Author Topic: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly  (Read 2971 times)

Kyronea

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« on: May 10, 2007, 02:49:57 pm »

"George Lucas says Empire Strikes Back was the Worst Star Wars Movie"
http://www.slashfilm.com/2007/02/11/geroge-lucas-says-empire-strikes-back-was-the-worst-star-wars-movie/

WTF?
He's not far off...though all of the movies were terribly written, and the newer movies were mostly CGI fests rather than true movies, the Empire Strikes Back had the infamous cliched father bit, as well being one of the most boring movies I have ever watched. I am completely serious...I had to push myself to keep watching that drek. I would never watch it again unless it were eased by the prescence of a Rifftrax.

Chrono'99

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 03:03:25 pm »

"George Lucas says Empire Strikes Back was the Worst Star Wars Movie"
http://www.slashfilm.com/2007/02/11/geroge-lucas-says-empire-strikes-back-was-the-worst-star-wars-movie/

WTF?
He's not far off...though all of the movies were terribly written, and the newer movies were mostly CGI fests rather than true movies, the Empire Strikes Back had the infamous cliched father bit, as well being one of the most boring movies I have ever watched. I am completely serious...I had to push myself to keep watching that drek. I would never watch it again unless it were eased by the prescence of a Rifftrax.

Regardless, Empire was by far the best movie out of the 6. The cliché part was definitely not cliché at the time, and Phantom and Clones are much more "boring".

Kyronea

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 03:09:42 pm »

Regardless, Empire was by far the best movie out of the 6. The cliché part was definitely not cliché at the time, and Phantom and Clones are much more "boring".
I did say it was one of the most boring, not the most. And that cliche was old long before Lucas thought it brilliant to write into his movies.

Oh, and Empire was the best movie out of the six? Well, that sure says something about how poor it really all is.

ZeaLitY

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 04:03:46 pm »
Qualified critics and the more hardcore of fans agree that Empire is best, so you're taking an interesting position. To make something of it, you'll have to back it up with well thought out facts and arguments. Among Star Wars fans, to reject Empire is to discard what fundamentally made the first series great, and embrace the prequels. Whether or not this is your position, this is the connotation it will have.

Kyronea

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 04:09:57 pm »
Qualified critics and the more hardcore of fans agree that Empire is best, so you're taking an interesting position. To make something of it, you'll have to back it up with well thought out facts and arguments. Among Star Wars fans, to reject Empire is to discard what fundamentally made the first series great, and embrace the prequels. Whether or not this is your position, this is the connotation it will have.
...what?

My position is that the entire series is nothing but a poor rip-off of Dune and other cliched characters and story elements, and as such is, at most, B-quality. Star Wars does not deserve the praise it gets...it's the same stupid story over and over again only dressed up in a sci-fi outfit. I do give credit for pioneering much of the special effects that go into a lot of movies even today with his original trilogy, but George Lucas' creation is not exactly good by any means.

As such I don't care what fans feel is the best of the movies. I found Empire to be extremely boring, and shared my opinion as such. I found the other movies to be even more ludicrous and boring, if that's even possible.

Radical_Dreamer

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Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 11:39:28 pm »
I don't know what to say about having Behe writing Dawkin's entry. That's absurd, it's laughable. And in Time, no less! That amuses me greatly.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2007, 06:19:31 am »

Regardless, Empire was by far the best movie out of the 6. The cliché part was definitely not cliché at the time, and Phantom and Clones are much more "boring".
I did say it was one of the most boring, not the most. And that cliche was old long before Lucas thought it brilliant to write into his movies.

Oh, and Empire was the best movie out of the six? Well, that sure says something about how poor it really all is.
One of the most boring? Compared to the prequels, its gold. Star Wars itself isn't great, and Lucas is a shitty director, but ESB is quite good.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2007, 07:13:40 am »
Star Wars itself isn't great, and Lucas is a shitty director, but ESB is quite good.

Might be partly because he didn't direct it. I have a quote in my personal quote book:

Quote
“Yoda’s philosophy was quite simplistic. ‘If you get angry, you’re gonna lose.’ ‘Don't try, do.’ He has a basic philosophy that is very charming. Not very profound, although young people consider it profound. I wish they would read more.”
   ~ Irvin Kershner, Director of The Empire Strikes Back

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 07:29:44 am »
Am pwnt.

Kyronea

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 09:36:11 am »
One of the most boring? Compared to the prequels, its gold. Star Wars itself isn't great, and Lucas is a shitty director, but ESB is quite good.
Exactly my point. It is one of the most boring films I have ever watched. One of. I will reiterate this one more time, bolded and italicized: one of. By that I do not mean it is THE most boring film I have ever watched, but it is among a select list. On that list are the other Star Wars films, especially the prequels. I simply do not discriminate quality-wise between the six because I do not care to. They are all extremely boring to me, and why I ever watched any film beyond the first one--and by the first one I mean "A New Hope"--I have no idea.

Paleontole

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 01:08:27 pm »
Empire Strikes Back introduces Lando. Making it the best of the movies, case closed.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 01:52:41 pm »
Like ZeaLitY said, ESB is generally considered the best of the 6. I think the most common order of best to worst is 5,4,6,3,2,1. The movies, however, can hardly be accused of being cliche. If they are, it is only because they follow an age-old folk tale archetype which countless other stories have done - it's made use of because it works. It might have been done before, but even something that's been done a hundred times can be redone better, and even if you Kyronea disagree with that, the majority of people will not. To most, Star Wars is the epitome of this sort of story, which few other movies do half as well.

