My Chrono Series Thoughts...

[Dark Angel]

Lavos's intervention through the Frozen Flame was a type of time travel, meaning it still exists regardless of the source. His directions to the Frozen Flame had to leave his Pocket Dimension, an act outside of the normal flow of spacetime. In this way, Lavos still destroys the Ocean Palace, and causes a vortex at Magus's Lair.

But just as FATE is a by product of Humans without Lavos ruining our future Lavos' Frozen Flame is to a by product of Lavos...

Unless the FF was always seperet from Lavos it required Lavos to make it...

That example could work for FATE in my explinaton... But not Lavos...

See it's not a matter of what Lavos did... It's a matter of Lavos existing... Obveusly if he dussn't exist he can't do anything right?...

And the FF as far as I know is a product of Lavos...

For example... If Lavos dusn't ever exist... Nore can the Frozen Flame... And thuse nore can we as we are...

Infact if Lavos where erased from existince the Reptitles would have probabuly won the war as Crono & Co. as we know them could never have gone back in time to stop the Black Tirano trom devoworing all the Apes...

[ZeaLitY]

I haven't read the rest of this topic, but I hope my peers are using the Pocket Dimension theory.

The Frozen Flame and Lavos's destruction of the Reptites and Ice Age all came about as a result of his landing on the planet physically. Once he was inside, the theory states that he set up a Pocket Dimension. What you should have heard is that once Lavos is destroyed, he is destroyed for all time within the Pocket Dimension. However, in normal history, he would still crash into the planet and have the Frozen Flame splintered off his shell.

[Dark Angel]

That's new to me... But it makes perfict sence...

I always vewed the Darkniss of Time as the main afftershock of Lavos Time Chrash & that's where I he resided as the Devourur of Time...

Corse he only plased this Time Pocket once he became aware of his inevitable demise in Anotherworlds Timeline... (Corect me if I'm wrong) But the Time Chrash was made by Lavos with his benefit in mind right?...

So... By my explinaton basicly he can't exist in the DoT... I asume where you are comeing from though this Time Pocket existed before the Zeal events though right?...

That is completly possable... Infact that may be how Lavos dusn't age... He mainly exist at a sub time Level... And the Oshen Palice shared this Time Pocket with Him by haveing the Mamon Mashin there as well... (I'm gathering that the blueish wavey background was the sigin that they where in the Pocket)

I must ask agen though... Are you guys shure it's not Just the Time Devourur that this aplys too...

I could have sworn that all it ment was the TD could not come into existince... Basicly Lavos still exist as we know him in CT... But neather a fragmint of him or Lavos in full ever wint into mergeing with Schala... (Wich I still wish to vew this article proveing the Mamon Meshin to be a miss translaton)

As far as I know the only Miss Translaton was the Time Devouours Name...

On Tera Tower it should have been called the Lunar Dragon right?...

Anyway lastly Do you supose the Wind Sound presint in the Final Battle in CC was the "Black Wind" Janus/Magus was always refering to in CT?...

-Edit-

Actuly now... Aftter giveing it some thought... I'm starting to beleve in multiple Time Pockets....

1. The End of Time

2. The Bend of Time

3. The Darkniss of Time

4. And Lavos Time...

IT would seem that Lavos eather has the ability to crawl into these pockets at will & even the power to cereate them... but bowth the EoT & the BoT are proff that others can acsess them as well... Not to menton Serge's pressints in The DoT & Crono's in LT...

Duss that add up tou you too?

[Leebot]

That's new to me... But it makes perfict sence...

I always vewed the Darkniss of Time as the main afftershock of Lavos Time Chrash & that's where I he resided as the Devourur of Time...

Corse he only plased this Time Pocket once he became aware of his inevitable demise in Anotherworlds Timeline... (Corect me if I'm wrong) But the Time Chrash was made by Lavos with his benefit in mind right?...

Correction: Lavos created his pocket dimension as soon as he landed, before knowing anything about his possible future. Back then, Another didn't even exist. The dimension we refer to as Another wasn't created until after Crono & Co. defeated Lavos (Keystone T-1 timeline), then, Lavos pulled back Chronopolis (the Time Crash), etc. This is what became Another.

