Author Topic: Final Fantasy 12  (Read 10256 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2007, 04:35:09 am »
I find movies that shamelessly exploit women like that to be equally offensive. Any form of popularly enjoyable media that turns women into sex objects just to try and target a specific audience disgusts me. I hate it in video games; I hate it in movies, and I just plain hate it. It's stupid, it's wrong, and it shouldn't be done. Where are the mildly attractive women in games or in movies, hmm? Where are they? Because I can't find them anywhere, at least not in anything popular.

Seriously, guys get it about as badly, so don't complain. I mean, you girls have your Pride and Prejudice and 'Mr. Darcy' that's thrown around, and that's not any kinder to the most of us guys to compare us to that, either. I mean, really, speaking in regards to video games, so what if they're stereotyped somewhat? I know girls generally aren't like that (heck, I don't even want girls to be like that... to be honest, I go more after the 'Lucca' type, speaking in CT terms), but neither are guys like they're often portrayed.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2007, 06:42:01 am »
I have two main issues with FFXII: the grinding, and the storyline.

uhh what grind? use the golden amulet until you get the 2x EXP accessory and you should be far ahead in levels. if your grinding in this well thats just sad...

Ashe's just a meaningless plot device; and her voice acting and personality sucks.

her VA is actually pretty decent, she just sounds annoying all the time but considering her character thats not so much a flaw on the VAs side.
Vaan was the biggest meaningless plot device though unless he does something decent towards the very end of the game he doesn't do anything but be a clueless version of tidus.
 
XII was way too short for a FF and the plot development too linear, honestly since FF IX its been going down hill.

Um, the grind? You know? I don't even run away from fights, and I've done two extensive periods of grinding, yet I'm still behind. What does that tell you?

Well, I hated it. Of course it isn't the voice actor's fault; I just hate the stupid, snobby tone of the character.

The plot development wasn't linear enough. It's good when the plot is actually going somewhere- like in FFVII, you're chasing Sephiroth, and that's your goal, but there is still a decent plot and a lot of random crap happening along the way. In FFXII it goes all over the place. I mean, why?

Quote
Hell, even Chrono Trigger disobeys this...consider how Ayla is shown in all art with barely any real muscle at all despite being far stronger than all of the men. Conversely, Lucca in Chrono Trigger is something I want to see more...a realistic depiction of a woman rather than an artificial one.

I've been talking about games specifically here because that's what we're focusing on: video games. Stop targeting the horny teenagers, video game companies, and give us realistic people, men and women alike. I'd like to see, for once, a hero that actually looks HUMAN.

Eh. That's like, the one problem with Chrono Trigger. It's a trade off. The characters are all likable and lively, but they're also unrealistic. Even Lucca, who is heading in the right direction, like you said isn't believable or human.

Rydis

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2007, 07:50:11 am »
I find movies that shamelessly exploit women like that to be equally offensive. Any form of popularly enjoyable media that turns women into sex objects just to try and target a specific audience disgusts me. I hate it in video games; I hate it in movies, and I just plain hate it. It's stupid, it's wrong, and it shouldn't be done. Where are the mildly attractive women in games or in movies, hmm? Where are they? Because I can't find them anywhere, at least not in anything popular.

Hell, even Chrono Trigger disobeys this...consider how Ayla is shown in all art with barely any real muscle at all despite being far stronger than all of the men. Conversely, Lucca in Chrono Trigger is something I want to see more...a realistic depiction of a woman rather than an artificial one.

I've been talking about games specifically here because that's what we're focusing on: video games. Stop targeting the horny teenagers, video game companies, and give us realistic people, men and women alike. I'd like to see, for once, a hero that actually looks HUMAN.

As opposed to...magus...or even chrono?  Same rules you stated apply to these to characters also. If the only thing that keeps someone like ayla from being realistic is drawn muscle definition, then you have to be the pickiest person I have ever seen. People hardly seen defined women in the real world that fit this.  Most are rather just fit, or toned, but not really defined, which more or less, would be what ayla is, except she is strong?  Are you saying it is sexist and a poor betrayal of women because ayla shouldn't that strong?  Thats the only conclusion I can get from your statement.  You yourself seem to be all over the board on what you think is  a good portrayal and realistic.  Having ayla (and this applies to any game/movie) with someone who might look like they come from a muscle magazine is unappealing to anyone, women and men alike.

