Author Topic: Small Government, Big Government: A Mature Conversation Herein Awaits  (Read 6676 times)

Hadriel

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Personal freedom doesn't really equal happiness. Happiness is really a lot more complex than that, and so is personal freedom. Drugs are a good example of how personal freedom can lead to the opposite of happiness! Also, death.

You're right that personal freedom doesn't equal happiness.  Far from it; no amount of personal freedom will guarantee happiness, because everyone else will have that same amount of freedom.  But I'd be willing to venture that personal freedom offers the best chance at happiness.

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I find that most people that advocate legalizing drugs are white guys who've never touched anything more powerful that caffeine, or maybe alcohol, and are arguing from a purely theoretical perspective. Me a few months ago, for example. But--I've talked to people who have experience with stronger drugs. Generally, at most, they'll advocate legalizing marijuana, which makes sense, since its effects really aren't worse than any number of legal drugs. But legalizing say, cocaine or heroine or meth? Drugs that'll hook you almost immediately and which can have potentially lethal withdrawal symptoms? And how far do we take legalization? Do we allow hard drug manufacture to say, advertise on television? To create a cultural athmosphere accepting or encouraging addiction? Look, obviously the drug war's a bust, but I think most people advocating legalization could do well to give it a long, hard look.

I definitely support legalizing marijuana, as I don't particularly like having to duck around the cops to get it.  :D

As for the others, like I said, people should have the right to control what goes in their own bodies, even if it is likely to kill them.  So yes, I think harder drugs should in theory be legalized.  However, in practice, that couldn't work without first completely revamping our drug education to provide a much more comprehensive knowledge base to kids.  Making the choice to do drugs like crystal meth is nearly the same as making the choice to wreck your entire life; I have a friend who's a cokehead, and he doesn't hold out much hope for his future.  But you can wreck your life in plenty of other ways, so why is it illegal to wreck your life through drugs?

To violate the normal rules of debate and use a personal anecdote, when I got into weed, I came to find out that a lot of things I'd been told about it in school weren't true.  (This was relatively recently.)  Though it does induce a relaxed feeling, it isn't particularly addictive, which I had been told it was.  Granted, I went to a public school in Texas, the most conservative state in the Union, so the actual normal state of drug education may be different elsewhere.

Part of the problems you're talking about are directly due to the illegality of these drugs. With them being illegal, we have no control over doses, over what the drugs are laced with, the quality of the drugs, and so on and so forth. A lot of the medical problems are due to these drugs being messed with or otherwise tainted by those who don't give a damn about the health and safety of their customers: they're just making money.

A person's body is their own. They have a right to do whatever they wish with their own body, and that includes taking drugs if that is their choice. By legalizing these drugs and regulating them, we can make them much safer for people to take. Will they still be dangerous? Sure. I'm not advocating legalizing the hardcore artificial crazy crap like crystal meth, because that stuff'll kill you no matter how much you regulate it. I am, however, advocating the legalization of all the natural drugs; that is, natural as in derived from plant and/or animal sources, rather than laboratory created.

As for advertising? I say let them advertise the same way we allow tobacco and alcohol companies to advertise.

Remember, the key is that people have the right to make their own decisions and should be allowed to do so. Trying to control them, even if the intent is good as your intent is, will do naught but make the government a big, huge, nanny state, and I for one grew out of needing a nanny a long time ago.

Kyronea sums up many of my thoughts on the issue.  The expense and quality issues associated wtih marijuana in particular are a direct result of it being illegal.  Remove the restrictions and there's no longer a point in charging so much.

Your introduction there is almost self-defeating. First you profess that your motivation for wanting the government to be a certain size is due to your personal preference for "positive anarchy" rather than stewardship and defense of the people, which disqualifies your authority on civil grounds. (Sadly, your mistake was being too honest...a mistake you will learn with time not to make, which is a shame.)

