A Planet Cannot Recover After a Lavoid Attack

[cronopolis]

You propose a challenge, I propose we just stick to thinking our own opinion's and interpretations are correct, aside from that, I dont have enough indepth knowledge to conquer your challenge, so I submit

[Kyronea]

As a bit of friendly advice, I do suggest that, in the future, you ensure you can back up a claim before you make it. It really helps you avoid these kind of embarrasing situations.

[cronopolis]

"Pride comes before the fall" and I've already landed on my face along time ago I have no care or concern for honor or pride so my composure is invincible, and I didn't say I accept your challenge, I merely said I submit seeing as how I've only played 5 ff titles in all, I'm selective in my choice of games oh and thanks for the "friendly" advice.

[Kyronea]

Oh, I was quite serious about the advice being friendly, though it seems I once again failed to properly word my statements...for that I apologize.

I do fail to understand what Final Fantasy games have to do with any of this...I thought we were speaking of the Planet's ability to create Gates and the fact that the Planet could not survive after Lavos' attack.

[Zaperking]

On the note of Final Fantasy:

Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.

Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.

In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.

Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-
BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.

[Kyronea]

On the note of Final Fantasy:

Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.

Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.

Irrelevant.

In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.

Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-
BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.

Once again I question why they would stress that the Planet is dying in the Fiona's Forest scene if it were actually not dying. Seeing one's life flash by is typical of true deaths--at least in fiction--and as such we should take it to mean exactly what it is: by 2300 A.D., the Planet is dead, or so close to dead it makes no difference. If there is any remaining energy, that's what the Lavos Spawns would be feeding upon.

It goes against the whole point of the game. If the Planet would recover, why bother creating the Heroes of Time? Why risk all of that temporal chaos if the Planet would, in fact, live? The only potential gain if the Planet would still live is humanity surviving, and considering what humanity tends to do to its environs, that might not be the most pleasant thing. Consider the potential risks and benefits. You have interference in over 65,000,000 years of the Planet's lifespan via time travel which could cause numerous problems anywhere along that line, and the one benefit--if the Planet would recover--is humanity's survival. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it.

We have no evidence that the Planet would recover apart from the one line by the Mother Brain, which is a corrupted computer program, versus the bevy of evidence for its death. Once again, I question why anyone would continue to pursue this matter.

I now invoke Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation with the largest amount of evidence towards it is the most likely. The Planet's Death has far more evidence than does its survival, and it is simpler, and thus is most likely.

[Infinitus]

Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldnīt be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, itīs better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.

[Kyronea]

Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldnīt be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, itīs better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.

Now that's actually a neat suggestion. I'm not sure I'd agree with the Mother Brain's assessment, as either way it is still incorrect, but I definitely like this over a full recovery, as it seems a bit more poetic.

Still, it is irrelevant, as the Mother Brain, whatever she may have meant, is wrong.

[Zaperking]

Maybe Mother Brain meant that the planet would be able to recover, but that it wouldnīt be as "healthy" as it was before. For example, if a person had an accident, he or she may ble able to recover, but probably will have some sort of deficiency. So, itīs better to prevent the Planet from being destroyed at all instead of letting it survive with a scar, or something like that.

Still, it is irrelevant, as the Mother Brain, whatever she may have meant, is wrong.

Game Characters have more meaning and influence then what you say. I don't remember you being plot line creator :/
Remember, anything stated in a game, such as a prophecy, or foreshadowing WILL come true, unless the person is stated to be a lying/liar/cheater/scammer.

Irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant when Squaresoft copies motifs and ideas from all of its games, and just reworks them?

Once again I question why they would stress that the Planet is dying in the Fiona's Forest scene if it were actually not dying. Seeing one's life flash by is typical of true deaths--at least in fiction--and as such we should take it to mean exactly what it is: by 2300 A.D., the Planet is dead, or so close to dead it makes no difference. If there is any remaining energy, that's what the Lavos Spawns would be feeding upon.

It goes against the whole point of the game. If the Planet would recover, why bother creating the Heroes of Time? Why risk all of that temporal chaos if the Planet would, in fact, live? The only potential gain if the Planet would still live is humanity surviving, and considering what humanity tends to do to its environs, that might not be the most pleasant thing. Consider the potential risks and benefits. You have interference in over 65,000,000 years of the Planet's lifespan via time travel which could cause numerous problems anywhere along that line, and the one benefit--if the Planet would recover--is humanity's survival. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it.

We have no evidence that the Planet would recover apart from the one line by the Mother Brain, which is a corrupted computer program, versus the bevy of evidence for its death. Once again, I question why anyone would continue to pursue this matter.

I now invoke Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation with the largest amount of evidence towards it is the most likely. The Planet's Death has far more evidence than does its survival, and it is simpler, and thus is most likely.

