A Planet Cannot Recover After a Lavoid Attack

[Chrono'99]

My opinion is still that we may be extrapolating too much on that quote. Woolsey can translate sentences correctly, sometimes.

[Kyronea]

If I may interrupt, I'd like to give you Kyronea, the award for the worlds longest known post, and the award for most stubborn mule <jk>

You have much to learn about the internet...if you wish to see truly intense discussion, I point you to NationStates General:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227

Kyronea, this is pretty much opinion. Your interpretation of the vague clues the game gives. Most things we base our opinions on is hinted at, and not directly stated.That's why there are so many theories on anything...I leave you with this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YG1-B1yqu4M

That statement means absolutely nothing. If it is opinion, try to use evidence to prove it incorrect. As of right now you are simply stating you feel it is wrong, and while you are entitlted to that opinion, that will not convince anyone.

My opinion is still that we may be extrapolating too much on that quote. Woolsey can translate sentences correctly, sometimes.

You're referring to the Mother Brain quote? If so, you are entirely correct...Zaperking's whole argument is based on this one quote, and as I've said so many times over the course of this thread, that quote cannot be trusted because of who said it and the circumstances of why she said it.

If you're not referring to that quote, then I am confused as to what precisely you mean.

[Mr. Molecule]

Ok, Kyronea, so the planet can't recover from Lavos.  Which makes him not just a parasite, but a deadly one. However, I'm not sure how this can realy mesh with the idea that the planet and Lavos can co-exist--which you seem to propose in the "Theories and Observations on Lavos" thread. After all, it's not just the 1999 attack that did the planet in--it's the constant leeching of the planet's energy by Lavos that sealed the deal. Lavos and the planet exist on roughly the same scale on terms of energy needs/abilities, it seems--as evidenced, for example, by the dueling cities in Cross. Thus, it seems to me inevitable that a planet will be destroyed by Lavos.

What I think I'm really trying to do here is expand the discussion in this thread--not just on the magnitude, but the nature of a Lavoid attack. Is it a one time thing, or is it continuous?

Note that the weakness of my energy-sucking theory is that the planet's nice and green right up until the Lavos attack.

[Kyronea]

Ok, Kyronea, so the planet can't recover from Lavos.  Which makes him not just a parasite, but a deadly one.

With the way his species currently lives and what evidence we see from the games, quite yes.

However, I'm not sure how this can realy mesh with the idea that the planet and Lavos can co-exist--which you seem to propose in the "Theories and Observations on Lavos" thread. After all, it's not just the 1999 attack that did the planet in--it's the constant leeching of the planet's energy by Lavos that sealed the deal. Lavos and the planet exist on roughly the same scale on terms of energy needs/abilities, it seems--as evidenced, for example, by the dueling cities in Cross. Thus, it seems to me inevitable that a planet will be destroyed by Lavos.

I am fully aware of this. I proposed that with the idea in mind that a Lavoid would be living harmoniously with the Planet, in a symbiotic rather than parasitical relationship, which I still believe is possible. Lavos probably never would, but that does not mean other Lavoids can't. They are sentient species after all, and if there is a way for them to coexist with other species, then we ought to find it. The only other option is genocide.

What I think I'm really trying to do here is expand the discussion in this thread--not just on the magnitude, but the nature of a Lavoid attack. Is it a one time thing, or is it continuous?

Note that the weakness of my energy-sucking theory is that the planet's nice and green right up until the Lavos attack.

It is a continous drain of energy while the Lavoid grows and monitors DNA of creatures over the course of the Planet's history. It is also a slow drain...I point out that the idea is not to kill the Planet, but to only take what the Lavoid needs until it has gained the DNA and integrated it into itself, at which point it has no need for the Planet anymore and attacks. That attack does the main damage and the spawn subsequently drain all of the remaining energy. This is why the Planet can still appear green and undamaged(though it is doubtful we are getting a truly accurate picture with that 1999 A.D. map) up to the point of the full on attack.

Think of the drain of energy by the Lavoid as a sort of charging cycle, followed by a release of energy and then spawning, from which point the spawns drain all of the remaining energy. It's one long continous cycle, though specific events can be pinpointed as the true cause of the demise of the Planet. Up till the actual strike, the Planet, while no doubt injured and weakened, will definitely be able to survive, as evidenced by its survival after Lavos is destroyed. It is the actual Day of Lavos-esque attack that deals the fatal blow, followed by the drain of energy by the spawn.

Still, I say that a Planet cannot survive a Lavoid attack, because in a normal attack there would be no Heroes of Time to save the Planet. What made the Chronoverse Planet different in this aspect is unknown.

