Theories and Questions on Lavos

[Jessica Ingmann]

Here's a few thoughts I had about everyone's favorite non-Marvel-based eater of planets.

Lavos, though showing almost no signs of sentience, is still the amalgimation(Woo!  $2.50 word!) of everything that will be, is, or ever was...  So, in theory, could Lavos had been reasoned with instead of beaten to death?  I think so, honestly.  Think about it...  In the footage played in 2,300 A.D., Lavos popped out of the planet then destroyed it.  But, when Chrono's gang when to 1,999 A.D. themselves and confronted Lavos, it delayed its attack!  Why did Lavos delay his attack on the planet when it sensed Chrono's gang?  Maybe it wanted to talk with them instead of fight, but when Chrono's gang showed hostilities, it instead put up the defense it did by mimicking creatures from all time periods!  My theory really isn't all that farfetched, given these facts.  But let's move away from reason for a moment...

What sense did it make to stew for 65,001,999 years under the Earth's core only to pop out and obliterate everything?  Is it one of those "salt the earth so nothing will ever grow here again" sort of things?  Did Lavos want to make sure nothing else could ever use the planet after it was through with it's cycle?  Was it lonely because no one(I'm guessing) came to see it emerge?  Was it tired of "playing God"?  It makes no sense at all to destroy something you helped make and leave...  Unless it was a "spite" sort of thing, I mean.  But that just raises further questions!  Who was Lavos spiting?  The Entity?  Itself?  Who knows...
Tying in with the above, Lavos left three Mini-Lavos...es...on Earth before it left.  But what are the Mini-Lavos...es...doing there?  Are they there to continue to shape and mold the ruined world which the original(as far a we know) Lavos left?  If so, why didn't they simply burrow underground like the original Lavos?  If not, are they just...there?

...where...exactly...was the rest of the world when all this Lavos nonsense was happening?  I mean, where were they when anything else was happening, like when Zeal existed, or when Maou took over the world?  I realize that at the time, there were probably no real plans for a "Chrono Trigger 2"(despite the US Programmers' Ending's cute little message, I mean), but seriously...  It's like the rest of the world just didn't care.  Now, I say this speaking as someone who never played Chrono Cross through...but does El Nido care about Lavos?  Did they take notice when Zeal crashed on their sister continent so many years back thanks to Lavos?  Did 1,999 A.D. El Nido take notice when Lavos destroyed everything in the Lavos Timeline?

There are so many questions unanswered in the world of "Chronos", as some call it...  Theorists like myself do our best to find the answers we can, but sometimes...even we need help...

I say this unto you in the name of the almighty Janitorial Mop.  Hail the Janitorial Mop, friend to all those taking the winding path of Kendo.  Amen.  :x

[Kyronea]

No, nothing in Chrono Cross is mentioned of anyone caring about Lavos, not even a demi-human cult worshipping Lavos like one would believe would still exist. As for why Lavos attacked in 1999, remember that when he attacked Zeal, he was basically defending himself. He defended against a people who were draining his energy. Humanity clearly showed Lavos that it was hostile towards this alien being. Once it realized the entire world was coming close to being able to destroy him again he popped out and destroyed them first so his spawn could be raised without interference.

Frankly, I too believe Lavos could have been reasoned with, especially considering how he pauses when Crono and the gang shows up. As you said, in the footage, once he pops out, everything goes boom almost instantly. But when Crono appears, he stops and lets them make a move. When they showed their hostile intentions, he fought back. The whole time, he was defending himself. I don't think Lavos was ever really malevolent. What if there was a way for his species to live without harming the planet or anything living upon it? It's certainly a question that should be answered, since he was obviously not the only member of his species. If there's a way, I think they should take it. The Lavosian species has as much a right to live as any other species, so if there's a way for them to coexist it should be utilized.

[AuraTwilight]

Lavos, though showing almost no signs of sentience, is still the amalgimation(Woo!  $2.50 word!) of everything that will be, is, or ever was...  So, in theory, could Lavos had been reasoned with instead of beaten to death?  I think so, honestly.  Think about it...  In the footage played in 2,300 A.D., Lavos popped out of the planet then destroyed it.  But, when Chrono's gang when to 1,999 A.D. themselves and confronted Lavos, it delayed its attack!  Why did Lavos delay his attack on the planet when it sensed Chrono's gang?  Maybe it wanted to talk with them instead of fight, but when Chrono's gang showed hostilities, it instead put up the defense it did by mimicking creatures from all time periods!  My theory really isn't all that farfetched, given these facts.  But let's move away from reason for a moment...

I think it just wanted to destroy these annoying little bugs buzzing in it's face before it got to work.

