Author Topic: The Imus Nonsense  (Read 8847 times)

ZeaLitY

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The Imus Nonsense
« on: April 12, 2007, 12:43:58 am »
What to make of the Don Imus nonsense? I'm asking because it has repercussions concerning free speech and hypocrisy. The word "ho" is a commercial commodity used to market music and has been for years; why did the media suddenly lurch at this instance, and why did it lurch at a shock-jock? This kind of thing is to be expected from their group along with other offensive words; I guess that's why Stern ditched terrestrial radio and took up satellite.

Now, if you want to get down to it, yes, "ho" is sexist. But Don Imus did not invent the word nor use it to half the degree it has enjoyed in the establishment. So I'm curious what the hubbub is all about. I mean, sure, Al Sharpton's up to no good with the usual blowhards, but the rest of the media is focusing on this too. Why Imus, and why now?

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2007, 12:52:51 am »
I refuse to judge the event in any way, shape, or form until I know precisely what was said, in what context, and why. I've been unable to find these details anywhere and it's been annoying me all to hell.

From what I do know, it seems Imus made a racist and sexist comment--"nappy headed hos"--which inflamed the black community, as is their right. Frankly, while I am offended by it, I don't see the real big deal here...so what if he said it? Did he say it as the anchor of a news show, or was it a commentary show? If the former, then yes he should lose his job as it was an embarrasment, but if the latter then why should anyone be concerned, anymore than what Bill O'Reilly might blabber about?

He has the right to free speech. So long as he does not commit a violent act or otherwise harm the liberties of a black, or of any other ethnicity, I say let him spout all the hate speech he wants. We know his speech is hateful and thus need not be listened to, so why get so irritated about it?

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2007, 12:54:57 am »
But isn't calling it hate speech going pretty far when talking about shock jocks? People like these are the ones who'd yell outlandish stuff just to get people mad; it's what they do -- sort of like Penn and Teller's propensity for knowing how to be really offensive in a way that satirically cuts through sensibilities. So hate speech in other contexts, but a shock jock's, jeez.

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2007, 12:59:59 am »
But isn't calling it hate speech going pretty far when talking about shock jocks? People like these are the ones who'd yell outlandish stuff just to get people mad; it's what they do -- sort of like Penn and Teller's propensity for knowing how to be really offensive in a way that satirically cuts through sensibilities. So hate speech in other contexts, but a shock jock's, jeez.
Shock jock, eh? See, this is why I refused to judge the situation either way, because I did not have this information. If his intent was to, in essence, troll in real life, then it's not even as bothersome as it might have been. Still...as a Caucasian, I probably am somewhat biased because I cannot understand what such speech sounds like from the point of view of an actual black person. (I say black because African-American is a foolish PC word that means absolutely jack.)

nightmare975

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2007, 01:07:45 am »
It's about time a Democrat got in trouble. It seems like everyday a Republican is in trouble.

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2007, 01:12:38 am »
It's about time a Democrat got in trouble. It seems like everyday a Republican is in trouble.
Oh, please. The Democrats are no different from the Republicans...both are huge super-parties willing to do anything for power. There are the occasional respectable ones among them--such as Obama--but for the most part they're all equally bad, as far as I'm concerned.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 01:16:55 am »
It's about time a Democrat got in trouble. It seems like everyday a Republican is in trouble.

Blame Republicans for that. Scratch that; blame neoconservatives.

But the days are coming to an end. Sarbanes-Oxley may impose a hefty burden on corporations, but its provisions will murder the Enron style. Gross executive compensation is investigated, and management (even the highest levels) must take responsibility for their financials and internal controls. Though not in the way Gordon Gekko envisioned, management has a stake in the company again -- their freedom from penalties and convictions. Beautiful and flexible LLCs are blooming.

And Kyronea's right; there's idiocy on both sides. Hillary Clinton is now a faithful churchgoer, didn't you know?

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 04:05:30 am »
I've been following this one on the liberal blogosphere, not because I care but because everybody else seems to. As far as I can tell, Imus is small potatoes. The right wing noise machine--O'Reilly, Dobson, Hannity, etc.--is almost criminal in its radio casts. Truly sickening garbage. Imus deserved what he got, but I for one wish all of this national outrage had befallen a true villain rather than a nationally syndicated dolt.

By the way, next time you hear some traditional media talking head complain about the civility of discourse on the blogosphere, slap your speaker upside the head and remind the idiot on the other side that they've given right-wing radio a pass for decades.

Idiots.