You can find information on the pocket dimension in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=353

You can also find info on my Time-Error theory and the Bend of Time there.

[Dark Angel]

That's new to me... But it makes perfict sence...

I always vewed the Darkniss of Time as the main afftershock of Lavos Time Chrash & that's where I he resided as the Devourur of Time...

Corse he only plased this Time Pocket once he became aware of his inevitable demise in Anotherworlds Timeline... (Corect me if I'm wrong) But the Time Chrash was made by Lavos with his benefit in mind right?...

Correction: Lavos created his pocket dimension as soon as he landed, before knowing anything about his possible future. Back then, Another didn't even exist. The dimension we refer to as Another wasn't created until after Crono & Co. defeated Lavos (Keystone T-1 timeline), then, Lavos pulled back Chronopolis (the Time Crash), etc. This is what became Another.

You can find information on the pocket dimension in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=353

You can also find info on my Time-Error theory and the Bend of Time there.

Thanks I'll be shure to read it...

I now think a bit differintly though...

I too asumed that Lavos would have crawled into a PD as soon as it arived to atlest pervint if from ageing...

That or one alrety exist around Lavos...

And for that matter the Darkniss of Time may have been the same thing for the Time Devowurur...

But I am farly positive that The End of Time & the Bend of Time are simuler place's... And I highly doubt that Lavos would have made them for our benifit...

That leads me to beleve he isn't responceable for all the PD's... I'll read into that tread before speeking any further on the matter...

-Edit-

OK... I've finished reading a good porshon of it... (NOT ALL) And I'm quite impressed that you guys actouy found a way to locgily explane things withough useing just the known macanics of the Chrono Series Unavers... You actouly aply real mathamatical works here... To say the least you are probabuly giveing this more thought then the games creators... I truly respect your level of comitmint & amout of free time...  

Anyway... In an anwere to the main ishure at point that duss explain what you where saying quite well...

(I don't know if you coverd this latter in the Topic yet but it would seem that Lavos' Gates are far more Powerfull then the "Entitys"...

The Planit whom the most of you beleve to be the entity is capable of only moveing 3 pepole in a gruop...

However Lavos power is fare beond that... Lavos easaly threw 4 pepole into 2 seperet time periods aftter your querl with Magus...

Lavos as fare as I can figure must have used the Frozen Flame as a kind of homing becon the focus all of his power to bring that entire structure into the Sea of Edin...

There must have been liveing pepole amungs that gruop as there had to be entitys capable of reproducton in ourder for us to get to Serge right?...

Simplely Put the power of Lavos far exeds the Power of the Entity... the Planit had to rely on the conter efects of the Time Chrash in order to pull the capital of Dinonopolus (Tera Tower) into the same Time line as well...

Anyway I need to read more into it but for now that's where I stand...

The Time-Error seems to be a sound idea as well... agen if you never sold this I'll just breef my Idea about as for why Lavos' shell is fully intact in the OP...

Basicly the Time Chrash was started during the Zeal Dezaster acourding to the end text in CC...

Thuse that is the point where the Timeiles Split in to 2 possable futures... the one where Lavos Lives un-interupted & the other where Crono kicks his but...

Basicly we where Looking at the :avos who would rule the future... the Efects of our traval into Anotherworld only became sound wean the Black Omin was born... From that point on history was differint then Crono & Co.'s

If the BO where presint in the begining of the Game then it would be safe to asume they never travled thrugh reality... But sence they found themselves in a world that was now influinced by this large Black floting object & they had no knowlage of it from there past being of a differint Timeline... It's safe to asume that that was the point they where brought into Anotherworlds Time Line... This is also suported by 2 things I've noted...

1. If Lavos where to be deffeted in the same timeline it would be impossable for Crono & Co. tpo have lerned about him thrugh the means they did...

They wached a recoding of the End of the world that they would have pervinted otherwizse...

Asume int all took place in 1 Time Line it would be impossable for them to have known becuse there own histoty would have pervinted it...

But... if they saw the future of there own Time Line & Crossed into & saved another they would retain knolage of what happend in the future despite seemingly pervinting it...

Also... Note that the Incarnashon of Schala... Kid only seems to exist in Anotherworlds Time Line...