Next, you further undermine you position by saying that you favor the smallest effective government. So does anybody who tackles government from a civil perspective rather than an ideological one, myself included. Such an assertion is meaningless, and in its meaninglessness even becomes a liability. The discussion hinges on what constitutes "effective."

Lastly, you fold your entire tent in the last line, admitting that the effective size of the government "nowadays" tends to be big. I certainly don't mean to be hard on you, but your argument is off to a very poor start.

The idea behind positive anarchy is an idealized humanity that has no need for an outside intercessor because it can naturally behave in a civil fashion.  I tried to make the point that this idea is in no way feasible; this being the case, stewardship and the common defense are the fallback plan.  Keep in mind that I'm not necessarily arguing against the idea of a big government.  I'm simply arguing against big government for big government's sake, as well as the idea that a big government is necessarily more effective.

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I support, like you Hadriel, the right of people to control their own bodies. But that's not the real issue here. The real issue is the acquisition, possession, or distribution of dangerous substances. This, in contrast to bodily self-control, should be regulated--and heavily. Such control is vital to, variously, human health, public safety, ecological integrity, and sometimes even civil stability. Drug control is related to issues like toxic waste disposal and gun control, both of which concern the status of dangerous substances (or materials).

If you want to kill yourself, that's fine. You don't need illegal drugs for that. The reason drugs are illegal is that practically all of them are habit-forming, and the vast majority of them are clearly detrimental to human health. They're also expensive as all heck, and remain so even in places like the Netherlands where many drugs are legal to use. This triple combination is very harmful to society, because people get snagged into these spirals of chemical dependency that sap them both of their health and their money. This becomes not only a failure of society to care for its people, but a drain on society because of the inevitable expenses involved with policing and treating drug abusers and drug dealing operations.

The government ought to be empowered to control hazardous substances, and usually it is. Rightly so. With drugs, most of the opposition, ironically, comes from the leftist half of the spectrum--people who either have a personal stake in drug legalization, or support the drug-friendly lifestyle either in practice or in principle. I propose to you that these people have a bias in their judgment that renders them less fit to decide on the issue.

I don't know the exactitudes of the law, so there may be some room for a legal rebuttal here, but as I see it, the pro-legalization camp is begging the question by trying to make this a case of self-control when in fact the sticking point is substance control.

I'll grant you that most drugs are habit-forming and detrimental to human health.  But I don't agree that this constitutes a reason to control them.  Virtually anything can become habit-forming to one person or another.  Why is it not then illegal to watch porn, or to play video games?  They've destroyed people's finances and lives just as surely as any drug.  And besides, if we were going with the logic that drugs constitute a clear and present danger to others by virtue of impairing one's decision-making, alcohol should still be banned.  Do you think alcohol ought to be a controlled substance as well?

On the issue of income tax, I regard income tax as theft because it is the dictionary definition of theft: that is, taking something from someone without their consent.  But I personally can live with it because I don't like to watch others suffer.  As for the people who don't care, it's their rights being protected as well.  You could say income tax is the worst method of maintaining a society except for all the others that have been tried.

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This is not true. In fact, personal freedom when thrust upon people who are not prepared for it, results in crime and oppression externally and mental anguish internally. It is one of the (many) reasons that democracy has not flowered at the barrel of a gun in the heavily Islamic countries of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Humans are creatures of habit, routine, comfort, and familiarity. I suspect most animals are. "Personal freedom" is a repudiation of that mindset, and cannot be taken lightly. Despite America's endless rhetoric about freedom and liberty, these things are not the beginning of a happy existence. They require many prerequisites. Naked freedom is a menace, not a virtue.

Perhaps I neglected to say this earlier, but I did not mean to imply freedom with no restrictions at all.  Personal freedom offers you a chance at happiness, but it must be coupled with knowledge in order to actually achieve that.  It isn't because they're free that people in Afghanistan and Iraq are miserable, it's because they don't know anything about how to put a government together.

