Author Topic: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea  (Read 2597 times)

Kyronea

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Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« on: May 08, 2007, 02:43:24 am »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6584011.stm

Quote from: Article
Lost world warning from North Sea
By Sean Coughlan
BBC News education

Archaeologists are uncovering a huge prehistoric "lost country" hidden below the North Sea.

This lost landscape, where hunter-gatherer communities once lived, was swallowed by rising water levels at the end of the last ice age.

University of Birmingham researchers are heralding "stunning" findings as they map the "best-preserved prehistoric landscape in Europe".

This large plain disappeared below the water more than 8,000 years ago.

The Birmingham researchers have been using oil exploration technology to build a map of the once-inhabited area that now lies below the North Sea - stretching from the east coast of Britain up to the Shetland Islands and across to Scandinavia.

'Terrifying'

"It's like finding another country," says Professor Vince Gaffney, chair in Landscape Archaeology and Geomatics.

It also serves as a warning for the scale of impact that climate change can cause, he says.

Human communities would have lost their homelands as the rising water began to encroach upon the wide, low-lying plains.

"At times this change would have been insidious and slow - but at times, it could have been terrifyingly fast. It would have been very traumatic for these people," he says.

"It would be a mistake to think that these people were unsophisticated or without culture... they would have had names for the rivers and hills and spiritual associations - it would have been a catastrophic loss," says Professor Gaffney.

As the temperature rose and glaciers retreated and water levels rose, the inhabitants would have been pushed off their hunting grounds and forced towards higher land - including to what is now modern-day Britain.

"In 10,000 BC, hunter-gatherers were living on the land in the middle of the North Sea. By 6,000 BC, Britain was an island. The area we have mapped was wiped out in the space of 4,000 years," explains Professor Gaffney.

So far, the team has examined a 23,000-sq-km area of the sea bed - mapping out coastlines, rivers, hills, sandbanks and salt marshes as they would have appeared about 12,000 years ago.

And once the physical features have been established, Professor Gaffney says it will be possible to narrow the search for sites that could yield more evidence of how these prehistoric people lived.

These inhabitants would have lived in family groups in huts and hunted animals such as deer.

The mapping of this landscape could also raise questions about its preservation, says Professor Gaffney - and how it can be protected from activities such as pipe-laying and the building of wind farms.

Wow...simply wow...this is history, people, lost history now rediscovered. Ancient communities, homes, spirtiuality, culture...all lost when the last ice age was coming to a close. The historical value of this find is simply uncalculable!

Of course, it also serves as a warning of what events such as global climate change can do...there's no telling how many people might have once lived on this large plain now buried beneath the ocean, but imagine if a similiarly large amount of land along the coast of France or the United States, or China, or any other large industrialized nation...it's truly devestating what that would do to us, so all the more reason to get climate change under control, eh?

ZeaLitY

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 02:47:02 am »
This kind of thing really gets me going, especially the Jonny Quest drive in my mind.

I'll submit these for any curious souls:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythical_place
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_lands

Chrono'99

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 06:25:49 am »
I wonder what name they'll give to this lost country... Mythical sunken lands are generally islands, so they can't take inspiration from that.

It might have been an interesting place in any case. Were there Neanderthals in that place? Who knows, maybe the legends of the Jotun, Nordic Giants, Ymir, etc. had their origins there.

Kyronea

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 06:30:02 am »
It might have been an interesting place in any case. Were there Neanderthals in that place? Who knows, maybe the legends of the Jotun, Nordic Giants, Ymir, etc. had their origins there.
Possibly, as this lost country would definitely have still existed before the Neanderthals went exitnct, since it only sunk around 6000 B.C.E.

Paleontole

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 10:18:34 pm »
Yes, archaeology is very awesome  8)

But I think, another point being missed here in terms of climate, is that the earth is changing all the time, we've had higher temperatures, lower temperatures, all without human interference. It is a cycle of going up and down, the archaeological record shows this. Having said that, we do need to take care of our planet regardless of all the political bickering over it. It's also unfortunate that we populate the coastlines so much, when they can face destruction so easily.

Kyronea

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 10:29:36 pm »
Yes, archaeology is very awesome  8)

But I think, another point being missed here in terms of climate, is that the earth is changing all the time, we've had higher temperatures, lower temperatures, all without human interference. It is a cycle of going up and down, the archaeological record shows this. Having said that, we do need to take care of our planet regardless of all the political bickering over it. It's also unfortunate that we populate the coastlines so much, when they can face destruction so easily.
True, but remember, the latest change in global climate is at a much faster pace, with a direct correlation between human industrliazation and the rise in average temperatures and CO2 level in the atmosphere.