[Chrono'99]

Still, I say that a Planet cannot survive a Lavoid attack, because in a normal attack there would be no Heroes of Time to save the Planet. What made the Chronoverse Planet different in this aspect is unknown.

In Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame splintering from Lavos' shell was possibly an accidental occurence. The mutation of prehistoric humans into modern, corrupted, magic-using humans could very well be a totally accidental and unwanted event for Lavos, and one that normally doesn't happen in other Lavoid life cycles.

[Kyronea]

n Chrono Cross, the Frozen Flame splintering from Lavos' shell was possibly an accidental occurence The mutation of prehistoric humans into modern, corrupted, magic-using humans could very well be a totally accidental and unwanted event for Lavos, and one that normally doesn't happen in other Lavoid life cycles.

Possibly, though we must take into account that there was a sentient species already present upon the Chrono Planet when Lavos fell...but then Lavos fell directly upon their central base of operations, almost as if he intentionally wiped them out.

I'm going to have to agree with you...a sentient species with the understanding and capability of humans would be a disaster for any Lavoid, at least if it is to prevent time traveling used to stop it from destroying a Planet, or use some other method to stop a Lavoid. This was why, after all, Lavos attacked in 1999 when he did, in order to destroy the last remaining threat. He could not stop the Heroes of Time, but he could stop those trapped in the normal flow of time from stopping him.

Still, one has to wonder where a Lavoid would get their new DNA from if they could not harvest it from a sentient species...but then it is also possible that Lavos simply took advantage of the unfortunate situation and made the best of it with his own DNA gathering...for all we know DNA gathering may actually be far more limited in a normal Lavoid life cycle.

[Mr. Molecule]

There were actually two sentient species on the Chrono planet when Lavos fell. Early Humans weren't as evolved as later ones, but they're definately not dumb beasts.

I thought Lavoids took DNA from all the species on the planet, and recombined it into the most effective configuration? So without sentient species, they'd do the same thing.

Lavos's greatest strength, however, is really (this will sound weird) in hits subtlty. Really. There were a LOT of powers on the planet that could've done it in, at least if you go by gameplay mechanics--just throw together a few of the later bosses. Presumably, the highly-technically capable world of 1999 probably could've gotten group together to fight it, if it'd seen it coming. Sure, he has the power to destroy the world, but there's no evidence he can launch that sort of attack more than once every, say, 14,000 years. So he has to remain very low key, and does, so no one besides the Planet knows he's there. In a way, it comes down to a battle of wits between him and the planet. Maybe other planets aren't so smart.

Here's another insane theory I just thought of. It's been speculated that, even adjusting for RPG scaling, the world of Chrono is incredibly small. Perhaps Chrono's world has high density and tiny circumfrence. If this is so, perhaps Lavoids are evolved to be less noicable parasite on larger planets--but on one of the Chrono Planet's scale, it can't help but be a destroyer. Hmmm...

[Kyronea]

There were actually two sentient species on the Chrono planet when Lavos fell. Early Humans weren't as evolved as later ones, but they're definately not dumb beasts.

True, true...I meant in the sense of a species being capable of stopping Lavos if necessary. Early humans, while sentient, were not exactly capable of doing anything to stop Lavos. They could barely fight the Reptites effectively.

I thought Lavoids took DNA from all the species on the planet, and recombined it into the most effective configuration? So without sentient species, they'd do the same thing.

Aye, also true. Solves that little tiny problem, then.

Lavos's greatest strength, however, is really (this will sound weird) in hits subtlty. Really. There were a LOT of powers on the planet that could've done it in, at least if you go by gameplay mechanics--just throw together a few of the later bosses

And I wouldn't go by game mechanics on this one....besides, as I recall most of those later bosses served him in one fashion or another.

Presumably, the highly-technically capable world of 1999 probably could've gotten group together to fight it, if it'd seen it coming.

He would. Remember, he lives in a Pocket Dimension and experiences a separate flow of time from the normal flow. As such he can monitor the flow of time and determine the proper time to strike.

Sure, he has the power to destroy the world, but there's no evidence he can launch that sort of attack more than once every, say, 14,000 years

There's no evidence that he can't, either...his power is not truly quantified in this manner.

So he has to remain very low key, and does, so no one besides the Planet knows he's there.

Untrue. The Kingdom of Zeal found him quite easily, remember. Presumeably those in 1999 were close technologically to achieving that which Zeal did magically: identifying he was there. Only, unlike Zeal, they would not be foolish enough to try and utilize him as a power source and would probably attack instead, which is why he attacked when he did.

In a way, it comes down to a battle of wits between him and the planet. Maybe other planets aren't so smart.