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The father of the world's richest man does not subscribe to the Great Man Theory, which lionizes individuals who pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Nobody makes it alone, he says. A person's physical comfort and opportunity have almost everything to do with the society into which he is born. Lucky if it's America; unlucky if it's Bangladesh or Botswana.

Imagine, he says.

"You'll never have a million dollars, never $100,000, never even $5,000, however smart or ambitious you are. The conditions of society don't allow for that. And you'll probably die of AIDS.

"That's the way it is. Those institutions and those phenomena of an orderly society don't exist in a vacuum. They exist because people pay taxes. If you stopped, all those things would die the next day. The police, the courts, securities markets."

I'll get to his assertion that no one born in crappy countries can ever have a decent life later (as in tomorrow, because I need to sleep).  Right now, I want to talk about the individual.

While there is a great deal of truth to the idea that no one makes it alone, in the end, the individual catalyzes whatever achievements (and blunders) they have to their name.  Why is the Nobel Prize for Physics not awarded to everyone the scientist has ever known that's helped him out at one point or another?  Why is the Oscar for Best Actor not given to both the actor and the actor's theater instructors?  It's because we as humans do recognize the idea of personal achievement; we know that the person we're giving the award to was the primary driving force behind whatever it was that he or she did.  Individual achievement is the entire impetus behind capitalism; if one does not believe in this fundamental principle, one might as well support communism.  And as we've seen, communism is every bit as likely to work as the positive anarchy I mentioned earlier.

Lord J Esq

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Do you really want to boil this down to "capitalism versus communism"? I'm not interested in that conversation.

Kyronea

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Do you really want to boil this down to "capitalism versus communism"? I'm not interested in that conversation.
Indeed, especially when boiled down to their essence, in practice, they're both ridiculously horrible. Pure capitalism or pure communism is not only wretchedly unfair to all, but turns into a tool for the rich and powerful. Libertarianism, especially the American form, can never work because it relies on the goodness of people's hearts and ignorance of the realities of situations.

A great example is poverty. Libertarians take one look at impoverished people and immediately declare they are only in poverty because they are lazy or otherwise aren't working hard enough. Here's a fact for those willing to believe that complete and utter bullshit: those people in poverty? They're some of the most hardworking people in existance.

They're not in poverty because they don't work had. They are in poverty because they are unable to get any sort of quality education. Education that is worthwhile and helps people obtain decent jobs that pays living wages is out of reach for most people. Meanwhile, they're so busy doing the best they can to keep themselves alive, sheltered, and fed they wouldn't have the time to concentrate on educating themselves even if it were available to them. Then their children are also unable to be educated and they get caught in a viscious cycle that will never be broken without aid.

We need taxes. We need public education, public police and fire departments, public a whole lot of things. Unfettered, unregulated capitalism will only lead to a few rich and powerful families dominating the entire world on the backs of everyone else.

Burning Zeppelin

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Though I agree with you Kyronea, not all poor people are hardworking, and not all poor people had no access to good education. Some are just lazy, some did just drop out of school, and some do just spend all their money on booze.

Kyronea

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Though I agree with you Kyronea, not all poor people are hardworking, and not all poor people had no access to good education. Some are just lazy, some did just drop out of school, and some do just spend all their money on booze.
True. I'm not saying that there are no poor people who are poor purely out of their own lack of hard work, but we're only talking about a small percentage at best.

Furthermore, we must examine why they choose to do this or that. Most drop out of school for one of two reasons:
1. Basic living needs are not met and they need to work to help support the family and are thus unable to concentrate on studies.

2. Media influence as well as the influence of peers and others who were not taught responsibility convinced them to leave.

The first happens much more often than the second, and even in the case of the second we cannot simply write people off. They should still be offered the opportunity to learn.