Again, the only three games I can see that portray women as sex objects has been DOA Extreme/2 and Rumble roses.  Please list for me some games which degrade what a women might be accurately portrayed and no male cast isn't just as bad.  As of now, your moot point to me seems nothing more then a double standard.

My we got far off topic and im sure this will be locked soon.

Kyronea

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2007, 02:34:17 pm »
Of course those rules apply and I never said anything different. I've been focusing on the female aspect more than the male aspect because females tend to be exploited and targeted by sexism a lot more than males do. Does Crono's excessive musculature and fitness insult me a bit? Yeah. Do I care that much when there's something much more insulting? No, but that doesn't make it any less relevant.

I want them to be realistic for what they're supposed to be. If Ayla is supposed to be as strong as she is, she should look like she has the muscles. If a person is supposed to be athletic, they should have a small bust size. In other words, a person should look like what they really would look like in that situation rather than a stereotypically altered look just to make them appear more "beautiful."

Same goes for males. Crono is a teenager...he's not going to be THAT fit no matter what he does. He should really look a bit more scrawny. Magus should definitely not look anywhere near as strong as he does...he focuses so much on his magic that he should really look more like Lucca does in terms of musculature.

I just want realistic people. Most of the time what I speak of is subtle rather than blatent in the sense of DOA Extreme, but it's still there. I want realistic heroes. It was mentioned by another that there could be a hero that was fat and balding. I'd accept that if that was what the character really should be. All I'm asking is that a person look like what they should look like. They shouldn't have DD's if they're extremely athletic. They should have muscular limbs if they're incredibly strong, and so on and so forth. I want realism. Is that too much to ask?

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2007, 05:15:23 pm »
Same goes for males. Crono is a teenager...he's not going to be THAT fit no matter what he does. He should really look a bit more scrawny. Magus should definitely not look anywhere near as strong as he does...he focuses so much on his magic that he should really look more like Lucca does in terms of musculature.

Actually, here I disagree. Crono might be a teenager, but not a teenager of a 'modern' world. Times were when someone that was, say, sixteen could be a good fighter and soldier, better than a full adult. I suppose this example is more for comand prowess than outright fighting, but Alexander did a brilliant job commanding his father's cavalry at a battle when he was merely sixteen. In times past, people matured faster, and someone we'd consider a kid and teenager could have had a place with the men. I think, if he's a swordsman, he could well have had that strength, though, technically speaking, his muscles should be stronger on his left arm than his right.

For Janus, it is absolutely warranted. I've always seen him as the perfect warrior - capable in everything. Yeah, sure, he uses scythes and sickles, but that's a choice to make his appearance more fearsome. If he can choose to use such difficult weapons (rarely used in the history of war - though, I must stress, there were times in which they were), and use them well, he must be utterly masterful with other weapons, such as swords, spears, axes, and so forth. I would say his physical strength is warranted.

But that's CT. It has a right to do all that.

cronopolis

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2007, 05:23:05 pm »
I have another great example of other worldly strength without muscle tone in the character design.  Look at the anime show Mar (Marchen Awakens Romance), when he was brought into the world of mar from earth, He had not only increased strength and speed, but he also no longer needed his glasses to see well, different worlds, different levels of gravity, and different views on what is normal, and what isn't.

Kyronea

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2007, 05:37:01 pm »
Actually, here I disagree. Crono might be a teenager, but not a teenager of a 'modern' world. Times were when someone that was, say, sixteen could be a good fighter and soldier, better than a full adult. I suppose this example is more for comand prowess than outright fighting, but Alexander did a brilliant job commanding his father's cavalry at a battle when he was merely sixteen. In times past, people matured faster, and someone we'd consider a kid and teenager could have had a place with the men. I think, if he's a swordsman, he could well have had that strength, though, technically speaking, his muscles should be stronger on his left arm than his right.