Now that's something I'll agree with entirely.

Here's another insane theory I just thought of. It's been speculated that, even adjusting for RPG scaling, the world of Chrono is incredibly small. Perhaps Chrono's world has high density and tiny circumfrence. If this is so, perhaps Lavoids are evolved to be less noicable parasite on larger planets--but on one of the Chrono Planet's scale, it can't help but be a destroyer. Hmmm...

Problem is, we have no idea if the Chrono Planet truly is this, or if RPG scaling was ignored. Remember, in most other Japanese RPGs the world is frightfully unpopulated...worlds with much larger world maps such as Final Fantasy VII only have a few towns scattered across whole continents. One must simply ignore this and presume that in the reality of the situation the world is the size of our own--as there is no true evidence in the actual game to say otherwise apart from the scaling--and that there are many more people than we see. I attempted to theorize something close to this---though I was stating that Zenan, Choras, and Medina were part of a large island chain rather than whole continents--but upon closer examination of the game evidence I realized that was completely and totally wrong.

[Zaperking]

Untrue. The Kingdom of Zeal found him quite easily, remember. Presumeably those in 1999 were close technologically to achieving that which Zeal did magically: identifying he was there. Only, unlike Zeal, they would not be foolish enough to try and utilize him as a power source and would probably attack instead, which is why he attacked when he did.

Zeal found Lavos probably with the help of the Flame (subtle evidence, helped along with the fact that the Flame has been existing, and no doubt about it being in the Mammon Machine), and the help of the Gurus. Heck, when we arrive in Zeal, it seems like they only recently found the true source of his energy, and decided to bring the Mammon Machine closer to drain more power.

As for 199AD, when did it ever state that they were becoming technologically advanced to Zeal as it was in magic? Even then, nobody knew about Lavos. They just has either Land monitors, or satellites that picked up Lavos' movement at the very end. We know from CC that there was an Lithosphere report that recorded the attack on the Day of Lavos. Other than that, even Chronopolis can't prove that Lavos ever truely existed besides the fact that other time lines show that he lived. The whole fact that Chronopolis exists means that Lavos was destroyed, but to them it doesn't matter if there was a different time line after 1999AD. To confirm their speculations, Lavos has to exist now.

And as for attacking Lavos, that would be the most foolish thing of all. Zeal believed that they could subdue Lavos and use it's energy, not realizing that it was still finite. However, it kind of came true as Lavos didn't oppose the Queen, or kill her, as he killed Crono.
Heck, maybe the Queen intended for Zeal to be destroyed, so Lavos would appear and she could be with him.
So yeah, even if the humans had known about Lavos, theres not much they could have done. Best that they'd just go into outer space and come back later, or colonize another planet if they had that capability.

[Chrono'99]

Even then, nobody knew about Lavos.

The Arris Director knew.

[Kyronea]

Zeal found Lavos probably with the help of the Flame (subtle evidence, helped along with the fact that the Flame has been existing, and no doubt about it being in the Mammon Machine), and the help of the Gurus. Heck, when we arrive in Zeal, it seems like they only recently found the true source of his energy, and decided to bring the Mammon Machine closer to drain more power.

Aye, within the last ten or so years. I'm not saying it was EASY easy, but they found Lavos more easily than anyone else could have.

As for 199AD, when did it ever state that they were becoming technologically advanced to Zeal as it was in magic? Even then, nobody knew about Lavos. They just has either Land monitors, or satellites that picked up Lavos' movement at the very end. We know from CC that there was an Lithosphere report that recorded the attack on the Day of Lavos. Other than that, even Chronopolis can't prove that Lavos ever truely existed besides the fact that other time lines show that he lived. The whole fact that Chronopolis exists means that Lavos was destroyed, but to them it doesn't matter if there was a different time line after 1999AD. To confirm their speculations, Lavos has to exist now.

Well, you're right...it never stated anywhere that 1999 A.D. was as close technologically as Zeal was magically. I am extrapolating from the fact that Lavos decided to attack in 1999 and from what we see of the technology. We know Lavos perceived Zeal as a threat and took it down, so any society that was attacked by Lavos would have to be at a similiar power level technologically as Zeal was magically.

As for knowing about Lavos? The Arris Directer knew.

And as for attacking Lavos, that would be the most foolish thing of all.

Oh? Crono and the gang did just that, and as I recall, they won.

Zeal believed that they could subdue Lavos and use it's energy, not realizing that it was still finite.

They probably didn't fully understand what Lavos was when they first discovered it...just that Lavos was an incredible potential source of power. They started tapping into it and discovered more as they built the Ocean Palace. We don't know the full extent of their knowledge, unfortunately...while Belthesar knew quite a bit, he had also been in the future for some time and might have gained his knowledge from studying Lavos in that time period.

