My Chrono Series Thoughts...

[Dark Angel]

Wait, how can Lavos be the victor at all when you erase it from time within the DBT using the Chrono Cross?

Serge is the key to opening the door to the Frozen Flame. This is what is meant when they call him the Chrono Trigger. Lynx takes his form so that he can access it as well, before Serge arrives and destroys FATE.

Actuly that was the Time Devoworer... Just Schala merged with the Mamon Mashin...

It was imparative that She be seperated from Lavos' grasp becuse she was being used to destroy the vary foundashon of time itsself...

But that's all that happend...

The Dead Sea made it aparint that Serge was fare more important then a glorafide door opener...

-Edit-

Daggart... That made perfict sence...

But it didn't toltaly rull out FATE's hand in CT...

It duss make one thing absolutly clear thuogh... Asumeing there where noscars in time & there was just one world at the start of CT... Then there is absolutely no way FATE could interfear...

But I've aways exepted that as a fact... Perhapse I'm not saying this corectly...

For me there's enuff evedints to sujest that there is a time cycle gowing on...

While the Masamune is one this the Dreamston is another...

CC states that the rock the humans came into contact with was a shared of Lavos...

How could that shared exist in the past pre-dateing Lavos arival Without FATE to blow up the only known seperet part of Lavos... the Frozen Flame... ?

There is no mentoning of any other shared of Lavos besides for the FF & that thing was blown up by FATE in Serge's home world... Probabuly affter it contackted Serge atop Tera Tower...

FATE blew the Flame up so that Serge could not use it to unmake the the new future or mess anything up... But yet it still remaned... In shards but still just as powerfull...

If there where anything else in the games diologe to sujest otherwise I would see where you are comeing from...

But I think I just proved that the events of CC only minded Serge's world back into Another world...

What you sead is true... If FATE where not alive or to be made yet in historys plains then yes it could do nothing...

But the events of the Dead Sea proved that FATE even if it is in small ways duss have the power to influince other timelines...

The Dream Stone is proff that Time has split once before... While just like the Masanmune is it entyerly possable that it's destructon came abouts in other ways... It is not mentoned...

But on the other hand there is proff about what hapend...

So I can only go with what I beleve I know happend...

Asumeing however that for some resone I am Wrong on all this FATE still would have influnce over the latter events of CT... as I explained before the Charicters where moved into a New Timeline of there own creashon at that point wich the Black Omin simbolized...

In that Timeline they DID win & thuse FATE was born...

[V_Translanka]

No, you're mistaken, it is not Schala and the Mammon Machine, it is only Schala and Lavos. What Belthasar says has been proven to be a translation goof. The part that says "Mammon Machine" was for unknown reasons added into the English translation.

And, as you seperate Schala from Lavos, you thereby erase it from existence, and Lavos continues to be dead. Combining was a ditch effort after being defeated by Crono & Co.

The rock that the apes come into contact with is the Frozen Flame, not Dreamstone. It occurs some time after Lavos crashes into the Tyranno Lair.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the Dreamstone proving that time split before...

And as for the new timeline in Trigger, that comes the moment that Marle is sent to the past and is exemplified when she is erased from existence (sent to the DBT) and Crono & Lucca decide to help her by saving the real Queen.

[Dark Angel]

Actuly the Dreem Stone & the Frozen Flame are one & the same... Acording to text in Zeal it was the read rock that made them into what they are...

And acording to CC that red rock was the FF...

Now... About this translashon error...

Could I read an article on it?

If what you say is ture then the Timelines canont re-occure...

But It's odd that waht you say spited text that mach's up in bowth CT & CC...

Queen Zeal thretens to throw Crono & Co. into the MM so that they would become one with Lavos... The same thing was latter reveald to have happend with Schala...

This isn't just somone here's translashon is it?... It's kinda hard to trust anything that's not confermed by Square wean relateing to there own games...

[Radical_Dreamer]

The Frozen Flame and Dreamstone aren't the same. Dreamstone existed on the planet before Lavos, and in abundance. It may have been a translation error, or an oversight, but they can't be the same. Hell, they behave differently as well.

[V_Translanka]

No, the translation error had nothing to do with Dreamstone not being the Frozen Flame...It had to do with the part that says the Time Devourer is Schala, the Mammon Machine, & Lavos.

I think Zeal meant that if they faught the MM, their power would be absorbed by it, and they would also thusly be defeated by it.

I believe the translation was reported by both someone at GameFAQs and then confirmed by someone here as well...And if you can't trust a fan translation, that means, what? You don't take Radical Dreamers seriously? That's just silly.

And, too true, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame are not the same. They don't even look the same. Maybe Radical Dreamers's FF looks a little like Dreamstone, but definately not Cross's FF...

[Dark Angel]

LOL ok... Point dearly note'd vala RD comparison...

And I must apologize... I've explaned myself so many times on other boards before I somtimes actuy misstake my resones as the general consumton....

What I'm Saying is the Dream Stones are the shaterd remanes of the Frozen Flame...

FATE blew the FF up in the Dead Sea acording to CC's text...

My asumton on the parts of it travaling thrugh time is founded only by the fact that CT's text mentons that Zeals Red Rock (The one mentoned in one of Belthazars Books) is what He used to construct the Mamon Mashin...

It also mentons in that Book that that Red Rock is what gave thought & reson to pepole as well as the ability to Love & Hate)

Then CC calls this Red Rock the Crimson Flame & strongly sugest it's Lavos...