Because Fiona's forest isn't required, it's not canon. Probably just like getting Magus isn't exactly canon, otherwise he'd be in the group picture, and not in the antagonist scenes.

Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.

Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.

Moreover, we even see the seedling grow in the future. If the people had no future, then the seedling wouldn't grow. Heck, the people themselves said that they'd try and bring about a new future. The only problem was that Mother Brain wanted to create a new world from the ruins.

And don't forget that CC stressed the fact that changing the future wasn't necessarily the grand scheme of things as they should have been done. The people in the future would have continued to live and live on, but it was Crono's interference that stopped them from ever being born, just because they didn't want Lavos to ever awaken.

And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-

[Kyronea]

Game Characters have more meaning and influence then what you say. I don't remember you being plot line creator :/
Remember, anything stated in a game, such as a prophecy, or foreshadowing WILL come true, unless the person is stated to be a lying/liar/cheater/scammer.

And again, that one line is countered by a large deal of evidence.

How is it irrelevant when Squaresoft copies motifs and ideas from all of its games, and just reworks them?

Because this is Chrono Trigger. If you're going to argue what occurs, you support it with evidence in the game itself. Games made by the same people, unless directly referenced as being part of the plot of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, are irrelevant.

Because Fiona's forest isn't required, it's not canon. Probably just like getting Magus isn't exactly canon, otherwise he'd be in the group picture, and not in the antagonist scenes.

And if you do not visit Fiona's Forest and see that cutscene you will see a different, slightly smaller cutscene during the main ending that states the same thing only more succintly, as I already pointed out. Pay attention, please.

As for Magus: spoiler reasons. Furthermore, Magus surviving IS canon, as seen in Lucca's letter in Chrono Cross. She mentions Janus, and why would she do that if Magus did not survive? Hell, if he wasn't supposed to survive, why give the player the chance to recruit him? The sheer fact that he is recruitable suggests that is more likely to be canon than not.

Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.

Why is this required? The Gates are not sustained by the Planet, merely created by the Planet. Furthermore, Gaspar says that the player can always use a Gate to access the End of Time once they have been through it, suggesting that the End of Time is disconnected from the normal flow of time rather than truly being the End of all Time, which is ridiculous because then nothing could happen in the End of Time...everything would either happen at once or be frozen.

Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.

She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.

Moreover, we even see the seedling grow in the future. If the people had no future, then the seedling wouldn't grow. Heck, the people themselves said that they'd try and bring about a new future. The only problem was that Mother Brain wanted to create a new world from the ruins.

I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.

And don't forget that CC stressed the fact that changing the future wasn't necessarily the grand scheme of things as they should have been done. The people in the future would have continued to live and live on, but it was Crono's interference that stopped them from ever being born, just because they didn't want Lavos to ever awaken.

Are you talking about Lucca's fear of reprisal from the futures they sent to the DBT? Once the future was changed and Lavos did not destroy the world, those people never existed. They wouldn't have a chance to do anything. If there was a version of them in the new future, they were much happier, safer, and lived a far better life than they would in the ruined 2300 A.D., presuming they could survive much further beyond then.

And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-

Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.

[Mystic Frog King]

Just like at the end of FF6, the planet in the destroyed future might still recover. I mean it's a typical Squaresoft thing to make it that the planet is on the brink of destruction, or if it gets destroyed, it will heal again.

Like in FF6, even though the world was unbalanced and distorted, once Kefka was destroyed, it started to heal.
In FF7, even though Meteor hit, the planet still survived.

In Chrono Trigger, because Lavos already left the planet, or died, or what ever, the planet should recover over a long time. Mother Brain, in a sense, foreshadows this. Maybe she plans to destroy the lavoids too. Remember, Mother Brain is almost the same as FATE. Both know that humans are the progency of Lavos. If mother brain hates humans, she'll probably take care of the lavoids.

Also, take note that there would be no point in Lavos sucking all that energy just to make lavoids that would die because the planet that they were born on is dead -.-

BTW, even in 1999, the planet is green -.- Lavos' attack probably just singed the top of the earth.

No. Kefka attempted to destroy it at the end: previously it was just ruined world, akin to 2300 AD. If Kefka has continued to rule, then the planet would die. But when he went it was restored. But I don't think the situation there was anywhere near as dire as that in CT.

Meteor didn't make an impact. It destroyed Midgar, but Holy and the Lifestream prevented it from making a real impact. The world is fine and dandy in Advent Children.

But Mother Brain is insane. And nothing compared to Lavos. Also of note is that Belthasar, the creator of FATE sees the need to help the quest to save the planet.

The Lavos spawns are already climbing up Death Peak; the 'lift off' point. They don't plan to stay very long.