One of the greatest ways we could get it under control is by using that CO2 for something instead of letting it go to waste. An engineer friend of mine came up with this idea of verticle farms...thirty-story greenhouses powered by a coal plant that pumps all of the CO2 into the greenhouse and utilizes it to grow crops...we'd solve world hunger and power generation for quite a long while, more than enough time to figure out a better, more permenant solution to power generation, crop production, and global climate change.  Until that time, we need to concentrate on using all of the CO2 we are producing for something rather than just pumping it away into the atmosphere. That way, we avoid human-caused climate change AND gain a new resource! We win on both levels.

dan_death

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 10:46:46 pm »
This is a very interesting discovery; this just goes to show that there are still a lot of things we haven't discovered in this world that could be right under our feet.

cupn00dles

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 11:00:15 pm »
This is a very interesting discovery; this just goes to show that there are still a lot of things we haven't discovered in this world that could be right under our feet.

Do you live in the ocean or something?

Paleontole

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 11:34:42 pm »
Well, climate change can occur (relatively) speedy, just within the last 1000 years or so we've had the medieval warm period and the "little ice age". Has industrialization effected it, probably. Using the CO2 does seem to be the most efficient way to slow it down, I haven't heard any ideas regarding it until the one you mentioned, which is interesting.

Finds similar to this have been noted in North America. On the west coast, it is believed a coastal route was open from the Bering Strait down along the coastline, which would've been a more hospitable travel route to the America's than going through the glacial split farther inland, which was the accepted way until recently. The problem is, any good evidence is buried under 100+ feet of water at this point. Same thing goes for the east coast, the coast line was pushed farther out, and presumably, it was some type of low grasslands that were good for hunting (since early peoples could just stand on higher ground and look out over it)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 01:38:58 am »
Yes, archaeology is very awesome  8)

But I think, another point being missed here in terms of climate, is that the earth is changing all the time, we've had higher temperatures, lower temperatures, all without human interference. It is a cycle of going up and down, the archaeological record shows this. Having said that, we do need to take care of our planet regardless of all the political bickering over it. It's also unfortunate that we populate the coastlines so much, when they can face destruction so easily.

Uh... this has nothing to do with archaeology, or very little. Archaeology generally isn't applied to this field of study (and definitely isn't that which specifically studies temperature fluxtuations.) This prehistoric study is more the field of anthropologists, rather than archaeologists, whose field I think generally runs within the confines of recorded history, or at least where there is a great deal of material evidence.

I don't see what's quite so amazing in any of this. The culture is nothing spectacular compared to what was going on a bit further south in continental Europe... just because it's sunk under water doesn't make it that impressive. Or that's how I see it, at least.

What I find far more compelling is the discovery that the Mediterranean was once a dry bed, or had at least dried out, partially refilled, dried again, and done this several times before it finally flooded again via a massive cataract at the straights of Gibralter (which would have been a waterfal several miles wide, and several miles high, flowing in the from the Atlantic over a thousand years.) The think layers of salt at the seabed are the likes that only appear in shallow drying lakes where the sun evaporates the water and leaves the salt behind.

dan_death

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 01:42:57 am »
This is a very interesting discovery; this just goes to show that there are still a lot of things we haven't discovered in this world that could be right under our feet.

Do you live in the ocean or something?
We aaaallll live in an ocean.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 04:20:57 am »
I don't see what's quite so amazing in any of this. The culture is nothing spectacular compared to what was going on a bit further south in continental Europe... just because it's sunk under water doesn't make it that impressive.

Come now, Mr. Krispin, that is entirely ill-conceived. Yes, sure, it is all the more astounding for us to explore the great societies of ages past, for a myriad of reasons which you could so well articulate. That is seasoning for the dish. But seasoning alone won't fill you up. It is not the "greatness" of past societies that makes their history so invaluable to us. It is the mere fact that they existed at all, and that something of their culture has endured through the centuries. That we can then study these vestiges, and piece together a more coherent mosaic of the human past, is its own reward. It is meaningful entirely in itself.

Kyronea

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 04:29:25 am »

Come now, Mr. Krispin, that is entirely ill-conceived. Yes, sure, it is all the more astounding for us to explore the great societies of ages past, for a myriad of reasons which you could so well articulate. That is seasoning for the dish. But seasoning alone won't fill you up. It is not the "greatness" of past societies that makes their history so invaluable to us. It is the mere fact that they existed at all, and that something of their culture has endured through the centuries. That we can then study these vestiges, and piece together a more coherent mosaic of the human past, is its own reward. It is meaningful entirely in itself.
Exactly. Besides, discovering ancient stuff underwater like this is always fascinating for me, even if it's not for some people. It intrigues me and spurs my imagination, and since little does that of late, it is welcome indeed.

Paleontole

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 11:56:25 am »
Uh... this has nothing to do with archaeology, or very little. Archaeology generally isn't applied to this field of study (and definitely isn't that which specifically studies temperature fluxtuations.)

I said that climate change can be witnessed through the archaeological record (and it can), not that the topic is what they deal with.

This prehistoric study is more the field of anthropologists, rather than archaeologists, whose field I think generally runs within the confines of recorded history, or at least where there is a great deal of material evidence.