What sense did it make to stew for 65,001,999 years under the Earth's core only to pop out and obliterate everything?  Is it one of those "salt the earth so nothing will ever grow here again" sort of things?  Did Lavos want to make sure nothing else could ever use the planet after it was through with it's cycle?  Was it lonely because no one(I'm guessing) came to see it emerge?  Was it tired of "playing God"?  It makes no sense at all to destroy something you helped make and leave...  Unless it was a "spite" sort of thing, I mean.  But that just raises further questions!  Who was Lavos spiting?  The Entity?  Itself?  Who knows...
Tying in with the above, Lavos left three Mini-Lavos...es...on Earth before it left.  But what are the Mini-Lavos...es...doing there?  Are they there to continue to shape and mold the ruined world which the original(as far a we know) Lavos left?  If so, why didn't they simply burrow underground like the original Lavos?  If not, are they just...there?

He was harvesting energy and DNA so he could conceive Children, then wiped the planet clean to make a suitable enviornment for them. Then Lavos died, became death peak, and the Lavos Spawns were supposed to grow to maturity and climb Death Peak to use it as a launching port to find their own planet to infect.

...where...exactly...was the rest of the world when all this Lavos nonsense was happening?  I mean, where were they when anything else was happening, like when Zeal existed, or when Maou took over the world?  I realize that at the time, there were probably no real plans for a "Chrono Trigger 2"(despite the US Programmers' Ending's cute little message, I mean), but seriously...  It's like the rest of the world just didn't care.  Now, I say this speaking as someone who never played Chrono Cross through...but does El Nido care about Lavos?  Did they take notice when Zeal crashed on their sister continent so many years back thanks to Lavos?  Did 1,999 A.D. El Nido take notice when Lavos destroyed everything in the Lavos Timeline?

The whole world WAS involved. What we saw in Chrono Trigger was the whole world. And El Nido didn't exist until after Lavos was destroyed. It's this wierd time travel thing I'm not gonna get into in this thread. Anyway, most of the world wasn't even AWARE of Lavos's existence until it was too late.

What if there was a way for his species to live without harming the planet or anything living upon it? It's certainly a question that should be answered, since he was obviously not the only member of his species. If there's a way, I think they should take it. The Lavosian species has as much a right to live as any other species, so if there's a way for them to coexist it should be utilized.

Except there ISN'T. Harvesting planets is the entirety of the Lavos life cycle. There's no reasoning with a being that will destroy a world just for a single litter of children. Lavos is probably animal-like in intellect, and probably has no sapient mental faculties. Plus, the main point of the Chrono series seems to be Survival of the Fittest, and Crono's crew proves that Lavos does not deserve to exist if it keeps the Earth from prospering. Lavos is a disease.

[Kyronea]

No. I refuse to believe Lavos is not sentient, and I also refuse to believe his species is inherently destructive towards planets. How would a species like that evolve anyway? It makes no logical sense, nor does it square with what we know about biology. Humans can wreak destruction on a global scale but that is only due to our intelligence in developing the kind of weaponry necessary. We're not inherently destructive, and I don't think Lavos or his species is either. When Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 he was defending himself against what he percieved as a threat to his existance. And I honestly believe that given the chance to negotiate there would have been a peaceful solution to the problem.

[ZeaLitY]

Concerning the first stuff, that's just a matter of game mechanics. And yes, it probably needed to deal with Crono first.

Lavos presumably destroyed the planet, as others have stated, to wipe the human element out. It obliterated Zeal when it became a threat, and would presumably do the same to a civilization that would, after an eruption event, know about Lavos or have the technology to hinder it. Lavos is just reducing threats here. The spawn can grow uninterrupted if no humans are mounting a defense.

I'm with the Lavos-sentience group, or at least the transcendental-sentience group. Still, as GrayLensman often proposed, Lavos could consider humans the equivalent of a bacterial infection. There could be varying levels of sentience. At any rate, another theory suggests that the evolution of a spacefaring, planet-destroying animal is too remote, and that Lavos is actually some kind of bioengineered weapon of mass destruction or eugenics.

[AuraTwilight]

No. I refuse to believe Lavos is not sentient, and I also refuse to believe his species is inherently destructive towards planets. How would a species like that evolve anyway? It makes no logical sense, nor does it square with what we know about biology. Humans can wreak destruction on a global scale but that is only due to our intelligence in developing the kind of weaponry necessary. We're not inherently destructive, and I don't think Lavos or his species is either. When Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 he was defending himself against what he percieved as a threat to his existance. And I honestly believe that given the chance to negotiate there would have been a peaceful solution to the problem.

Prove it. The entire series depicts Lavos as a horrible, malevolent monster with no positive qualities whatsoever except for the argueably accidental mutation of the human race. Unless you can prove otherwise, that's what he is.

Anyway, my personal theory of Lavos's origin is that he was born from the Big Bang, and serves as a sort of Galactus figure.

[Kyronea]

Prove it. The entire series depicts Lavos as a horrible, malevolent monster with no positive qualities whatsoever except for the argueably accidental mutation of the human race. Unless you can prove otherwise, that's what he is.

Anyway, my personal theory of Lavos's origin is that he was born from the Big Bang, and serves as a sort of Galactus figure.