However, it kind of came true as Lavos didn't oppose the Queen, or kill her, as he killed Crono.

No, he used the Queen for his own purposes. She perceived herself as sort of a puppet or concubine, as evidenced by the way she referred to herself in the Black Omen in the original Japanese script. Or at least that's what KWhazit said...I can't read Japanese worth anything.

Heck, maybe the Queen intended for Zeal to be destroyed, so Lavos would appear and she could be with him.

Doubtful at best...Queen Zeal is not a fool and obviously was a good person before Lavos corrupted her. It is far more likely that she just didn't give a damn when Zeal was destroyed...Lavos took advantage of her to set up a way of empowering himself. We know the Black Omen gives him more power somehow...perhaps to focus it. We also know there was no Omen in the original Lavos timeline.

So I propose that the Queen was used more in the Keystone timeline than in the Lavos timeline so Lavos could set up a way of empowering himself even more to defend himself against the Heroes of Time. We know he is not stupid, and that he would notice they were bounding about through time seeking his demise. As such he would set up a way to defend himself or otherwise empower himself further. I suggest that way is the Black Omen, because otherwise the Omen just doesn't make much sense. It's not as if Lavos needed the Omen to destroy the world, since he was easily capable of doing so before then.

So yeah, even if the humans had known about Lavos, theres not much they could have done. Best that they'd just go into outer space and come back later, or colonize another planet if they had that capability.

We don't know what kind of military resources were at their fingertips, but sadly I have to agree with you...we know our own world would have no chance against Lavos at this time, given what we know of him. The attack is also super fast, occurring over just a few minutes, so we'd have no time to mount a defense.

[Chrono'99]

So I propose that the Queen was used more in the Keystone timeline than in the Lavos timeline so Lavos could set up a way of empowering himself even more to defend himself against the Heroes of Time. We know he is not stupid, and that he would notice they were bounding about through time seeking his demise. As such he would set up a way to defend himself or otherwise empower himself further. I suggest that way is the Black Omen, because otherwise the Omen just doesn't make much sense. It's not as if Lavos needed the Omen to destroy the world, since he was easily capable of doing so before then.

While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident. According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.

[Kyronea]

While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident. According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.

Ah, yes, that theory...well, while we have no real evidence the Frozen Flame was actually the central core of the Mammon Machine(apart from Radical Dreamers which was rendered non-canon, though the fact that it does occur in an alternate universe suggests that it is possible--and potentially likely, given the simularities between the universes--that the Frozen Flame was thus the core of the Keystone Mammon Machine) it's certainly possible. In fact, it could work together with what I suggest, since having the Frozen Flame would easily help with empowering Lavos in some fashion.

[Zaperking]

Even then, nobody knew about Lavos.

As for knowing about Lavos? The Arris Directer knew.

The Arris Director knew.

Director: ......

   Lavos......

I seriously doubt the Director knew about Lavos, what the being actually is, what it did to Zeal, the fact that it landed.
The Director saw Lavos on the screen, so from all facts known about the word and how it was handed down, most likely he saw that it was big, and shot fire. So he could easily, like Ayla, call it Lavos aka "Big Fire". There is no evidence to suggest that they understand or know what a Lavos is. Heck, only in 2300AD does it seem that anyone knew what Lavos was.

 [Monitor]
   2300 A.D.
   Lithosphere Investigation Report
   ~
   ~
   - Report no. 27 -
   ~
   [Unknown Life Force,
    Parasitic to the Planet]
   Geologic Stratum Result - 65,000,000 B.C.
   Code - '"Lavos"'

Not only is this in CC, but the report was made in 2300AD, and is the 27th report.
So a computer must have been monitoring it since 1999AD I guess :/ Since the Day of Lavos.

While it's kind of off-topic, I can't help but post a link to DBoruta's theory about the Ocean Palace incident. According to that theory, Lavos would have manipulated Queen Zeal into bringing the Mammon Machine close to him so that he could claim back the Frozen Flame.

Ah, yes, that theory...well, while we have no real evidence the Frozen Flame was actually the central core of the Mammon Machine(apart from Radical Dreamers which was rendered non-canon, though the fact that it does occur in an alternate universe suggests that it is possible--and potentially likely, given the simularities between the universes--that the Frozen Flame was thus the core of the Keystone Mammon Machine) it's certainly possible. In fact, it could work together with what I suggest, since having the Frozen Flame would easily help with empowering Lavos in some fashion.

