defenses first, lays its lavoids, they consume the planet, and fly off to find more planets to repeat the process with.

[Mr. Molecule]

Evolution creates some pretty complex things. Turtles have extremly protective shells, but they didn't sit down one day and decide to make them. It seems that Lavos is considered to be on single organism, that is, everything is contected; the little it that's the final part you have to destroy is the seat of his power, yes, perhaps a seed from which he could regrow--but it didn't sit down and make the rest of Lavos anymore that a turtle sat down and made its shell.

Or at least, that's the prevailing veiwpoint, at least in-game. The truth is, anything regarding Lavos origin and true nature is pure speculation. We just don't know. Is he a bio-weapon for some highly advanced race? Is he a naturally evolved organism? is he an organism that tried to bioengineer its own development and had something go terribly wrong? We don't really know. That's one thing I like about Lavos--he's basically incomprehensible, like any real alien would be. Kudos to the Chrono team for that. (And then they have to go and ruin it with Starky... grumble grumble)