Well... the Ending Anime Seen at the end of the CT remake shows us that Lucca finds Kid...

It's safe to asume that THAT was a good hint as to what world they where now in...

Basicly from what I've red here my explinaton gows like this...

CT starts in the Lavos Timeline & shifts into Another worlds Time Line during the Zeal Dezaster...

Anotherworld Timeline is latter split into 2 by Serge (The Life/Death 50/50 thing) Branching into the orgigonal AW & the new Home World where the Liveing Serge now resided...

At the End of CC the split timeine was merged back into 1 world agen wish sipmly was Another world the timeline where Crono & Co. Won...

Duss that add up?...

[V_Translanka]

I believe the End of Time is a more natural occurance. As it's name implies, it is a kind of 'end' to time. There is basically nothing there, although a kind of time still continues to move forward.

The Bend of Time could be caused by the Time Crash, or the creation of Home World possibly. Perhaps it was caused by Lavos's impact w/o his knowledge.

I don't know if we can say that the Planet cannot enable more than 3 people to travel through time...That seems like it could aslo be the fault of either the Pendant or the Gate Key if you thought that way. And it's not that it's not possible, but that 4 or more are sent to the time space coordinants of least resistance (ie The End of Time). If the party had another Pendant & Gate Key, 6 of them could get around comfortably.

And in reality, Lavos's immense gate (it's actually questionable if it was simply Lavos that caused that gate, or if it was some part of Magus's summoning that went awry because of Crono & Co) sends Crono+2 one place and Magus somewhere else. So, in essense, Lavos cannot send more than 3 people through time to the same place. But Lavos CAN create pocket dimensions and gates at will (Ocean Palace Disaster shows this in Magus's flashback when Lavos sends the Gurus and Janus through time).

I don't think this makes Lavos more powerful than the Entity, though. The Entity, as we know, created the events that led to the downfall of Lavos through temporal manipulation. The Entity also had the power to send Marle to the DBT, this, I think, shows the Entity's real power.

Also, since the Entity can be seen as the Planet, we know that Dreamstone comes from it, and with it, the creatures Masa, Mune & Doreen. The Masamune, the Pendant, and the Mammon Machine are created from Dreamstone, and although they absorb Lavos's power, their roots are the earth.

It is very odd the kind of wierd symbiosis Lavos and the planet share. Lavos draws it's power from the earth, and yet, the Dreamstone draws power back from Lavos...

Actually, Trigger starts in the original, "Lavos Timeline" and shifts to the "Entity/Planet Timeline" when the Entity steps in and 1. sends Marle (and thusly Crono) back to 600AD and 2. sends Marle to the DBT. The shift to Another World's Timeline comes when Crono & Co. defeat Lavos (and actually, after the "Fall of Guardia"). The same is essentially true for Dreamers. I do not think the Merged Timeline is simply Another World though, as Serge survives for one, it is more a...I don't want to say "perfect"...but certainly less imperfect...? Ah, Ideal! That's it, the Merged Timeline is more the "Ideal Timeline".

[Dark Angel]

Eather way the End of Time & Bend of Time can still be vewed as PD...

There oragins may differ but I beleve we can all generaly agree that they arn't part of the general phisical world... I.E. You can't just walk to one of them...

That is true about the Magus insedint though... But the Time Chrash was all Lavos' doing...

However... On second thought I do beleve the Trea Tower counter was entyerly the Planets doing...

Perhaps they are equle in strangth?...

That would seem to be the best explinaton thus far being since they have lead to eachothers death atlest once each way...

Anyway... You know... I never thought of that... But... How can you be shure that in the origenal Time line Crono & Co. didn't travl thrugh time?...

A vary important event happend becuse of them... The defeet of the Reptitles... If they didn't enterveen the Reptitles could have won... But then agen Lavos could have just whiped them out...

But it is still fully possable that in the origenal Lavos timeline Crono & Co. did travl time... And just failed...

Note the events of the Dead Sea for example...

Lavos was trying to alter the curint future in Home World back into his favor... And in that senario Crono & Co. where dead ghoust...

They had faild to win in that senario Becuse of Serge...

Now even though it could be explaied as simpley as Crono & co. dieing at the spiter like claws of Lavos...