For Janus, it is absolutely warranted. I've always seen him as the perfect warrior - capable in everything. Yeah, sure, he uses scythes and sickles, but that's a choice to make his appearance more fearsome. If he can choose to use such difficult weapons (rarely used in the history of war - though, I must stress, there were times in which they were), and use them well, he must be utterly masterful with other weapons, such as swords, spears, axes, and so forth. I would say his physical strength is warranted.

But that's CT. It has a right to do all that.
Fair enough. I suppose I hadn't considered that as fully as I should have, especially where Magus is concerned in terms of scythes. I still think they're a little bit too muscular, but it's more true to what they are than I first thought.

Rydis

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2007, 08:26:34 pm »
Actually, here I disagree. Crono might be a teenager, but not a teenager of a 'modern' world. Times were when someone that was, say, sixteen could be a good fighter and soldier, better than a full adult. I suppose this example is more for comand prowess than outright fighting, but Alexander did a brilliant job commanding his father's cavalry at a battle when he was merely sixteen. In times past, people matured faster, and someone we'd consider a kid and teenager could have had a place with the men. I think, if he's a swordsman, he could well have had that strength, though, technically speaking, his muscles should be stronger on his left arm than his right.

For Janus, it is absolutely warranted. I've always seen him as the perfect warrior - capable in everything. Yeah, sure, he uses scythes and sickles, but that's a choice to make his appearance more fearsome. If he can choose to use such difficult weapons (rarely used in the history of war - though, I must stress, there were times in which they were), and use them well, he must be utterly masterful with other weapons, such as swords, spears, axes, and so forth. I would say his physical strength is warranted.

But that's CT. It has a right to do all that.
Fair enough. I suppose I hadn't considered that as fully as I should have, especially where Magus is concerned in terms of scythes. I still think they're a little bit too muscular, but it's more true to what they are than I first thought.

You can't hold games in such realistic opinion because the same rules to apply. Sure, if they are strong, they can be muscular, but not all strong people are.  For example, myself.  I am rather skinny at 135, but I can bench 225 and curl 180, yet I dont have much muscle tone because of my weight.

You confuse me because, as I said, you keep changing around what you think.  First you said it was because of girls portrayal in games, and how it degraded them and such. I agreed some games do, but I think you exaggerate the amount. You then change it to a act of realism, in which the people in games should appear as the would to your standard of realism, which you can't apply to games.  More realistic games, Metal Gear, army games and the like do this more accuraly then say, Final Fantasy games because most are modeled after our world. However, you can't expect, not condone a game such as Devil May Cry, Final Fantasy and the like because our rules don't apply.

Being as such, realism of the type you speak of can be good, but when not applied I dont see how it can be degrading anyone. Going with which, as I stated, there are many more male characters in games then their are women and because of those vast numbers, there are more males that fall into the category that you apply the females to, but seem to focus mainly on females, which is why I say its a double standard. The platform of the game, and its origination also come into play, as you can't expect a country, say Japan, to adhere to your expectations.  And different platform games would require more realism then others.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 08:31:58 pm by Rydis »

Kyronea

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2007, 08:33:12 pm »
No, I didn't change what I think. I continue to say the same thing: as it stands the depiction is degrading and thus the depiction should be more realistic. How is that contradictory? Realism means realism: it means a person should look like what they should look like for what their character is and their situation. What is hard to understand about that?

Rydis

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2007, 09:11:15 pm »
No, I didn't change what I think. I continue to say the same thing: as it stands the depiction is degrading and thus the depiction should be more realistic. How is that contradictory? Realism means realism: it means a person should look like what they should look like for what their character is and their situation. What is hard to understand about that?

Because what you dictate as unreal is in fact real.  There are many people who are strong without being well defined. There are many self respecting females who dress like many games portray.

Ie.  You say Ayla should be muscular because of her strength, when there are many people in the world who are the same way.  Its is contradictory to say that something real, is unreal.