He hadn't obliterated the place yet. If merely coming to the surface would ruin the world, then the CT party would be killed the moment they reach 1999.

Furthermore, if the planet was dying, and it traversed all of time and space, then it would be dead the moment Lavos did his attack. And since Crono and co can go to the End of Time and then still go back to the past, the planet probably lived up to the end of time -.- Otherwise then we'd have issues.

Why is this required? The Gates are not sustained by the Planet, merely created by the Planet. Furthermore, Gaspar says that the player can always use a Gate to access the End of Time once they have been through it, suggesting that the End of Time is disconnected from the normal flow of time rather than truly being the End of all Time, which is ridiculous because then nothing could happen in the End of Time...everything would either happen at once or be frozen.

Secondly, Mother Brain isn't "corrupt". Mother Brain is stated by the game to have gone rouge, as in it defied it's original programmed orders, and does what it wants. This might be due to its high grade AI.

She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.

And you also didn't answer why Lavos would leave his spawn on a dead planet, if they need energy to mature and leave -.-

Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.

Also of note is that we can't see the planet in tEoT, so it's not definite whether it survived or not.

It really is a moot point, considering true Artificial intelligence hasn't been developed yet. Similar to my point on Tomatoes and racism in that 'Hello' topic. As a race, we have yet to create Artificial Intelligence or witness Alien AI, so speculation on this point is futile.

Just as I said above.

[evirus]

minus my personal baises heres the points i was trying to make;
1. just because we are given an answere to one question (what created the gates) dosn't mean we should not presue further questions(how where the gates made? why specifically where they made?) a point was made earlier as to what the motivation of the entity sending the characters through time was, if it was going to recover anyway, is it specifically mentioned that the entity was trying to change the past intentionally, or was the groups actions an unforseen resualt of the entity recalling its past? also did the entity truthfully know it was going to die or could it just have assumed it was going to die?

2. on the issue of weather or not the planet could recover, im reminded of the show "mystery diagnosis" on the discovery health channel, each "episode" has a vary specific flow; person gets sick, person looks for advice, doctor gives treatments, person gets sicker, person starts to accept their own mortality, new doctor finds real cause of sickness, person gets better. thats what could have happened in CT in regards to the "entity" recalling it's past, it could have been at the stage of "accepted mortality".

on the issue of humans being harmful to the entity(defined as nature) this could only be partially so, we see the people of the ruined future try to grow a plant for example, humans could be as much an enemy to nature(entity) as they are to chickens and cows, sure we may slaughter and exploit them for our own benifit but we are still dependent on their survival. so in regards to the entity using humans to help itself it may just be a case of "the ends justify the means" (ends:entity's survival, means: using an exploitative or abusive aquantence)

[Kyronea]

minus my personal baises heres the points i was trying to make;
1. just because we are given an answere to one question (what created the gates) dosn't mean we should not presue further questions

I agree. Questions and answers are the basis of understanding.

(how where the gates made? why specifically where they made?) a point was made earlier as to what the motivation of the entity sending the characters through time was, if it was going to recover anyway, is it specifically mentioned that the entity was trying to change the past intentionally, or was the groups actions an unforseen resualt of the entity recalling its past? also did the entity truthfully know it was going to die or could it just have assumed it was going to die?

This is where the situation is unclear. Since we've established the Planet IS dying and will not survive, it is reasonable to presume the Gates were intentional, but I hesitate on making a definitive judgement here without more evidence, though I do support the idea that the Gates were intentional.

2. on the issue of weather or not the planet could recover, im reminded of the show "mystery diagnosis" on the discovery health channel, each "episode" has a vary specific flow; person gets sick, person looks for advice, doctor gives treatments, person gets sicker, person starts to accept their own mortality, new doctor finds real cause of sickness, person gets better. thats what could have happened in CT in regards to the "entity" recalling it's past, it could have been at the stage of "accepted mortality".

Irrelevant. There is nothing to suggest any of this has occurred or will occur.

on the issue of humans being harmful to the entity(defined as nature) this could only be partially so, we see the people of the ruined future try to grow a plant for example,

For their own survival, in an attempt to feed themselves, not to care for the Planet.

humans could be as much an enemy to nature(entity) as they are to chickens and cows, sure we may slaughter and exploit them for our own benifit but we are still dependent on their survival. so in regards to the entity using humans to help itself it may just be a case of "the ends justify the means" (ends:entity's survival, means: using an exploitative or abusive aquantence)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.  Are you agreeing that the Planet did in fact create the Gates intentionally because it was dying and thus used humanity to ensure its survival through the destruction of Lavos?

But Mother Brain is insane. And nothing compared to Lavos. Also of note is that Belthasar, the creator of FATE sees the need to help the quest to save the planet.

The Lavos spawns are already climbing up Death Peak; the 'lift off' point. They don't plan to stay very long.