And for what we know the first actule contact we ever made with Lavos was the Zeal Dezaster... So to me it had to be the Red Rock...

Do I make any sence?...

[Dark Angel]

-Edit-

Sorry... Dubble Post...  

[Symmetry]

LOL ok... Point dearly note'd vala RD comparison...

And I must apologize... I've explaned myself so many times on other boards before I somtimes actuy misstake my resones as the general consumton....

What I'm Saying is the Dream Stones are the shaterd remanes of the Frozen Flame...

The problem with this is that the red rock - "dreamstone" existed on the planet before Lavos ever had any contact with it, meaning that they cannot possibly be shards of the Frozen Flame. (If you'll remember the episode in which Crono & Co journey to the past to find some to repair the Masamune...)

[Dark Angel]

LOL ok... Point dearly note'd vala RD comparison...

And I must apologize... I've explaned myself so many times on other boards before I somtimes actuy misstake my resones as the general consumton....

What I'm Saying is the Dream Stones are the shaterd remanes of the Frozen Flame...

The problem with this is that the red rock - "dreamstone" existed on the planet before Lavos ever had any contact with it, meaning that they cannot possibly be shards of the Frozen Flame. (If you'll remember the episode in which Crono & Co journey to the past to find some to repair the Masamune...)

That is a problem...

But what I've been sujesting is that the Peace's of the Frozen Flame where blown apart thrugh Time...

Remember that IF the FF was actuly destroyed in the Dead Sea it was probabuly just emerging from a Gate as the games text sujested... FATE wanted to make shure that the Flame couldn't fall into anyones hands...

That's what the big exploshon was about...

By my best guss I would asume the fragmints of the Flame probabuly fell through differint parts of Time... Seemingly mostly landing in the distint past... The thing is eather way the Frozen Flame threw itsself right into a trap...

I don't think Lavos is that stuped... It probabuly plained it to happen...

This is the only logical concushon Iv'e come to as for why...

It add's up to me...

[Symmetry]

Again, an object cannot under any circumstances be its own creator. Without dreamstone being present in the original timeline, there can be no Zeal, no Mammon Machine, nothing similiar to the CT/CC world we know.

[Dark Angel]

Again, an object cannot under any circumstances be its own creator. Without dreamstone being present in the original timeline, there can be no Zeal, no Mammon Machine, nothing similiar to the CT/CC world we know.

True... And sence my explenashon use's FATE to explane the DS...

I see... That can't work then... Damn...

Nice point thugh... But just for the record... You didn't bring that point up before...

Somone however did bring that Point up about FATE...

Still works in this case though...

[Symmetry]

As Daggart said, the events of CT are responsible for the creation of FATE in CC; however, FATE cannot act before it has been created. The Entity is generally seen as being responsible for the formation of the gates, correct? If it weren't for the Entity's intervention in history, Chrono could have never gone back in time to begin with. The Entity must be a figure established before the events of CT transpire. Not even Lavos was able to act without being "born" - as far as I know, that violates game mechanics seriously.

Also - Marle EXISTED when she erased herself from history. FATE did not exist until after the events of CT, thus the events of CT have to happen once for FATE to go back and alter history. Lavos was defeated in both Home and Another World of CC.

The above statements both imply that:

Again, an object cannot under any circumstances be its own creator.

And, "for the record", when I pointed out "again", I was referencing the very clear statement by Leebot that:

First of all, with or without the Grandfather paradox, there's the issue of causality. A few key principles:

1) A phenomenon will not occur if no cause is present. (Given time travel, the cause may be in the future.)

2) As a corollary to the first principle, a phenomenon may not be its own cause.

Its a wonderful thing to theorize about CT/CC, but when your explanations start to become overly complicated, perhaps its a good time to step back and remember that simpler theories are generally better than super-complex ones. Sure, you can try and speculate that dreamstone came from the future, but wouldn't it make much more sense to claim that they were already availible in the past - especially given the lack of evidence to suggest such a "dreamstone explosion" ever occurred?

[Leebot]

Occham's (sp?) Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

As Symmetry said, this is probably the single most important principle to remember when theorizing. We must also take into account that these games were written by people who wanted it to be understood, and they wouldn't have (intentionally) made it any more complicated than necessary.

[Dark Angel]

Actuly... These where the simpleist explinatons I could come up with...

I guss I just think differintly...

Well... This kinda leaves me standing nowhere... with my own ideas... I am vary glad we had this conversashon though...

Considering that the Timelines have not relapsed before that also automaticly dissproves that FATE in any way could have any derect conecton with Zeal...

Still... I can't help but wonder a few things...

1. Why did FATE not or atlest could not see or speek anything about Zeal?

2. Asumeing FATE never transferd itsself into Kid how did She know all that stuff in Chrononopolus?

3. Asumeing you are right about the Time Devowerur... Shurely Lavos would have seen the possability of that deffet too... What was it thinking?... I see no way for it to pull itsself out of that mess...

4. And here's the BIG one..

Asumeing Lavos was eresed from our hisstory... HOW ARE WE STILL HUMAN??? Infact... How are we even alive...?????

I destinctly recall Lavos playing a rether lage part in that...

[ZeaLitY]

Lavos's intervention through the Frozen Flame was a type of time travel, meaning it still exists regardless of the source. His directions to the Frozen Flame had to leave his Pocket Dimension, an act outside of the normal flow of spacetime. In this way, Lavos still destroys the Ocean Palace, and causes a vortex at Magus's Lair.