Kyronea

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2007, 09:18:07 pm »
...you know what? Forget it. Obviously I'm not able to phrase my opinion properly enough to be understandable, so let's just drop the whole thing.

Hadriel

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2007, 10:18:57 pm »
Well, in my opinion, from what I saw of it, FFXII was probably... hmmm... okay, the problem with comparing to other RPGs I played in the past is that they have that effect of nostalgia connected to them, so to make it an equal comparison I have to take my view of them down a rung or two. That said, I'd say that... FFXII probably equals CC, is almost as good as CT, almost as good as the Knights games, equal to FFVI, and is better than any other one that I've played and not mentioned.

CC is equal in dissimilar ways - it has a better mood and feel than FFXII manages to achieve - however, for other reasons, FFXII pulls ahead, and so in the end they equalise.

CT manages to stay ahead of it purely for its simplicity and mood, the very things that make it a classic.

The Knights games, well, their stories outmatch any Japanese RPG I've ever seen - in subtlety and power - and their music is excellent, and their voice acting wonderful. If only George Lucas would hire some other director to make these games and that era into movies, Star Wars would be back in its glory days. Now I know some people might try and throw at me certain games like, say, Xenosaga, as an example of a good story (mind you, I'm limited here by the games I have played, so that's why I say 'that I've seen'), but I found Xenosaga's story... ill-contrived, for several reasons. It didn't strike me as good storytelling by a longshot and, frankly, seemed amateurish more than anything (after all, anyone can throw in allusions that supposedly sound 'cool', but they didn't come together... and allusions like that do not make a grand story!) CT is simple storywise, but for several reasons (chiefmost being the out-of-the-blue inclusion of Zeal, it's ahead of the pack.) CC... too complicated a story. It makes sense, I know, but it got lost in its own complexity, and really... a story shouldn't be quite that confusing. It had its flaws. Let's see... FFVII struck me as, well, nothing special. FFVI was pretty good, but didn't match Knights. As far as I've seen, though, FFXII was doing a good job in its story. Alright, so it was cliched, but it used its cliche well.

Anyway, yeah, so from what I saw, I rank FFXII highly. I particularly like the voice-acting for Balthier, and I like the character of Ashe... okay, I've only played FFVI, VII, and X, but out of those, VII and X had no really good female characters. But VI had Celes. And Ashe is the closes I've seen to Celes.

OK, so Yuffie is annoying, useless, and clearly evil, not that any of those things would stop me from hitting it raw.  But I'd disagree that Tifa and Aeris served no purpose.  They're both very strong individuals with a lot of heart; Tifa actually somehow manages to avoid being a sex object in-universe.  Aeris was actually rather Zelda-like, and I'm attracted to that entire archetype of woman.  I still shed a tear when she died in spite of knowing about it well in advance, because she was just that sweet and cuddly.  I know that my friends are all going to die eventually, but that's not going to stop me from missing them terribly.

The thing about FFXII to me is that while its story is attempting to be serious, its art direction really isn't.  When you have airships toting machine guns in the air doing battle with knights on chocobos using spears on the ground, and when only one major character in the game uses a firearm despite them apparently being fairly widely available, I have a hard time taking the story seriously, because the setting doesn't make sense.

saridon

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2007, 03:43:26 am »
Um, the grind? You know? I don't even run away from fights, and I've done two extensive periods of grinding, yet I'm still behind. What does that tell you?

Well, I hated it. Of course it isn't the voice actor's fault; I just hate the stupid, snobby tone of the character.

The plot development wasn't linear enough. It's good when the plot is actually going somewhere- like in FFVII, you're chasing Sephiroth, and that's your goal, but there is still a decent plot and a lot of random crap happening along the way. In FFXII it goes all over the place. I mean, why?

if your behind then your just in the wrong area path or your avoiding fights, the 2x accessories eliminates the need to ever grind for anything.

FFXII wasnt really all over the place it was linear i was all too straight forward with the we go here get this, go here do this, etc, etc your at the end of the game without figuring anything out yourself much like X, VII you had to look around for stuff usually and you didn't conveniently know where you always had to go. and often had long periods where you had alot of extra side stuff to do, you were never shoved on a fixed path with the little "extras" XII has along the way.