Archaeology is a subfield of anthropology, though it is sometimes falsely placed into Art History departments at some universities. And no, it isn't limited to the historic period. Some of the greatest finds are from places that have no written history. The complex part of archaeology is trying to rebuild what occured without any historical evidence (or little depending on the situation). For north american archaeology, most work is done with Indian and paleo-indian sites, which are prehistoric until the time of contact.

I don't see what's quite so amazing in any of this. The culture is nothing spectacular compared to what was going on a bit further south in continental Europe... just because it's sunk under water doesn't make it that impressive. Or that's how I see it, at least.

It might not be the most amazing thing ever, but if there is a hole in our knowledge, it should be filled regardless.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Ancient "Lost Country" Discovered in the North Sea
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 01:57:31 pm »
Well, Lord J, I'm not saying that. I understand the value of things even without their belonging to some might civilization and what not, I'm just saying it's not all that amazing in that, unless it's different than what the rest of north Europe had at the time, it will likely just be more of the same, and as such is a curiosity, but doesn't teach us anything new per say. Some people might look at this and go: 'wow, now we'll know so much more.' But especially the pre-historic periods, there is a lot of guesswork involved (and take this as someone at least a bit in the know: even the histoic archaeology is very shaky at times... my personal favorite is the identification of the Venus of Villendorf as a fertility goddess which, while it might exist as a viable theory, is very much the product of guesswork, and the identification of it as that is highly questionable.)

Anyway, you must forgive me. I'm not thinking THAT well. I've just come back from a trip, and am kind of sunburned, and so am not thinking with that much wit or clarity. But I still stand by my statement, that this isn't something that impressive. Or, rather, I think it is far more interesting from the geophysical perspective, rather than the anthropological. Anthropologically, this will likely give us nothing new, so what's there to be that excited about? I mean, if you guys are excited about this, why aren't you clamouring for the publishing of all those excavations of various sites or field surveys that have yet to come out, though they were performed years ago?



I said that climate change can be witnessed through the archaeological record (and it can), not that the topic is what they deal with.

Not exactly. The effects can sometimes be witnessed, but we must be careful in applying climate to what we find in archaeology. Archaeologists have done that in the past, and have found their theories severely questioned since then. For example, a drought that affected Thera at one point in I think the 6th century was taken as one theory as to why the material evidence of Krete was so sparse. Indeed, this climate condition is one that history tells us of (it is mentioned in Herodotos.) But on closer examination, the material conditions on Krete last a century... in no way could the drought have been solely, or even mostly, responsible. Likewise it's been said that climactic conditions were responsible for the fall of the Minoan civilization. This, too, does not exactly fit together. In fact, it is often that climactic conditions having an effect upon the material evidence is perceived when it simply does not exist. We should be careful in applying it as such, because it is a very hard thing to extrapolate from archaeological evidence.

Archaeology is a subfield of anthropology, though it is sometimes falsely placed into Art History departments at some universities. And no, it isn't limited to the historic period. Some of the greatest finds are from places that have no written history. The complex part of archaeology is trying to rebuild what occured without any historical evidence (or little depending on the situation). For north american archaeology, most work is done with Indian and paleo-indian sites, which are prehistoric until the time of contact.

True enough, it certainly is not art history (though unfortunately the field of Classical Archaeology was essentially Classical Art History for the last few centuries, something that has thankfully changed in the past several decades, due to the influence of Aegean Paleo-anthropologists.) Indeed as you might say, Archaeology is a subfield of Archaeology, but what then differentiates it? Generally it is limted to what I have said, where there is recoreded history, OR a great deal of material history. Thus we don't often speak of an archaeologist digging up things from before 3000BC... that's more the realm of anthropologists, I'd think. Archaeologists deal with the periods in which there is seen to be a bit more in the way of material evidence (and occassionally a period showing a lack thereof.) However, not only should you say 'the complex part' but also 'the dangerous part' in regards to where there is no historical evidence. Where there isn't any (and even where there is, but it's worse where there isn't) we can get some pretty wild theories which end up being neither provable or disprovable, and end up with no clear picture. The good thing about modern trends in the field is the move towards applying history in archaeology more closely, and vice versa, where before they were kept seperate. Always a contextual approach yields the most accurate view. Nonetheless, archaeology still has a lot more question marks than does something like literature or history. Tell me what a kouros means, or a kore. What doe the Parthenon frieze depict? Who is buried in the second tomb at Vergina? Why did the Mycenaean empire fall? Who destroyed Hattusis? These questions cannot be securely answered by archaeology.

I don't see what's quite so amazing in any of this. The culture is nothing spectacular compared to what was going on a bit further south in continental Europe... just because it's sunk under water doesn't make it that impressive. Or that's how I see it, at least.

It might not be the most amazing thing ever, but if there is a hole in our knowledge, it should be filled regardless.

[/quote]

Just my point, there really wasn't a hole. Basically, the only thing that we didn't know was the extent of the land-mass at the time, thus the extent of that hunter-gatherer culture, Its boundaries have been moved somewhat now, but it tells us nothing more about neolithic human culture, or has not yet, nor do I think it will.