That said, it's true that George Lucas isn't the best of writers. As a director he had his moments, however. Yet ESB is truely not his, except in the general story. The script itself is Lawrence Kasdan, who also gave us such things as Raiders of the Lost Ark and Silverado.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but if you want to make an impact, you have to do more than come across as one of those self-indulgent movie critics who are always saying 'it was so boring, I fell asleep half way through' and other inane comments. 'Boring' is hardly an admissible critique, because it is incredibly subjective, and more often than not is used as an excuse in the abscense of any other criticism. In this case, it simply should not be done. The very nature of these movies as adventure movies makes them more visually and plot-wise exciting than most dramas, so it leads to a contradiction in the critic. Either they cannot endure anything short of a thrill-a-minute action movie, or they're not being fair. And the former does not speak well of their critiquing abilities. This is what is manifested in what you have said, and if that is indeed so I should think that the problem lies not with the movies, but with you (ie. you need to have more patience and the like.) Indeed, it is fair to say they are cliche, because they follow a VERY antique story type, and Lucas borrowed from things like LOTR, Kurosawa, and Dune (or so they say... the last two I don't know first-hand.) However, there is no problem in doing so, as most artist do this to some degree, and some of the best works of literature (ie. Hamlet, and most of the rest of the Bard's work) are if not borrowing another story, straight rip-offs of the stories, which he simply made immortal by his skill with writing.

So if that's honestly your opinion, that they weren't good, you've got to do a little more than throw around broad titles like 'boring' and 'cliche' like a third-rate critic would. Like ZeaLitY said, say a little more. All you're doing is repeating the 'boring' and 'cliche' comments, but you go into few specifics, and 'boring' and 'cliche' are really quite trite and meaningless critiques. Until you back it up somehow, it will remain an extremist opinion only (due to the fact that the fast majority would wholly disagree with you.) Tell me, what would you consider a 'good' and 'exciting' movie?

Lastly, Kyronea, you're posting this on a CHRONO site. Fun as CT was, it was the epitome of cliche. You can enjoy this, but not Star Wars? There is a contradiction here. See, the same sorts of arguments I would use to defend ESB and most of Star Wars in fact are the very same that I would use to defend CT: that it's a fun story, that it has a good mood, good music, fun characters, and so on. The added bonus to ESB which, in my opinion, CT does not have, is good character/costume and vehical/ship design (sorry, just don't like Toiyrama, his designs being a bit too childllike and overdone in my opinion... though in the context of CT, it did work to a large extent, and he's to be commended for that)...  no other science fiction movie other than Star Wars has pulled off the sheer quality of vehical designs. The sharp and clear designs of things from Star Destroyers to X-wings to TIE Fighters to Imperial Walkers are immortal. The stormtroopers and the imperial forces are cleverly reminiscent of WWII German uniforms that it will never seem outdated (unlike, say, the Star Trek movies) and rather becomes timeless in that regard (only a few costumes seem by today's standards to be 'from the 80s'). Indeed, that might be SW's greatest achievement, that somehow it has managed to be timeless, and not feel dated like most other movies succumb to, in particularly science fiction. Finally, George Lucas' most lasting legacy: the works apart from the primary canon that he has blessed and allowed. No other movie or other work has such a large volume of sponsored works written by other authors, making the Star Wars universe one that not just Lucas, but hundres of others have contributed to. In Star Wars, he provided a wonderful creative opportunity for others, who at times have rivalled and outmatched him (a game like KOTOR is, in my opinion, greater to most any of the movies save maybe ESB and ANH.) He also spawned the whole Fan Film movement by allowing such things to be made, rather than bringing lawsuits and C&D orders against his fans (SquareEnix, are you reading this? Note on how you should treat your fans, and the success that Lucas had.) This is the direct consequence of the movies.

cupn00dles

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 04:25:41 pm »
Funny how a pattern can be identified when one compares this topic to that last FFXII topic. And how another one can be also identified when one casts his sight on certain userbased posting tendencies.

Anyways, ZealitY wrote the basics and Daniel Krispin ellaborated on it covering most relevances in case one was uncapable of understanding those basics, so I won't even start, for now, in order to avoid redundances.


This topic could at least have its title changed to "Star Wars: The Bad, the Bad, and the Worse" in order to spare certain users to enter it believeng it to be an actual discussion, couldn't it?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 04:27:46 pm by cupn00dles »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2007, 04:42:25 pm »
Yes, or to prevent association with the good names of the Man with No Name Trilogy!


Daniel Krispin

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Re: Star Wars: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2007, 05:06:15 pm »
Yes, or to prevent association with the good names of the Man with No Name Trilogy!



Speaking of which, my younger brother told me this really interesting thing about that triliogy, in particular Clint Eastwood's character. If you know the film 'Once Upon a Time in the West', that character was supposed to die in it. Apparently, the director (can't recall how to spell his name) intended him to be one of the three men Harmonica shoots at the beginning, but later changed it.