X and XII both probably fall short of story quality compared to the other FFs  since they focus too much on the problem of a single character, X was all about yuna wanting to kill sin XII about ashe wanting to reclaim her country everything else just seemed to be shit that happened along the way without much character development driving anything.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2007, 03:29:00 pm »
Um, the grind? You know? I don't even run away from fights, and I've done two extensive periods of grinding, yet I'm still behind. What does that tell you?

Well, I hated it. Of course it isn't the voice actor's fault; I just hate the stupid, snobby tone of the character.

The plot development wasn't linear enough. It's good when the plot is actually going somewhere- like in FFVII, you're chasing Sephiroth, and that's your goal, but there is still a decent plot and a lot of random crap happening along the way. In FFXII it goes all over the place. I mean, why?

if your behind then your just in the wrong area path or your avoiding fights, the 2x accessories eliminates the need to ever grind for anything.

FFXII wasnt really all over the place it was linear i was all too straight forward with the we go here get this, go here do this, etc, etc your at the end of the game without figuring anything out yourself much like X, VII you had to look around for stuff usually and you didn't conveniently know where you always had to go. and often had long periods where you had alot of extra side stuff to do, you were never shoved on a fixed path with the little "extras" XII has along the way.

X and XII both probably fall short of story quality compared to the other FFs  since they focus too much on the problem of a single character, X was all about yuna wanting to kill sin XII about ashe wanting to reclaim her country everything else just seemed to be shit that happened along the way without much character development driving anything.

I always try and fight any enemies I see (within reason, of course) unless I am severely low on health.

But that isn't plot development. That's just finding out where to go. Plot development is the way the plot develops through the game, and it does this in a very weird pattern.

No. FFXII by no means focuses on Ashe and FFX is about two characters, Yuna and Tidus.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Final Fantasy 12
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2007, 05:02:38 pm »
OK, so Yuffie is annoying, useless, and clearly evil, not that any of those things would stop me from hitting it raw.  But I'd disagree that Tifa and Aeris served no purpose.  They're both very strong individuals with a lot of heart; Tifa actually somehow manages to avoid being a sex object in-universe.  Aeris was actually rather Zelda-like, and I'm attracted to that entire archetype of woman.  I still shed a tear when she died in spite of knowing about it well in advance, because she was just that sweet and cuddly.  I know that my friends are all going to die eventually, but that's not going to stop me from missing them terribly.

The thing about FFXII to me is that while its story is attempting to be serious, its art direction really isn't.  When you have airships toting machine guns in the air doing battle with knights on chocobos using spears on the ground, and when only one major character in the game uses a firearm despite them apparently being fairly widely available, I have a hard time taking the story seriously, because the setting doesn't make sense.

I like the anachronism of guns and swords, which really isn't all that bad, historically speaking. After all, men were still armouring themselves after the intruduction of firearms (of the sort that Balthier uses.) We still used swords well into the 1800s, when even machine guns were beginning of being introduced.

The airships are anachronistic in some sense, but they work not by technology, per say, but more through magic. More than that, it's said to be a Moogle invention - as such, it's only a lent skill, and the continuing use of swords is understandable. Personally, I liked the stylistic setup of the story. Of course, it was rather cliche in many aspects, and that I didn't quite like. But certain ideas and styles I took an extreme liking to. The entire Archadian empire was set up rather like Rome - the power struggles between the powerful leaders, the senate, and the Praetorian-like Judges. The mood that set struck me immediately... as did the struggles within the leadership. That the Judges themselves show division in their ranks over what to do, rather than just being a set of enemy leaders was quite entertaining.