And for you, nightmare975, a Lord J Esq. Special: $90,000 in bribe money found in Democratic Congressman's freezer

Democrats get in trouble too. Contrary to Kyronea's statement, they don't do it nearly as often, or to the degree, that Republicans do, but they have their crooks among them. Sure, the freezer money story is a year old, but hey? It's the best I could do for a recent, proper scandal over a national Democrat. Dems just aren't as ethically depraved. =)

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2007, 04:11:07 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Democrats get in trouble too. Contrary to Kyronea's statement, they don't do it nearly as often, or to the degree, that Republicans do, but they have their crooks among them. Sure, the freezer money story is a year old, but hey? It's the best I could do for a recent, proper scandal over a national Democrat. Dems just aren't as ethically depraved. =)
I beg to differ, but then people tend to have a short memory when it comes to criminal activity and general depravity among the super-parties. Don't get me wrong...I despise the Republicans far more than I do the Democrats, but I've never seen a single reason to support the Democrats in their endevours...they may take the position of those who protect civil liberties but they don't truly believe it anymore than they really believe all of the other positions they represent.

The parties in this country are just too huge...they act as if all issues have a yes or no, positive or negative, anti or for position and try to force such bullshit down our gullets. Consider the distractionary tactics of illegal immigration or banning homosexual marriage, or flag burning, or the Democratic response of using Bush in every single damned statement without really choosing a policy of their own...

Really, what needs to be done is for the parties to be broken down into at least three parties from each super-party...we'd have a better represenatation of the people then. Of course, I'd also prefer that we ditch the first past the post system, install a parliamentary legislative body and ditch the office of President altogether, but one thing at a time, eh?

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2007, 04:28:20 am »
Speaking of neo-conservatives...http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=7591

At Kyronea, I agree with you. But I think that most super parties have different party factions in it, like in an Australian context, the Labor party has the Labor Unity and Socialist Labor factions.

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2007, 04:33:22 am »
Speaking of neo-conservatives...http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=7591

At Kyronea, I agree with you. But I think that most super parties have different party factions in it, like in an Australian context, the Labor party has the Labor Unity and Socialist Labor factions.
Aye...there are factions like that in the American super parties as well, though they're rarely named like that, and sometimes they're merely perceived, such as the "Far-left" of the Democratic party. Typically, what you've got is more a concentrated set of interests, such as the religious conservatives, the economic liberals, and the neoconservatives in the Republican party; and the social liberals, economic conservatives in the Democratic party. (I use economic liberal and economic conservative in an international sense, where they would usually be seen, in the U.S., as the reverse.)

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2007, 04:37:52 am »
Unfortunately, Kyronea, it is cynicism toward the Democratic Party that erodes our edge in the generic polling and depresses the very same voter turnout that would bring some liberal gravitas to the party.

Defending the Democrats is neither easy nor particularly fun, but politics at this level is all pragmatism. If you support the Party, you can gain a measure of influence over it. If you just deride it, the Republicans win again.

Before discovering Daily Kos, I had never actually known someone (other than the national Dems themselves) who honestly believed in the party. Daily Kos turned my thinking on its head in this matter, because at last I began to see that it isn't the Party's fault for being so far from where I want it to be. It's my fault. Actually, since I vote and am pretty active in politics, it's all y'all's fault. =)

Kyronea

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2007, 04:46:00 am »
Unfortunately, Kyronea, it is cynicism toward the Democratic Party that erodes our edge in the generic polling and depresses the very same voter turnout that would bring some liberal gravitas to the party.
That might be nice...though what I'd really love to see would be a party full of social libertarians.(And I don't mean that pathetic American Libertarian Party style libertarian...they're right wing libertarian and I speak of left-wing libertarian.) It'd also be nice to see some liberal socialistic economic policy...a policy that stresses all having equal opportunity. Emphasis on opportunity, not wealth.

Quote
Defending the Democrats is neither easy nor particularly fun, but politics at this level is all pragmatism. If you support the Party, you can gain a measure of influence over it. If you just deride it, the Republicans win again.
And what really makes the Democrats any better, eh? I know where you're going with this but I just have to disagree on general principles, really. Take a look at the history of the Democratic Party before proudly supporting it, please.

Quote
Before discovering Daily Kos, I had never actually known someone (other than the national Dems themselves) who honestly believed in the party. Daily Kos turned my thinking on its head in this matter, because at last I began to see that it isn't the Party's fault for being so far from where I want it to be. It's my fault.
Oooh, so they get you to blame yourself! Nice tactic.

Okay, I'm being unfair here. Still, don't expect too much out of such things...it's more a case of a person simply taking one side over the other.

I will tell you this...if the positions of the two parties were reversed we'd see the Democrats acting just as corrupt and power-hungry as the Republicans, I guarentee you, because they're all politicians, and those who spend so much time seeking power do not deserve to have it.