He hadn't obliterated the place yet. If merely coming to the surface would ruin the world, then the CT party would be killed the moment they reach 1999.

Exactly.

Also of note is that we can't see the planet in tEoT, so it's not definite whether it survived or not.

A good point you have there. We really don't know what the End of Time is...it seems to simply be a dimensional void of some sort.

It really is a moot point, considering true Artificial intelligence hasn't been developed yet. Similar to my point on Tomatoes and racism in that 'Hello' topic. As a race, we have yet to create Artificial Intelligence or witness Alien AI, so speculation on this point is futile.

I am speculating based on what information I have about A.I.s in the Chronoverse and what my own actions in the situation would be, nothing more.

[Zaperking]

She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.

I never said that, however, you're wrong about the Day of Lavos causing it. The Mother Brain series is just prone to becoming rogue, as suggested by CC. In CC, Belthasar built FATE off a Mother Brain design. FATE was supposed to protect humanity, yet it later decided that it wanted to become a God, or a new creature, hence it also went rogue. And supposedly, Belthasar had installed a protection method to control FATE from the problem that Mother Brain faced, sadly it still failed (this is from the discrepancy in the game that stated that Belthasar installed the Prometheus Circuit in FATE to stop it from getting the flame, whilst Lucca is also stated to have created a Prometheus Circuit to stop the Mother Brain series from going rogue).
So basically, Mother Brain isn't crazy, but has advanced so much that she does what she wants/knows/analyzes and uses logic with.

I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.

It's true, they're hungry, but they're still sustained. As for the seed, I always thought that it was Melchior's seed and that according to the game, it has the power to heal the world. So even though it may take time, it's giving the people a hope to live, and in time, it should save the world again.

Are you talking about Lucca's fear of reprisal from the futures they sent to the DBT? Once the future was changed and Lavos did not destroy the world, those people never existed. They wouldn't have a chance to do anything. If there was a version of them in the new future, they were much happier, safer, and lived a far better life than they would in the ruined 2300 A.D., presuming they could survive much further beyond then.

True, but Lucca doesn't know and cannot guarantee that the people will be born. People who died in 1999AD may now have kids with people that they never would have, hence the descendants would change.

Yes I did. I said the Planet was still dying by 2300 A.D. Lavos himself did not finish off the Planet: the Lavos Spawn did. Since Death Peak is the likely point of eruption by Lavos, it is the best place for the Spawn to inhabit so they can suck the remaining energy. Once they finish and blast off into space, the Planet would be truly dead.

My bad.
However, if the planet is still alive, Mother Brain's plan can still be completed if she exterminates the Lavos Spawn, and then lets the planet recover for her dream.

[Mystic Frog King]

She is noted as the Mother Brain of the R-Y Series Factory. This suggests she is, at most, an A.I. designed to oversee the construction and programming of the robots produced there. There is no reason to suspect something was lying wait in her programming that would cause her to be so bloodthirsty towards organic life; safeguards would be in place to prevent that kind of thing. I know that if I were to program that kind of complex A.I. I'd be damned sure to include safeguards, a sense of morality, and other programming to ensure she wouldn't go crazy. The events of the Day of Lavos corrupted her programming, pure and simple.

I never said that, however, you're wrong about the Day of Lavos causing it. The Mother Brain series is just prone to becoming rogue, as suggested by CC. In CC, Belthasar built FATE off a Mother Brain design. FATE was supposed to protect humanity, yet it later decided that it wanted to become a God, or a new creature, hence it also went rogue. And supposedly, Belthasar had installed a protection method to control FATE from the problem that Mother Brain faced, sadly it still failed (this is from the discrepancy in the game that stated that Belthasar installed the Prometheus Circuit in FATE to stop it from getting the flame, whilst Lucca is also stated to have created a Prometheus Circuit to stop the Mother Brain series from going rogue).
So basically, Mother Brain isn't crazy, but has advanced so much that she does what she wants/knows/analyzes and uses logic with.

I'll give you something of this, but that one seedling would not support a population. Even taking into account the gameplay necessary reduction in numbers, human population is not sustainable by 2300 A.D. They're barely hanging on as it is with the Enetron.

It's true, they're hungry, but they're still sustained. As for the seed, I always thought that it was Melchior's seed and that according to the game, it has the power to heal the world. So even though it may take time, it's giving the people a hope to live, and in time, it should save the world again.

Wha..? How could Lucca built a Prometheus circuit? She had nothing to do with the creation of the Mother Brain series, as far as we know. And Mother Brain was, quite simply, crazy. Actually, corrupt is a better word to describe her right now.

No, a single tree could not save the world. Later generations of trees (they multiply, see...) could, maybe, but I think the situation was already too bad for that.