I brought this up earlier in a post 2 years ago. We can just connect the dots with RD and CC, and it all fits together. Schala is pretty much an arbiter, able to control the Mammon Machine. The Mammon Machine has the flame in it. The Mammon Machine is brought closer to Lavos, who awakens in it's presence for any reason (Maybe it wants to take it back and become powerful or something?). This both happened in CT and RD (just without the flame being mentioned in CT) and is a motif in CC with the flame being the medium to evolve Lavos with an arbiter.
CT also supports a premature version of the Flame, with Belthasar stating that in 3,000,000BC, humans changed forever when they made contact with a red shard (the flame). So we can assume that back in 1996, the Flame concept wasn't fully designed, and they fully integrated it in CC and kind of added the background of it in RD.
Interesting concept :O

Oh and to Kyronea, just to go back to another point:
Whilst I was digging through the script in CT, the Arris Dome Director tells people to head off to the "ShelterDomes". So it's plausible that many more than 100 people survived, probably a lot, but not like more than 1% of the population. Weird that we don't see any on the 2300AD map. Guess they're inaccessible, like how we assume that CT has more cities that we just don't see.

[Kyronea]

Director: ......

   Lavos......

I seriously doubt the Director knew about Lavos, what the being actually is, what it did to Zeal, the fact that it landed.
The Director saw Lavos on the screen, so from all facts known about the word and how it was handed down, most likely he saw that it was big, and shot fire. So he could easily, like Ayla, call it Lavos aka "Big Fire". There is no evidence to suggest that they understand or know what a Lavos is. Heck, only in 2300AD does it seem that anyone knew what Lavos was.

 [Monitor]
   2300 A.D.
   Lithosphere Investigation Report
   ~
   ~
   - Report no. 27 -
   ~
   [Unknown Life Force,
    Parasitic to the Planet]
   Geologic Stratum Result - 65,000,000 B.C.
   Code - '"Lavos"'

Not only is this in CC, but the report was made in 2300AD, and is the 27th report.
So a computer must have been monitoring it since 1999AD I guess :/ Since the Day of Lavos.

Quite possibly. I do have a theory as to why Lavos might be known about, though:

We know that in the Lavos timeline--obviously--Magus was slain by Lavos. As such, Medina would be in the shape we first saw it in. Would it not be too surprising if there was some sort of cult devoted to the worship of Lavos as some mystical being? As such, would there not be legends at least somewhat known to educated people? Thusly, I say that he merely suspected this was the Lavos of that cult, which would, amusingly enough, be worshipping the real Lavos. No proof for this of course other than what we know of Medina in the Lavos timeline, but I like to think it would add a bit of culture, however dark, to the Mystics.

I brought this up earlier in a post 2 years ago. We can just connect the dots with RD and CC, and it all fits together. Schala is pretty much an arbiter, able to control the Mammon Machine. The Mammon Machine has the flame in it. The Mammon Machine is brought closer to Lavos, who awakens in it's presence for any reason (Maybe it wants to take it back and become powerful or something?). This both happened in CT and RD (just without the flame being mentioned in CT) and is a motif in CC with the flame being the medium to evolve Lavos with an arbiter.
CT also supports a premature version of the Flame, with Belthasar stating that in 3,000,000BC, humans changed forever when they made contact with a red shard (the flame). So we can assume that back in 1996, the Flame concept wasn't fully designed, and they fully integrated it in CC and kind of added the background of it in RD.
Interesting concept :O

Indeed, and though we may quibble over specific details, such as why Lavos awoke during the Ocena Palace incident, the general theory is sound.

Oh and to Kyronea, just to go back to another point:
Whilst I was digging through the script in CT, the Arris Dome Director tells people to head off to the "ShelterDomes". So it's plausible that many more than 100 people survived, probably a lot, but not like more than 1% of the population. Weird that we don't see any on the 2300AD map. Guess they're inaccessible, like how we assume that CT has more cities that we just don't see.

I'm going to take a brief moment and check that line in the retranslation, but from what I remember of that scene I think he was talking about sheltered areas in Arris Dome itself, since it seemed he was just talking to the people of Arris Dome. Given, agian, how quick the attack occurred, the odds of many, many more people surviving than I suggested is unlikely. What "ShelterDomes" probably means in reality is a sheltered part of the dome designed to withstand attacks on, say, a nuclear level, which would be close to adequate to protect from Lavos.

Ah, here we go, some support:

Director: All hands, evacuate to the shelter dome.....

See how it says "All hands"? That measns all of the crew/everyone in Arris Dome. While it was tossed into one word in the North American translation...I have no idea. Most of the other endings were translated poorly anyway.