Author Topic: What was Belthasar's objective?  (Read 3269 times)

Dark Serge

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What was Belthasar's objective?
« on: May 15, 2007, 09:09:33 am »
Why did Belthasar create FATE? Why did he create Chronopolis? If it's true, that means thanks to Belthasar Lynx came into existence, and thanks to Belthasar Wazuki gone mad and Miguel died. In fact, Belthasar is responsible for the creation of El Nido. But why did he create FATE and Chronopolis? And why did he want the Frozen Flame? Doesn't that make him evil?

ZeaLitY

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 11:02:08 am »
It was all to create and empower Serge with the Chrono Cross. Chronopolis and FATE built El Nido, his home, invoked the Dragonians by traveling back in time to import the technological  basis for the Chrono Cross, split the dimensions by having Lynx kill Serge (the actual split was caused by Kid saving him in 1010 A.D.), allowing Dragonian artifacts from either dimension come together to create the Chrono Cross, and eventually gave Serge a Time Egg to go fight the Time Devourer with.

Just go crazy with the encyclopedia, or the articles. Chrono Cross Condensed Plot Summary is probably the best, but you can dive right in with something like "Chronopolis" or "FATE".

Kyronea

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 02:14:49 pm »
You know, now that I think about it, why did he not just ask the Heroes of Time to do the deed? I know he would still need to create the Chrono Cross in order to destroy the Time Devourer without killing Schala, but still, would it have not made more sense to ask the people who defeated Lavos to defeat the Time Devourer? Or was there some reason he did not do this? (There probably is a reason and it's probably obvious but I'm thinking aloud here so go with me.)

Dark Serge

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 02:55:10 pm »
It was all to create and empower Serge with the Chrono Cross. Chronopolis and FATE built El Nido, his home, invoked the Dragonians by traveling back in time to import the technological  basis for the Chrono Cross, split the dimensions by having Lynx kill Serge (the actual split was caused by Kid saving him in 1010 A.D.), allowing Dragonian artifacts from either dimension come together to create the Chrono Cross, and eventually gave Serge a Time Egg to go fight the Time Devourer with.

Just go crazy with the encyclopedia, or the articles. Chrono Cross Condensed Plot Summary is probably the best, but you can dive right in with something like "Chronopolis" or "FATE".

But.... The Chrono Cross was made from the Tear of Love and Tear of Hate, and these were originally the Dragon Tear. Are these those "Dragonian Artifacts?"

And where does the Frozen Flame fit in all of this?

So actually it was all just a big joke, an act set up by Belthasar? Lynx, FATE, the Dragoons, everything just to power up Serge? And what if Serge would have died against FATE? (Of course that wouldn't happen because YOU'RE Serge, but what if? Everything would have been in vain?)

ZeaLitY

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 03:01:28 pm »
The encyclopedia reveals all about everything. Yes, those are the artifacts; one from each dimension creates the Chrono Cross. The Frozen Flame is a link with Lavos and therefore the Time Devourer, and served as Chronopolis's keystone until the Prometheus Circuit locked FATE from accessing it after the night of the storm in 1006 A.D. Really, the encyclopedia's totally got it down. You can read about Chrono Cross from the perspective of anything, from objects to characters.

Dark Serge

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 03:50:01 pm »
Now I understand... But there was still the risk Serge would have died.... Belthasar took a huge risk by believing Serge would survive through all hardships.

Mavix

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 05:26:30 pm »
I guess he thought that Serge was expendable, enough to die. like his own little pet rat.
muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahha.....................ha........................... just kidding.

Zaperking

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 08:23:36 pm »
You know, now that I think about it, why did he not just ask the Heroes of Time to do the deed? I know he would still need to create the Chrono Cross in order to destroy the Time Devourer without killing Schala, but still, would it have not made more sense to ask the people who defeated Lavos to defeat the Time Devourer? Or was there some reason he did not do this? (There probably is a reason and it's probably obvious but I'm thinking aloud here so go with me.)