Which reminds me: most of high school does all of jack for anyone who might need to work straight out of high school anymore. It teaches them very few work-related skills and that fancy high school diploma means nothing. Indeed, it is far more like one gigantic college-preparation insitution rather than true schooling. Sure, most of the subjects are extremely useful, but there is nothing that can be applied practically to help them. At the very least some basic work skills that would apply to several different jobs ought to be mandatory if a person is going to be able to go to college in the first place. It's a good thing to prepare them for college, but without being able to support oneself through college, it is meaningless.

Burning Zeppelin

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Well, I guess maybe in your area it's like that. But in mine, it isn't. All the homeless people, and I am sure of this, just decided not to work and are paying for it. But I guess it is good because by homeless I mean has warm clothes, enough money for food, but doesn't have a permanent home. And there aren't that many either, so, all good!

Hadriel

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Do you really want to boil this down to "capitalism versus communism"? I'm not interested in that conversation.

The individual versus the collective pretty much is what it boils down to, though.

Kyronea

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The individual versus the collective pretty much is what it boils down to, though.
Why? Why is there only one extreme or the other? Why can we not provide for both? You do realize that in the real world idealism doesn't work? That in the real world if people have the opportunity to use power agianst others for their own benifit they will almost certainly do it?

Similarly, focusing on the state as opposed to the individual ends up as the exact same thing, a few powerful people dominating everyone else.

So why not aid both and prevent both circumstances so everyone can truly have the freedom they deserve?

Hadriel

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I did not say there was only one extreme or the other; it's obviously important to strike a balance.  But though neither is all-important, I would submit to you that the individual is more important.  This does not mean that individuals should have the right to screw over vast quantities of people, but it does mean they should be afforded the greatest degree of choice that is allowable in a modern civilization.

One thing that the more liberal side of the debate here has utterly failed to address is the fact that megacorporations are not inherently evil.  In fact, it's far more beneficial in the long run for them to treat people fairly; nowadays, the media and the Internet can spread bad press about a corporation like wildfire, losing them immense amounts of business.

Kyronea

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I did not say there was only one extreme or the other; it's obviously important to strike a balance.  But though neither is all-important, I would submit to you that the individual is more important.  This does not mean that individuals should have the right to screw over vast quantities of people, but it does mean they should be afforded the greatest degree of choice that is allowable in a modern civilization.
And I agree absolutely. That is why I support the systems I have mentioned previously, to give all that equal opportunity. My ideal society would be a true meritocracy, but that is not achieveable in reality without a lot of effort and some oversight.
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One thing that the more liberal side of the debate here has utterly failed to address is the fact that megacorporations are not inherently evil.  In fact, it's far more beneficial in the long run for them to treat people fairly; nowadays, the media and the Internet can spread bad press about a corporation like wildfire, losing them immense amounts of business.
True. Of course they're not evil...since evil does not exist anymore than good does apart from as a philisophical concept, megacorporations cannot be evil. They do require some oversight, however. After all, they can take control of things far more easily than you might imagine.

Take the issue of net neutrality for instance. There has been some serious lobbying by many megacorporations to control bandwidth usage on the internet, to force ISP providers to charge larger amounts of money to access different sites. Think of it as a cable or satallite television subscription...your basic subscription might get you AOL, MSN, Yahoo, Microsoft, and so on. Then you have your higher subscirptions for other sites, like Youtube and Google, then of course the highest to access little places like the Chrono Compendium.

Is it ludicrous? You bet. Are they lobbying for it? Absolutely. And if they do not have enough oversight and if we do not keep that leash upon our Congressmen and women as tight as possible, they will achieve their ends. We leave them unregulated and believe you me, they will take control of sources of information far more easily than they would allow them to simply be.

The good news is that this would only affect American ISPs, and in the long run would probably harm companies extremely, though if there is one thing megacorporations do not do whatsoever, it is think long-term.

In any case, I trust the government more than I trust megacorporations, because I have a say in who is in power in government. I do not have a say in who is in power in a megacorporation.

