The Imus Nonsense

[Kyronea]

That's my whole reasoning behind combining a national sales tax and an income tax, Lord J. The sales tax is meant to target those with very low incomes so their income's aren't directly taxed, while those with the incomes that can be freely taxed without losing all that much spending power do have their incomes taxed in addition to paying the sales tax. It's a fairer system because income tax tends to take away too much even when based on the lowest percentages possible...anyone who takes a job as a fast food employee will know that one.

That's why I like considering creative solutions like the Fair Tax, instead of over-simplified textbook examples designed to teach basic economic theory. The Fair Tax actually addresses the minimum quality of life issue, and very simply and creatively for a sales tax -- in a way that would give the poor more spending power than they have now.

Care to tell us what that method of adressing this problem is instead of just telling us to read a book?

[Ramsus]

That's why I like considering creative solutions like the Fair Tax, instead of over-simplified textbook examples designed to teach basic economic theory. The Fair Tax actually addresses the minimum quality of life issue, and very simply and creatively for a sales tax -- in a way that would give the poor more spending power than they have now.

Care to tell us what that method of adressing this problem is instead of just telling us to read a book?

I introduced one of the ideas... Basically, you'd get a monthly check in the mail that would be relatively nothing to a rich person, but worth more than the taxes any poor person would pay.

...Part of their proposal with a national sales tax would be to reimburse every household the amount they would have paid at the poverty line, so households that are below the poverty line actually make money off of the deal...

Any more than that and I'd just be repeating the book anyway. If you lack enough interest in exploring possible solutions to our tax problems to read even a single, rather short book, then it's not worth explaining. You're better off sticking to what you know.

The major idea though is to radically simplify our tax system and get rid of income taxes.

[Kyronea]

Any more than that and I'd just be repeating the book anyway. If you lack enough interest in exploring possible solutions to our tax problems to read even a single, rather short book, then it's not worth explaining. You're better off sticking to what you know.

My point was that you are presenting the arguments so you might as well inform of us of what all they are.

[Radical_Dreamer]

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#1

[Joe000]

Apart from doing everything they can to end the Iraq War

I really hope that was sarcasm.  And more importantly, what is their position on the next war (Iran)?  I've said it before; it's easy to be against the Iraq War, but where are the people coming out and saying "No war with Iran?"  Remember that provision that got stripped out of a bill that said the President had to get congressional authority before attacking Iran (not that this should take a provision, but whatever)?  Yeah.  Or go read Obama's speech to AIPAC.  Oh yes, the Democrats are slobbering for the next preventive war.  No mainstream Democratic candidate has called for the immediate withdrawal of troops, except perhaps Kucinich, but I'm not sure and I don't know if you would call him mainstream.  The Democratic codeword for retaining the troops in Iraq is "redeployment".

But to answer your previous question, I consider myself a liberal in the grand tradition of liberalism ;p  Like John Stuart Mill's essay On Liberty.  That's my favorite work of political philosophy.  Kinda short though, he wasn't trying to articulate a fully realized and developed philosophical framework.  So I guess you'd say I was a libertarian.  But I like classic liberal xD

[Kyronea]

I really hope that was sarcasm.

No, no it wasn't. I was serious. You may have noticed the recent troop funding bills the Democrats have been attaching troop withdrawel requirements to? In essence, they are forcing Bush to make a choice: either end the Iraq war their way, or veto the funding bill and it end due to a lack of funding. Either way he's screwed.

And more importantly, what is their position on the next war (Iran)?  I've said it before; it's easy to be against the Iraq War, but where are the people coming out and saying "No war with Iran?"  Remember that provision that got stripped out of a bill that said the President had to get congressional authority before attacking Iran (not that this should take a provision, but whatever)?  Yeah.  Or go read Obama's speech to AIPAC.  Oh yes, the Democrats are slobbering for the next preventive war.  No mainstream Democratic candidate has called for the immediate withdrawal of troops, except perhaps Kucinich, but I'm not sure and I don't know if you would call him mainstream.  The Democratic codeword for retaining the troops in Iraq is "redeployment".

There is not going to be a war with Iran, hence the lack of outcry against it...what would be the point? Diplomacy is working well. The Iranian people actually like the U.S.--though that appreciation seems to be dissolving slowly day by day with our actions--and the Iranian government is not stupid. Ahmanidejad is the only insane one, but he has the mullahs keeping a short lease on him these days...no one will really listen to him anymore.

But to answer your previous question, I consider myself a liberal in the grand tradition of liberalism ;p  Like John Stuart Mill's essay On Liberty.  That's my favorite work of political philosophy.  Kinda short though, he wasn't trying to articulate a fully realized and developed philosophical framework.  So I guess you'd say I was a libertarian.  But I like classic liberal xD

Classic liberals are libertarians--in the American sense of the word--these days. I disagree with your philosophy, but it does help me determine where you stand. After all, you and I share similiar disagreements with both the Democrats and the Republicans, but we're on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

...or is that alternate positions on the cubed spectrum...?