Because Crono and Marle are dead by that time, or are helpless and unable to do anything. Frog and Ayla have been dead for 400 and 64,999,000 years respectfully. Magus is searching for Schala and Lucca is busy with her orphanage and things, whilst Robo is acting as the Prometheus Lock.
So they're all busy and really can't do much besides be cameos, even in their ghost form.

And furthermore, Masato never wanted them to seem like invincible people. Just because they fought Lavos and won doesn't mean that they can just beat the Time Devourer, nor maybe someone as easy as Lynx.

Furthermore, Belthasar wanted to save Schala, not destroy the TD. The TD was the least of his worries.

Kyronea

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 09:36:20 pm »

Because Crono and Marle are dead by that time, or are helpless and unable to do anything. Frog and Ayla have been dead for 400 and 64,999,000 years respectfully.
Nope. You forget, Belthesar has a time machine. He can easily retrieve them if he needs to. (And as for the Neo-Epoch only holding one passanger, I would presume it would be easy enough for Belthesar to set up some automated return feature, which would be good for a variety of reasons, especially security.)
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Magus is searching for Schala and Lucca is busy with her orphanage and things, whilst Robo is acting as the Prometheus Lock.
So they're all busy and really can't do much besides be cameos, even in their ghost form.
Lucca and Robo I will give you, but not Magus. Remember, Schala is part of the Time Devourer, so Magus would be more than eager to stop searching for Schala and defeat it, since he would no longer have to search.
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And furthermore, Masato never wanted them to seem like invincible people. Just because they fought Lavos and won doesn't mean that they can just beat the Time Devourer, nor maybe someone as easy as Lynx.
Irrelevant. I am inquiring about the actions of the character in "reality" so to speak, not about what the game designer intended.
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Furthermore, Belthasar wanted to save Schala, not destroy the TD. The TD was the least of his worries.
Are we entirely certain about this? I seem to recall him worrying about the two equally, but that may be faulty memory.

Zaperking

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 10:37:22 pm »
Nope. You forget, Belthesar has a time machine. He can easily retrieve them if he needs to. (And as for the Neo-Epoch only holding one passanger, I would presume it would be easy enough for Belthesar to set up some automated return feature, which would be good for a variety of reasons, especially security.)
Nope, you forgot that any time travel besides using a time egg is hazardous to the time flow. Why do you think time split when Serge was saved? Going back in time and taking/saving people alters the timeline, hence a new future would come about. Besides, the future Belthasar only knows that they did, he's more callous and scheming than the old, broken down Belthasar in post Day of Lavos 2300AD.


Lucca and Robo I will give you, but not Magus. Remember, Schala is part of the Time Devourer, so Magus would be more than eager to stop searching for Schala and defeat it, since he would no longer have to search.
Irrelevant. Magus is looking through time searching for Schala, that is a stated fact in both games, and even by Masato. Heck, how would Belthasar find someone who is traveling through time aswell -.-

Irrelevant. I am inquiring about the actions of the character in "reality" so to speak, not about what the game designer intended.
Irrelevant. I'm correcting you. Regardless of what the player wants, Masato intended and had them killed, showing their mortality and that they indeed can be defeated by something weaker than Lavos.

Are we entirely certain about this? I seem to recall him worrying about the two equally, but that may be faulty memory.
Yup. Why else do you think Belthasar especially had all the events come together to create the Chrono Cross. His main mission is to free Schala. If you kill the TD without saving her, you get the bad ending. Why else do you think the ghosts in Opassa Beach tell Serge to save Schala. Why else do you think Lucca tells Kid that it is important to save the Princess.