Asume for a Momint in the Origenal Time Lime that Crono & Co. DID travel thrugh Time & they DID stop Lavos...

Wich Leads us right back to the events of the Dead Sea where for some Resone FATE desided to not Destroy the Frozen Flame & thus Alow it to Contact Serge & case the bad Future to be reborn...

I have no consept on how the macanics of that would work but acording to CC that was vary possable for a momint...

If that where the senario before that would also alow FATE to have existed for a time in the origenal Timeline & thus influinced the gates in a way as to beinifit Crono & Co. in there quest so that the Good Future would be reborn in another possability... That is what FATE was bilt for anyway... To inshure the existince of the pepole of Chrononopolus...

Even though FATE clearly had a more vived Idea on what it wanted to do then just that...

One   could easaly asume that FATE would never alow such a thing to happen becuse it would go derectly agenst what it was made for...

But please note that this would not be the only time FATE has immbrased it's own downfall...

Damn... Now I can't rull out that stuff I sead earlyer agen... @#$%!

Somone dissprove this... lol...

Anyway I still need to look more into that topic... (Go's to read)

[V_Translanka]

I do not believe that the EoT could be so easily viewed that way. It may be possible, if one waited out time, to arrive w/o temporal manipulation, to arrive at the EoT. I believe the EoT is more encompassing than a simple Pocket Dimension.

The Time Crash wasn't all Lavos's doing. It was guided by Belthasar so that the events of Cross would transpire.

The original timeline Crono & Co. did not travel through time and Lavos ruled the world.

The defeat of the Reptites was originally caused by both Ayla and then, Lavos, during his impact on the planet. The Entity could have only stepped in to show Crono & Co. the events they see after they've occurred. Remember the 300 Year Reunion? The things they see are like the Entity's life flashing by before their eyes.

The ghosts we see in the Dead Sea were told to us, by Miguel, to be angry ghosts and nothing more. They are angry because Serge has become the arbiture of time. Nothing Serge could have prevented Crono from defeating Lavos. They were angry because their timeline was collapsing (which was actually Crono's fault when he defeated Lavos).

[Dark Angel]

I don't beleve the EoT to be that simple eather...

I'm just saying that It's Oragins lie in the absince of Time... & thus there it probabuly lies...

Time is only observed in the EoT it may not be presint in there... Eather way I still see it as just another sub-reality... or PD as the populer term here is...

It is proff however that Lavos is not the only one to benifit from them...

I personaly always beleved that the Time Devouorur is responceable fot the Existince of The EoT aftter it destoyed atlest a small porton of it in the DoT thuse possable creating the first sercomstance where the law of Time ebed so that such a place could exist...

Anyway...

About your statemint about the Lavos Timeline... I'm afrade that is not a reather decent enuff explinaton to desmiss what I sead as a possability... Merly just like my own... Another point of vew...

No where in eather game do I recall it stateing that Crono & Co. could not have been part of the origenal TL in such a way...

It would be simpeler to asume otherwise but it's also just as easy to see that the Planet or whomever would make the apreoperet steps to save there future from Lavos the first time around...

There are two ways what you say could work though...

1. The enishal TL is alterd into another corse where the Planet did make an atimpet to save its life... But for some resone negleted to do so in the one timeline for some unknown reson...

OR

2. The Planet always made an atimpt to save itsself & the Lavos/Entity TL was always the inishal one...

For me the latter make more sence becuse I see no resone why the planet would only attimped to save itsself on a off hand 50/50 bassess & not 100% of the time...

The only possable defince to the #1 possability is that the planet MUST DIE the first time around so that Crono & Co. could have lerned about Lavos the way they did...

But like what the Dead Sea shows us... The future would then be put in FATE's hands to desided reather if the New future should be undone in favor of the old...

Wich then leads us to ask... If that was so... What possable motivashon could FATE have had to do such a thing?... Not to menton it would aslo probabuly mean that CT infact is not the inishal starting point in the series as the Timelines Would have possabley split un-numberd times before...

[V_Translanka]

The Entity is saving itself from the future where Lavos already rules in 2300AD. It is that future that it is preventing w/Crono & Co's interference. That future which already exists.

[Daggart]

Well... This kinda leaves me standing nowhere... with my own ideas... I am vary glad we had this conversashon though...