[Joe000]

No, no it wasn't. I was serious. You may have noticed the recent troop funding bills the Democrats have been attaching troop withdrawel requirements to? In essence, they are forcing Bush to make a choice: either end the Iraq war theirway, or veto the funding bill and it end due to a lack of funding. Either way he's screwed.

Ah yes, the one with benchmarks and all of that.  And they passed some nonbinding resolutions.  Sure, whatever.  How much you want to bet Bush just uses a signing statement to say which parts he is going to follow and which ones he isn't? 

There is not going to be a war with Iran, hence the lack of outcry against it...what would be the point? Diplomacy is working well. The Iranian people actually like the U.S.--though that appreciation seems to be dissolving slowly day by day with our actions--and the Iranian government is not stupid. Ahmanidejad is the only insane one, but he has the mullahs keeping a short lease on him these days...no one will really listen to him anymore.

If the neoconservatives (and the liberal interventionists too) get their way, there will be.  Did you read how during the British sailor hostage crisis the US offered to conduct air raids and such against Iran, but the British told them to stay out of it?  Yeah.  The neocons will use ANY excuse to expand the war to Iran.  After all, it's part of their grand plan to democratize the Middle East.

Classic liberals are libertarians--in the American sense of the word--these days. I disagree with your philosophy, but it does help me determine where you stand. After all, you and I share similiar disagreements with both the Democrats and the Republicans, but we're on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

No, actually I consider myself a philosophical radical.  It's just so much more romantic and noble that way, with visions of dudes like William Godwin running through my head xDDDDDD

[Kyronea]

Ah yes, the one with benchmarks and all of that.  And they passed some nonbinding resolutions.  Sure, whatever.  How much you want to bet Bush just uses a signing statement to say which parts he is going to follow and which ones he isn't? 

I'll bet you're probably right on that one. Thing is, those only work when Bush has flunkies in Congress that'll do his bidding. Thanks to having the opposing party in control of Congress we are able to avoid such a situation.

I would like them to do more, personally, but you have to understand that it's not that easy. The majorities in both the House and the Senate are simply not as large as they truly need to be in order for them to fully do all of what they need to do.

If the neoconservatives (and the liberal interventionists too) get their way, there will be.  Did you read how during the British sailor hostage crisis the US offered to conduct air raids and such against Iran, but the British told them to stay out of it?  Yeah.  The neocons will use ANY excuse to expand the war to Iran.  After all, it's part of their grand plan to democratize the Middle East.

Yeah, tell me about it...it's stupid, sad, but hopefully with what we've got in power now it won't happen. Besides, all we'd do now is get our asses kicked by Iran. Iran is not Iraq...they have a solid Army and Air Force equivalents, and without the full power of our military they will kick our asses so hard we'll kiss the moon.

...damn you Chrono Cross...

No, actually I consider myself a philosophical radical.  It's just so much more romantic and noble that way, with visions of dudes like William Godwin running through my head xDDDDDD

Ah, okay. Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

[Ramsus]

Any more than that and I'd just be repeating the book anyway. If you lack enough interest in exploring possible solutions to our tax problems to read even a single, rather short book, then it's not worth explaining. You're better off sticking to what you know.

My point was that you are presenting the arguments so you might as well inform of us of what all they are.

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496

My point was that the plan presents some interesting ideas that makes it completely different from a simple textbook case of a sales tax, and that makes it worth reading about. If only, because then maybe you'll start thinking beyond silly textbook examples and about real life solutions other than our current situation.

I don't know how much time you have, but I definitely don't have time to go giving you a free explanation of something I've given you a very clear ultimate source to. I already have enough duties I have to take care of.

I "might as well" is not a valid reason for me to waste my time.

[Kyronea]

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496

My point was that the plan presents some interesting ideas that makes it completely different from a simple textbook case of a sales tax, and that makes it worth reading about. If only, because then maybe you'll start thinking beyond silly textbook examples and about real life solutions other than our current situation.

I don't know how much time you have, but I definitely don't have time to go giving you a free explanation of something I've given you a very clear ultimate source to. I already have enough duties I have to take care of.

I "might as well" is not a valid reason for me to waste my time.

And perhaps I don't feel like purchasing a book to pursue an argument on an internet forum. Furthermore, I noted that most of the people purchasing the book seemed to be interested in purchasing other books that are obviously against my own political beliefs, so I don't see why it would hold any value for me in the first place.