Kyronea

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 10:47:27 pm »
Nope, you forgot that any time travel besides using a time egg is hazardous to the time flow. Why do you think time split when Serge was saved? Going back in time and taking/saving people alters the timeline, hence a new future would come about. Besides, the future Belthasar only knows that they did, he's more callous and scheming than the old, broken down Belthasar in post Day of Lavos 2300AD.
Actually, the time egg would also have been hazerdous had Crono's friends not possesed a clone to replace him with, but that's quibbling. You're right, otherwise.

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Irrelevant. Magus is looking through time searching for Schala, that is a stated fact in both games, and even by Masato. Heck, how would Belthasar find someone who is traveling through time aswell -.-
How would Belthesar find him? How does Belthesar plan all of the crazy stuff he plans, what with splitting dimensions, and orchestrating the actions of computer programs and other life forms over thousands of years, even influencing the Planet itself to bring Dinopolis into the Keystone Dimension...so I think it would be a simple task for him to find one shadowmage searching for his sister. Besides, I think you mistunderstood my point: I meant that once found, Magus would stop searching because Belthesar would know where Schala was; I did not mean to imply he would not search at all.

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Irrelevant. I'm correcting you. Regardless of what the player wants, Masato intended and had them killed, showing their mortality and that they indeed can be defeated by something weaker than Lavos.
That is not the bloody point to this exercise, as I said already. I am inquiring as to why Belthesar would not seek them out in the reality of the situation, presuming this is something real. It is a thought exercise and as such what the game designers might intend does not matter. Call it a case of me wishing to fill in a minor but nagging blank.

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Yup. Why else do you think Belthasar especially had all the events come together to create the Chrono Cross. His main mission is to free Schala. If you kill the TD without saving her, you get the bad ending. Why else do you think the ghosts in Opassa Beach tell Serge to save Schala. Why else do you think Lucca tells Kid that it is important to save the Princess.
Err, see, here's the thing: the Time Devourer is supposed to eat all of space-time. Even if Schala were freed, she would still be subject to that same consumption, technically, if she were not a part of the Time Devourer. As such, he would also worry about the Time Devourer. By freeing Schala, he accomplishes both goals, and thus one would presume he would worry equally.

ZeaLitY

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 10:48:55 pm »
In any event, Masato Kato knows.

Chrono'99

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 12:28:58 pm »
You know, now that I think about it, why did he not just ask the Heroes of Time to do the deed? I know he would still need to create the Chrono Cross in order to destroy the Time Devourer without killing Schala, but still, would it have not made more sense to ask the people who defeated Lavos to defeat the Time Devourer? Or was there some reason he did not do this? (There probably is a reason and it's probably obvious but I'm thinking aloud here so go with me.)

My opinion is that Belthasar is simply megalomaniac, crazy, a whacko. (Kind of funny for me to say this with my rank icon being who it is...) Instead of doing something simple, he wanted to orchestrate something grandiose and fantastic, purely for aesthetical reasons (he called the Time Crash his "finest hour"). I think Belthasar went megalomaniac in the prosperous future just like he went nuts in the Apocalypse future.

It's very ironic. I think that the deal in the game about free-will and responsability, like Kid's speech after Terra Tower, I think it takes all its meaning when we ask ourselves "and what about Belthasar?!". Everybody in the party takes FATE and the Dragon God as manipulators, but Belthasar actually acted in the very same way throughout the game and in the backstory. It would have been too simple and black and white if this and that were the purely bad guys and Belthasar was the purely good guy. What Belthasar did is good in that it saved the universe, but the guy certainly isn't only or just "good". He must have a God complex or something.

Kyronea

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2007, 07:33:28 pm »
Ah. As such, he would want his own puppet, a person he had control over as opposed to the Heroes of Time, who might act independently and mess up his plans. Serge, on the other hand, plays right into his hands the whole way through.

That is more than plausible enough for me. Good thing we got that little confusing matter sorted out.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: What was Belthasar's objective?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2007, 03:57:37 am »
Well...Can you think of a plausible alternative to what he did? Do you believe it is okay to sacrifice a few people to save the world?