Furthermore, I was greatly in favour of the dialogue at times, and this above and beyond all probably struck me, and carried over to the voice actors. Now, let me first say that I am in no manner in favour of Vaan or Penelo. Those exited my party at first chance, and never re-entered - I think the rest were near to level 40 by the time I gave the game back to Blockbuster, whereas Vaan was still level 16. But these few aside, the others had admirable traits. Balthier is quite amusing, and the British tendencies in his dialogue, though they stereotype his character, do well with the cliche. I also found myself impressed with the way they formulated a lot of his dialogue, the sentence structure and what not, little turns of phrase I had never expected nor seen in a video game, and actually which in my mind set it way above any game save Knights (this comment goes beyond Balthier, and apply to several of the characters. I seem to remember a bit of dialogue like that the creatures 'ever and always' wander around in this one tomb, or some such structure to the line... when I heard that, I thought to myself 'hey, that's how I'D write!', so I at once had an affinity to it.) Basch was... here and there. He had an interesting voice, and good dialogue (again, cliche, but I'll not say that's a bad thing in an RPG like this) more or less, though there are a few things I have an aversion to. Sometimes his formality becomes unneccessarially antique, and one thing I simply cannot abide is putting a negation after the verb, ie. 'I know not'... bloody hell, it's 'I do not know', or most often 'I don't know.' But that aside, he was pretty good. Ashe was also varied, but her character was far better than I'd expected, and since I at once connected her with Celes, she was mandatory to my party. She is the typical 'strong female', but unlike some games which make them annoying (because they are only 'acting' strong) she comes across as actually strong. And then there's Fran. I liked her. A lot. Not for her bunny stuff or what not, but for her voice. I could not place her weird accent, whatever it was. Her trilled r's, and softness here and there, confounded me every time I heard it, to the point that I always wanted to hear it again because comprehending it was just out of reach. And since she spoke only so rarely... I liked her. Plus she was one of the better fighters in my party.

Beyond this, the pronunciation blew me away. Sound like a silly comment? You have to remember, I'm a student of antique languages at the moment. I"m learning Greek and Latin (and for modern languages I know German.) That means I have four different pronunciations in my head. More than that, I have an affinity to pronunciation, and particularly with feeling. I tend to pronounce names of Greek gods or anything like that from antiquity a bit differently, a bit less English, than most (if not going fully into the antique forms.) That said, it really jars me when they pronounce things as they do in games so often. Like in Xenosaga... Nephilim being said 'Neph-eh-lim'... what?! That has no emotion to it, and sounds like a bloody American saying it. It really doesn't lend well to the suspension of disbelief. That's why I was so impressed that Ivalice wasn't 'Eye-vah-liss' but 'Ee-vah-lees'; Jagd wasn't something half American like 'Dgagd' or whatever it'd be, but they said it like the German word (hunt) that it is 'Yahgd.' So it might seem like a minor thing, but for me, who is really sensitive to this sort of stylistic thing, it's immense. (Indeed, if, say, CT were ever made into a movie, I would abhor if the people of Zeal were to say 'Jay-nuss' as if they were bloody Americans. It should be 'Yah-nuss'. Melchior should have a trilled 'r'. Belthesar... okay, I'm not even going to try, because half of it can't even be brought across in writing. It requires a very subtle shift in the way someone says something.)

As for FFVII... nope, still got no connection to those characters. Aeris was bleh for me, a non-entity. Since I knew what was to happen, I didn't ever use her, and there was never any connection there whatsoever. I mean, Kid in CC, sure. Lucca in CT (then when she is found to be dead in CC), most definitely. But Aeris? Never. She seems rather too simple. Kid has a bit of energy to her character which makes her sudden fall disconcerting. Lucca... well, I always liked her. But Aeris isn't... interesting at all. She's too nice. Tifa I far preferred, but even she didn't have much connection for me. In comparison, characters like Knights' Visas Marr, and Bastila, were far more enthralling. I'm not actually connected to either Aeris' or Tifa's archetype - one the simple gentle princess, the other the strong fighter. I'm prefer the Lucca-type, which doesn't exist in FFVII. Or, as I've said, the sort in Knights, who have power beyond physical prowess - both Visas and Bastila are of this sort. Bastila is a Jedi princess of extreme skill and power, physical AND mental; Visas is just... interesting. A seer, once a Sith, a bit broken but regains her strength through the course of the game. These beat Aeris and Tifa.