No, the series does not intend upon Lavos being a malevolent monster. It depends on Lavos performing the actions that he does, and the reasons for why he does what he does can and do vary depending upon interpretations. To paraphrase this site itself, the odds of a creature evolving that could command the level of magic that Lavos does, with the abilities to utilize DNA and absorb such DNA into itself in order to create a better being, to destroy entire civilizations, to manipulate a sentient being such as Queen Zeal for its purposes, to do all that it does is just so unlikely that I daresay it would be impossible. Lavos is sentient, probably of a sentience far above our own, to the point that it does not see us as sentient anymore than we see ants or bees as sentient, but this may be only because no one on the Chrono Trigger world actually tried to communicate with him.

Quite honestly, Lavos is demonized much like military forces involved in wars often demonize the other side to cope with the emotional pitfalls of war, only unlike those enemies Lavos isn't also human and thus it's much harder to see his sentience for what he is. The question is, again, is it possible for his species to coexist with our own, and I think it is. All he requires is energy, time, and DNA to mess around with. We could potentially find a way to give him the energy he needs without harming our planet. We could allow him to observe the DNA of the biosphere like he already did which was one of the few things he did that never harmed anything anyway. We could him the peace and safety to allow his spawn to grow without any harm coming to them. We could even provide a new home for those spawn somewhere so that they don't go to another planet and start destroying things again.

Admittedly, I may be a little idealistic here. It's equally possible that Lavos, while sentient, is also malevolent and enjoys destroying worlds. It's possible that he may only have the sentience of, say, a child, hence the whole revenge bit with the Time Devourer. I just like to think it would be possible to solve everything peacefully, because when you think about it, when considering what his species does to planets and every other life form in the universe, the only other option we'd have to consider for dealing with his species is genocide. And I don't think that should happen to any species, least of all a sentient one.

[Chrono'99]

but this may be only because no one on the Chrono Trigger world actually tried to communicate with him.

While no one in CT tried to communicate with Lavos, the party did communicate with the Devourer of Time in CC through the Frozen Flame. Well, it might not be such a pertinent detail since the TD isn't exactly Lavos... but I thought I'd mention this.

[mattbollenbach]

parˇaˇsite      [par-uh-sahyt]

–noun

1.  an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

Thus is Lavos.

[Kyronea]

While no one in CT tried to communicate with Lavos, the party did communicate with the Devourer of Time in CC through the Frozen Flame. Well, it might not be such a pertinent detail since the TD isn't exactly Lavos... but I thought I'd mention this.

I don't exactly recall any real communication in Chrono Cross, though I may be remembering incorrectly. Please refresh my memory as to the communication.

Mattbollenbach: Incorrect. Lavos never actually lives on or in another organism, unless you count the planet, and even that's a stretch. What's more, considering the kind of energy it draws out from the planet, I feel comfortable in saying there is a probable artificial substitute, as the energy of a planet may simply be the most convenient way of gaining what it needs, rather than the only way. Much like we have an enormous number of different possible foods we can eat.

[Chrono'99]

While no one in CT tried to communicate with Lavos, the party did communicate with the Devourer of Time in CC through the Frozen Flame. Well, it might not be such a pertinent detail since the TD isn't exactly Lavos... but I thought I'd mention this.

I don't exactly recall any real communication in Chrono Cross, though I may be remembering incorrectly. Please refresh my memory as to the communication.

At the top of Terra Tower, Lavos speaks to the party leader through the Frozen Flame. He uses telepathy so we only hear the party leader's reaction to it (so of course if the leader is Serge we don't read anything). You can see all the quotes by searching [Frozen Flame Lines] in the script.

[Kyronea]

At the top of Terra Tower, Lavos speaks to the party leader through the Frozen Flame. He uses telepathy so we only hear the party leader's reaction to it (so of course if the leader is Serge we don't read anything). You can see all the quotes by searching [Frozen Flame Lines] in the script.

Really? Huh. Never knew that. Let me take a look at these lines here...

Well, wait. It looks to me like it's just the Frozen Flame itself trying to tempt them into power or something, judging by most of these lines. The only thing that suggests otherwise is Kid's line about Zeal...hmm...then again, it could just be the Time Devourer trying to stop them from interfering in its existence by reaching out to them through the Flame, much like it once reached out to Zeal. In fact, I daresay that's exactly what this is. Survival mechanism coming into play again, from what I can see.

[ZeaLitY]

The TD was consumed with hatred by that point, and so was Schala. Who knows what the Frozen Flame would say if connected with a normal Lavos. The only other recorded use we know of is the mutation of early humans into magic-capable humans in 3000000 B.C.

[mattbollenbach]

To quote Belthasar, from the original Japanese...

 Lavos is an enormous parasite that nests in the planet itself.

[Jessica Ingmann]

...huh.  Well...if Belthesar/Hash said that...  ...then I guess Lavos isn't any more sentient than a dog or a cat would be...  And thus, couldn't be reasoned with.  But still...I don't understand how destroying the world would make ideal living conditions for its Mini-Lavos spawn.