Hadriel

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I'm going to veer off the topic of government slightly to discuss a discontinuity I've found in the thoughts of many of the liberals I've encountered.

Liberals are most often the ones claiming that we need to be more egalitarian, which is an admirable ideal.  But when it comes to the issue of education, suddenly it's time to judge people purely on their GPA and SAT scores - in other words, to be a meritocracy.  It isn't that I don't value education; I've said repeatedly and I believe wholeheartedly that your ability to acquire happiness (and obviously, to run a government) hinges in large part on your knowledge.  But why the sudden rift in thinking?

It doesn't take much effort to see that in a true meritocracy, the state of education would highly resemble the type of economy that liberals fight so hard against.  Liberals accuse CEOs and successful businessmen of rigging the system to ensure that they stay at the top by buying out competitors and artificially inflating prices.  But when a rich family has access to college prep materials or can afford to send their kids to private school and their kid gets accepted to a selective university over a kid who's dirt-poor, it's perfectly OK for the sole reason that the rich kid has better scores.  That kid will most likely continue the trend, and through the generations the scores will tend to rise.  College admissions are only getting more selective, and eventually there'll be a defined elite cadre of people that it's damned near impossible to break into from the outside.  Many already see Ivy League and similar universities as just this type of social caste.  Why is this fine, but it's simultaneously wrong for rich people to hog all the wealth for themselves while poor people subsist on whatever they have?  We do have public schools, but let's face it: many of them suck like Paris Hilton at a frat party.  Here in Texas, schools' funding comes primarily from property taxes, and poorer areas often simply can't make it work.  Not only that, there isn't just this huge culture of respect for education down here; out of every stereotype about Texas, that one's without a doubt the closest to the truth, and the attitudes resulting from it feed even into the richer school districts.  I ask again, why is this fantastically shitty system an acceptable state of affairs?  I suppose I ought to be asking my state legislature about that, but for the most part they're varying degrees of Warren Chisum, and likely to have less understanding of education than my left testicle.

Anyway, rant mode over.  Back to Kingdom Hearts II and its random cyberpunk-ness that came right the fuck out of nowhere.

Kyronea

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I'm going to veer off the topic of government slightly to discuss a discontinuity I've found in the thoughts of many of the liberals I've encountered.

Liberals are most often the ones claiming that we need to be more egalitarian, which is an admirable ideal.  But when it comes to the issue of education, suddenly it's time to judge people purely on their GPA and SAT scores - in other words, to be a meritocracy.  It isn't that I don't value education; I've said repeatedly and I believe wholeheartedly that your ability to acquire happiness (and obviously, to run a government) hinges in large part on your knowledge.  But why the sudden rift in thinking?

It doesn't take much effort to see that in a true meritocracy, the state of education would highly resemble the type of economy that liberals fight so hard against.  Liberals accuse CEOs and successful businessmen of rigging the system to ensure that they stay at the top by buying out competitors and artificially inflating prices.  But when a rich family has access to college prep materials or can afford to send their kids to private school and their kid gets accepted to a selective university over a kid who's dirt-poor, it's perfectly OK for the sole reason that the rich kid has better scores.  That kid will most likely continue the trend, and through the generations the scores will tend to rise.  College admissions are only getting more selective, and eventually there'll be a defined elite cadre of people that it's damned near impossible to break into from the outside.  Many already see Ivy League and similar universities as just this type of social caste.  Why is this fine, but it's simultaneously wrong for rich people to hog all the wealth for themselves while poor people subsist on whatever they have?  We do have public schools, but let's face it: many of them suck like Paris Hilton at a frat party.  Here in Texas, schools' funding comes primarily from property taxes, and poorer areas often simply can't make it work.  Not only that, there isn't just this huge culture of respect for education down here; out of every stereotype about Texas, that one's without a doubt the closest to the truth, and the attitudes resulting from it feed even into the richer school districts.  I ask again, why is this fantastically shitty system an acceptable state of affairs?  I suppose I ought to be asking my state legislature about that, but for the most part they're varying degrees of Warren Chisum, and likely to have less understanding of education than my left testicle.