Quote
Actually, since I vote and am pretty active in politics, it's all y'all's fault. =)
Don't blame me...I've been active since I turned old enough to vote and I vote every opportunity presented to me. I'm actually considering registering as a Democrat just to participate in their primaries and ensure Hillary Clinton does not win the primary...if I have to vote for any big party candidate, I want to vote for Obama, as he's the only real sensible one I've been seeing thus far. That, and the Democratic National Convention is being held in Denver not too far from me next year, and I may decide to attend just to see what one of these things are like. My parents are sure to so I'll probably just tag along with them.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2007, 05:17:23 am »
And what really makes the Democrats any better, eh? I know where you're going with this but I just have to disagree on general principles, really. Take a look at the history of the Democratic Party before proudly supporting it, please.

"Here, Mr. Bruce Lee, take a look at this blog post I wrote on how to perform martial arts--before you embarrass yourself."

I will tell you this...if the positions of the two parties were reversed we'd see the Democrats acting just as corrupt and power-hungry as the Republicans, I guarentee you, because they're all politicians, and those who spend so much time seeking power do not deserve to have it.

Demonstrably false. On the surface, just look at the timeline: It took the Democrats forty years to get voted out of power (and even then it wasn't for corruption); it took the Republicans just twelve years to collapse in the unholy corruption stew of their own brewing. But that's "not being fair," so why not consider this:

1) Democrats, being further to the left than Republicans, are naturally less inclined to be corrupt. Social justice, economic empowerment, government accountability, and environmental responsibility are major Democratic causes.

2) Democrats receive less lobbying money by major corporate interests. The fat cats know who is more likely to scratch their backs, and it ain't the Dems.

3) Liberals are vastly more Democratic than Republican. Liberals keep government officials on their toes. Liberals hate corrupt politicians.

4) The left-wing in America, by its nature, is more chaotic and disunited than the right-wing. That discourages organized corruption. This carries over to the Democrats.

5) Republicans believe in a government so small it won't threaten anyone. They are an enemy of big government. Put them in charge of that same government, and what do you think will happen? You don't need to think--just look at the past twelve years. In a sick sort of way, the Republicans have been entirely successful in their management of the government: They have brought it to its knees. Democrats believe in government as a force for good. They are much less likely to corrupt it.

Honestly, Kyronea, if you really believe that the two parties are just copies of the same corrupt beast, you have both fallen for the classic third-party propaganda line, and, worse, you simply have not been paying attention to politics. Which is what I am led to believe by your next statement:

I'm actually considering registering as a Democrat just to participate in their primaries and ensure Hillary Clinton does not win the primary...if I have to vote for any big party candidate, I want to vote for Obama, as he's the only real sensible one I've been seeing thus far.

Richardson is far more "sensible" than any of them. His positions, his public statements on the campaign trail, his recent political accomplishments, and his long resume make that perfectly clear. If you had been paying close attention, you would have known this. Obama is great; he is a great political personality and his ideology is in the right place. I would be genuinely excited to have him as president. But if you think he is the great one and the others are all forgettable, then you've only been eating he media narrative, and not thinking with your own head. Likewise, Hillary Clinton, for as odiously transparent as her campaign style is, is still a liberal. She would make a fine president. I don't think I'll be supporting her in the primaries, but I'll be more than glad to vote for her on Election Day, should she win the nomination.

Your mistake was to speak in such absolute terms. To do so reveals your lack of in-depth knowledge on the subject. None of the four major Democratic contenders are patently bad. None are ass-kissingly good, either, for that matter, although I am much more excited by the 2008 field than I was by the 2004 field.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The Imus Nonsense
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2007, 05:25:20 am »
One thing I forgot to say--and important enough that I'll give it its own post: A political party is what its members make of it. The entrenched power structures are not immutable. All things change with time. That's why your attack on the Democratic Party based on its past history was so throwaway ridiculous.

The Republican Party has decayed badly since the religious fundamentalists infiltrated and came to dominate it. They are worse than the neoconservatives, by far--and the neocons, for their part, are just plain ugly. Together, these two factions have brought the party to its knees. Not that the old-style Republican of the mid-twentieth century was anything so grand and noble, but I'd rather deal with yesterday's Republicans than today's, if the choice were mine.

The Democratic Party has lost a lot of its economic populism, something we need to get back. And we've moved way to the center on social justice issues. Sadly, much of this is a result of the shift of all of America to the right. But to the extent a major political party can influence the terms of the debate, the Democrats have lost much of their old liberal glory, and are in sorry shape today.

But the Democratic brand is strong. For all those years of Republican attacks, many Americans still proudly identify with the party--more so than do with Republicans or independents of any stripe. It will be far, far, and stupendously easier to effect progressive change from within the Democratic Party than by outflanking the Dems on the left. And while those who are so inclined are welcome to do that, if more true liberals would unite behind the Democratic Party, the Party's leftward shift would be considerable and swift.