This discussion is over. I don't see a point in pursuing it any further when obviously neither one of us is interested enough to keep it going.

[Joe000]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/lelong4.html

Some commentary about the whole Imus thing.  Fuck Al Sharpton and every racebaiter like him.

[Ramsus]

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496

My point was that the plan presents some interesting ideas that makes it completely different from a simple textbook case of a sales tax, and that makes it worth reading about. If only, because then maybe you'll start thinking beyond silly textbook examples and about real life solutions other than our current situation.

I don't know how much time you have, but I definitely don't have time to go giving you a free explanation of something I've given you a very clear ultimate source to. I already have enough duties I have to take care of.

I "might as well" is not a valid reason for me to waste my time.

And perhaps I don't feel like purchasing a book to pursue an argument on an internet forum. Furthermore, I noted that most of the people purchasing the book seemed to be interested in purchasing other books that are obviously against my own political beliefs, so I don't see why it would hold any value for me in the first place.

This discussion is over. I don't see a point in pursuing it any further when obviously neither one of us is interested enough to keep it going.

What the hell? You don't stamp your foot and declare "This discussion is over." after someone suggests you try some type of Chinese food and you decline, citing your dislike of Chinese food in general. You simply decline, because there's nothing to pursue -- either you read it or you don't.

There was no discussion to begin with. Merely a suggestion to read about something.

However, you've revealed another interesting aspect of your personality (in addition to the unnecessary drama)... I would be worried about someone who prefers to filter what they read based purely on association and current beliefs, especially if that person were myself.

How can you believe strongly in something when you have yet to explore the possibilities? Sounds a lot like faith.

Anyway, you're probably foaming at the mouth now, so I'll leave things at that. You have to develop your own sense of introspection and self-awareness. Otherwise you'll just be a dog, mindlessly trained to whatever it is that you "prefer" to read.

[Kyronea]

What the hell? You don't stamp your foot and declare "This discussion is over." after someone suggests you try some type of Chinese food and you decline, citing your dislike of Chinese food in general. You simply decline, because there's nothing to pursue -- either you read it or you don't.

There was no discussion to begin with. Merely a suggestion to read about something.

However, you've revealed another interesting aspect of your personality (in addition to the unnecessary drama)... I would be worried about someone who prefers to filter what they read based purely on association and current beliefs, especially if that person were myself.

How can you believe strongly in something when you have yet to explore the possibilities? Sounds a lot like faith.

Anyway, you're probably foaming at the mouth now, so I'll leave things at that. You have to develop your own sense of introspection and self-awareness. Otherwise you'll just be a dog, mindlessly trained to whatever it is that you "prefer" to read.

Actually, no, I'm not foaming at the mouth right now. I'm rather calm and cool-headed, unlike how I was when I wrote that post(though for completely unrelated reasons.) As such, allow me to apologize.

As for the filtering...that's not really the reason...it's more a case of not having any funds with which to purchase a book, which I thought was irrelevant information and thus I should provide an alternative reason, one that is not truly applicable. I would become offended by your misconceptions about me except that I've shown nothing to the contrary in my behavior recently, and as such I would make the same assumptions about my character that you are.

I don't lack introspection...I simply fail to use it at times. I'm human. More than that, I'm emotionally immature, something I'm working to get past. It's quite an embarrassment for a twenty-year old to have a temper tantrum, but that seems to be exactly what I've done here, and again I must apologize for it.

I do find it oddly amusing that a Marine is critisizing me for "believing whatever I am trained to believe" but that's just irony for you. (You are a Marine, right? I know you're in one branch of the military, at least...forgive me if I was mistaken about you being a Marine.)

[Ramsus]

I'm an Airman, and in the Air Force we're actually expected to think and pay attention to detail, in addition to getting things done.

Despite the training, I'm still highly critical of everything I encounter. It's just that I have enough willpower to consistently do the right thing without being conditioned into it though -- one just has to maintain a flexible state of mind. When I'm expected to act, I know how put the bullshit aside, make a decision, and get things done by making conscious choices.

[Lord J Esq]

I consider myself a liberal in the grand tradition of liberalism ;p  Like John Stuart Mill's essay On Liberty.  That's my favorite work of political philosophy.

Ooh! My favorite work of political philosophy is probably The Evil Overlord List, Peter Anspach's great twentieth century code of laws and strategies pertaining to the success of villains. Widely accepted to be the greatest human writing since The Bible, and recognized by an increasing number of scholars to be the single greatest human writing of all time, Anspach's practical list at once exceeds the evildoer's mundane tactics of mass destruction or world conquest, and rather goes on an exploration of the quandaries of human nature by whose presuppositions we perspectively engage our surroundings with such villainous intent. A child could read the List, but only a world-crushing fiend could master it.