Don't feel too bad about that. Zeality's done that to me more than a couple times sence I came here.

I don't beleve the EoT to be that simple eather...

I'm just saying that It's Oragins lie in the absince of Time... & thus there it probabuly lies...

Time is only observed in the EoT it may not be presint in there... Eather way I still see it as just another sub-reality... or PD as the populer term here is...

I always figured that he end of time is the very edge of space/time. Like the end of a string doesn't signify a lack of string, the end of time wouldnt signify a lack of time.

The only possable defince to the #1 possability is that the planet MUST DIE the first time around so that Crono & Co. could have lerned about Lavos the way they did...

Somewhat true. In the chrono universe, the future seems to be just as tangable as the past or the present, not some shady posibility. Therefore it had to play out once before chrono and them were able to see how it played out and stop it.

[Dark Angel]

The Entity is saving itself from the future where Lavos already rules in 2300AD. It is that future that it is preventing w/Crono & Co's interference. That future which already exists.

That's what I'm saying... I'm just trying to determen if these actons did ocrre the first time around or not & if they didn't the first time then I'm trying to anwer why...

I always figured that he end of time is the very edge of space/time. Like the end of a string doesn't signify a lack of string, the end of time wouldnt signify a lack of time.

That's is also a vary good possable persepton of it... But the natcher of the EoT duss seem to be differint from the rest of the normal time flow in the standerd CT unavers...

Time is almost tangable there... You can observe & even go to any point in time from there...

I vew the EoT not so much as the end of a string... But more as the man looking at the string...

That's why I vew it as a Pocket Dimenton...

[V_Translanka]

I don't know how plausible that sounds either...I mean, time still flows within the EoT...And are we even sure that time can literally be 'viewed' in the EoT? Could it not be more simply that Gasper has just gone to different timelines while within the EoT? Maybe not...But time still flows, so it would have to be the man looking at the string from within the string, perhaps looking back from the edge (to sort of combine both ideas)?

[Dark Angel]

I don't know how plausible that sounds either...I mean, time still flows within the EoT...And are we even sure that time can literally be 'viewed' in the EoT? Could it not be more simply that Gasper has just gone to different timelines while within the EoT? Maybe not...But time still flows, so it would have to be the man looking at the string from within the string, perhaps looking back from the edge (to sort of combine both ideas)?

Well I do recal reading a part where gasper talked about vewing differint epochs from within the EoT...

So I do beleve it can be vewed as well as acksessed from there...

Time isn't something that you can just excape from... If it's the law of the unavers...

The EoT isn't so much as the end of our time as it is a vewpoint of it...

It's a PD that can be acsessed by our would thrugh time Traval...

The only clue to it's oragins that I have is it's name... It may have not even been created froum our times absince...

Basicly the laws of time we have are not the same in it & that leads be to beleve it's not in our normal reality....

IE... A man can live in the EoT & witniss first hand the begining & the end of our time without ageing the 65,002,300 years that passed in the CT unavers...

The EoT alows you to do this acording to the games text by vewing time...

The pillers of light acted like gates into other timeline so that one could visit differint epoch's first hand as well...

It's merliy a reality within our reality.... So to say... A peach of thread amugst other threads that make up the string....

Time just passed differintly in there just as it eather dusn't pass or barly pass' at all in Lavos PD & the DoT... Wich vary posabley could be one in the same...

[V_Translanka]

Okay, I've swept the cobwebs out of the ol' brain bucket and now am thinking more clearly...

Dark Angel, as soon as I read your theory that the Entity could have tried and failed to use Crono & Co. in the original timeline, I knew, just knew there was something fundamentally flawed there, but, as it was late, and all the synapses seemingly fiering on the wrong cylinders, I couldn't place it. Now I think I have it though...

It would not be possible for the Entity to use Crono & Co. previously. This is because if it used them before, it would not be able to just use them again. There was one time the Entity could grab hold of Crono (via Marle), and that is at the Millenial Fair when she has the Pendant & was using the Telepod (what would later become the Gate Key). It is only possible that in another dimension the Entity, Crono & Co. failed during a first attempt by the Entity that would later cause the undoing of that Planet, but not the ones that we encounter in Trigger.