Anyway, rant mode over.  Back to Kingdom Hearts II and its random cyberpunk-ness that came right the fuck out of nowhere.
Okay? No, it's not okay, and furthermore I think you need to read my posts more carefully before making these random logic jumps about "rifts in thinking" when one does not exist.

I specifically stated that my true meritocracy, in order to work with reality, would have to be reworked so that everyone had equal opportunity, and I have also exposited several times about the need for better education, for more education for everyone, and so on and so forth. And, as I stated before, one of the largest obstacles to that is the poverty people find themselves in. They barely meet their own living needs so they never have time to study or educate themselves and then their children never have the time either and the cycle is repeated ad inifinitum.

In my true meritocracy, education would be free to all, as would support to anyone who needs it in order to be able to compete. The key is equal opportunity. People will not have equal opportunity unless we seek to provide said equal opportunity.

And as for the state of the education itself? Let's not judge people based specifically on standardized tests and all this junk about meeting test scores, because all that leads to is schools teaching tests, and if there's one thing that's even worse than high school just being one gigantic college preparation class, it's teaching the tests rather than any sort of material, or even how to learn. I will be the first to admit that I do not have all of the answers on how to rework the educational system, but I do know this: it is severely underfunded. What funding there is often heads straight towards athletic programs rather than the real facts.

One thing I would love for schools to stress--or at least elementary/preschool--is how to learn. Teach them how to learn, how to study, how to find out information for themselves, rather than trying to force them to memorize this list of facts or that set of maps or what have you. Furthermore, we have to figure out how to make it interesting. Right now, our teaching methods would be interesting to kids in the 1940s, and last I checked, it's not the 1940s anymore. Kids just aren't as interested in learning as they used to.

Of course, part of the problem there is the fault of the parents, and while there are plenty of cases where this is due to their financial situation and not truly the fault of the parents so much as the cycle they are trapped in, there are plenty more cases where the kids should have no problem and yet, due to the parents, they do. Here in rural Colorado, you'd be surprised at how often I hear kids blathering on about how their parents tell them that they don't need education, that they'd be fine without it. Of course, the problem of that is minute compared to, say, the Bible Belt, but it still exists.

Part of the problem rests on the media as well. Now, I don't blame them for making what sells, because that's their job. It makes them money, and I'm fine with that. What I would like is some cooporation from the media to help get kids motivated into learning. More and more these days parents--ironically enough, usually due to having to hold down two or more jobs to support their family because they were unable to get the proper education they needed--will leave their kids to be raised by the media. By that I mean leaving the kids to sit around and watch television all of their leisure time. Obviously the media knows how to reach out to kids, to get them interested in this product or that product. So why not use that resource? Have the government work with the media. And not just creating idiotic commercials like their anti-drug commericals that wouldn't convince a three-year old...let the experts who know what they are doing write the commercials or what have you...just give them the funding and the directive.

We need to triple the amount of federal spending that goes into education at the very least if we want to see even the slightest true improvement. Programs like the No Child Left Behind Act need to be dumped in favour of programs that actually work. Get some top quality researchers in on the dealie, have them figure out what needs to be done where, when and how and get it done! The longer we sit around on our hands acting as if nothing is wrong, the longer everything rots.

Hadriel

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I'm actually not talking about your posts in particular, or J's for that matter.  But you're hardly the only liberals I've ever talked to.


Kyronea

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I'm actually not talking about your posts in particular, or J's for that matter.  But you're hardly the only liberals I've ever talked to.


Well, then you should have made that clear in your post.

Lord J Esq

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Indeed. I refuse to be characterized by any definition that stands for something I am not. Your anonymous "liberals" are fakes.