Author Topic: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True  (Read 3608 times)

Philosopher1701

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Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« on: June 08, 2007, 04:52:27 pm »
*Lost Storyline from Ultimania - Described by the Compendium*

The story above may not be the plot as originally intended for Chrono Cross. Signs point to another overaching storyline that involved Serge binding with the Time Devourer itself; in this scenario, Serge, if he did not defeat the Time Devourer with the Chrono Cross, would ultimately bind with it and cause the Devourer to mature, granting him the power to consume space-time. Chrono Cross Ultimania mainly supports this notion, claiming that the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame must mediate between his fellow lifeforms and Lavos, or else he will inevitably bind with the creature and spell destruction for other humans. Ultimania also postulates that Schala was an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame while it existed in Zeal, and that is how she came to bind with Lavos. Apparently, the Time Devourer needed enough power before it could reach maturity, and Serge would have been the final piece in the puzzle. Quotes in the game also seem to hint at this possibility; three come to mind specifically. A demi-human in Marbule states that "anyone who touches that Flame will become a different being." Lynx, at Viper Manor, warns Serge that "there shall be a deep enmity between you and the world" once destruction occurs. Lastly, Belthasar notes that the Arbiter will gain "extraodinary powers...by binding with the new seed of destruction, the Devourer of Time." However, this storyline is not directly stated or implied in Chrono Cross, and neither has series creator Masato Kato confirmed it himself. For the time being, it remains speculation made by the Ultimania authors. Considering that in the same book, they contradict other canon (such as stating the Prometheus Circuit is not Robo, when Masato Kato noted that the circuit is Robo), the veracity of Ultimania is arguable.


Spoilers for Xenogears


Okay, this is why I think the interpretation of the story is correct. For those who have played Xenogears, you should have noticed many similarities to the plots of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. I think all three games were developed by the same team, and Masato Kato even wrote the script for Xenogears. In Xenogears, there is a being named Deus, who is very similar to Lavos. Both landed on a planet and "created" humans and used human evolution to their advantage. What I'm about to explain fits more appropriately with the Time Devourer, though. According to Ultimania, the TD needs to bind with Schala and Serge to complete it's development. Only then would it become a complete Time Devourer. The TD already has Schala, it just needs Serge since he is the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame. He became the Arbiter when he made contact with it, and he's been granted special powers directly from Lavos. Serge is the final piece the TD needs to devour all space-time. Also, Kid was created when Schala heard the cries of Serge across time. Kid was a part of Schala, and her purpose was to guide Serge in his quest to destroy the TD and liberate Schala. And when Lavos landed on the planet, the Frozen Flame was separated from it. This is a magical object that is considered to be the ultimate treasure, and is vital to the TD's development.

Now for Xenogears. Fei/Abel is known as the Contact because he made contact with the Zohar, an engine that contained the Wave Existence. The WE was essentially God, thus the Zohar contained a god-like power. The Zohar is similar to the Frozen Flame. It is the most powerful object in our universe. The WE wished to break free of its confinement, so when Abel made contact with the Zohar, the WE granted its power to Abel, and since Abel was a child and desired his mother, the WE created Elly to be Abel's mother-figure and placed its will into her. With the WE's will, Elly's purpose was to guide Abel and all of his incarnations in his quest to destroy Deus and liberate the WE. Now, Deus needs the best humans possible to complete its restoration process. Humans are "parts" for Deus. However, it also needs the Contact (Fei) and the Antitype (Elly), to regain the power of the WE, which is contained within the Zohar and is the source of its power. The Zohar and other vital parts of Deus were separated from it when it fell onto the planet, and it must retrieve these parts. Deus binds with Elly, the will of the WE. To complete its resurrection, it needs to bind with the Contact (Fei). The Contact contains the power of the WE, making the Contact something like a god. If the Contact is binded with Deus, Deus will evolve into its full potential and leave the planet to fulfill it true mission (which isn't important here, and is a mystery anyway).

Both Serge and Fei, as Arbiter and Contact, destroy the Time Devourer/Deus with the guidance of Kid/Elly (the will of Schala/Wave Existence) and liberate Schala/Wave Existence. Schala was a part of the Time Devourer, and the Wave Existence was a part of Deus, and both sought to liberate themselves from their captors. Both had help too. Belthasar orchestrated Schala's liberation. Karellen orchestrated the Wave Existence's liberation. Yet, they had very different agendas. Belthasar's ideals were noble. Karellen's ideals were misguided.

And one more interesting similarity. The Contact and Antitype were destined to reincarnate until Deus was destroyed. Every time they meet though, they don't realize who they are and don't recognize each other. In the ambiguous ending of Chrono Cross, it is suggested that Serge and Schala will reincarnate in different time periods until they find each other, yet they may not recognize each other.

Then there is the theme of overcoming God. It's more obvious in Xenogears, but the Chrono series depicts Lavos as a god that humans must reject. The triumph of humanism over theism.

So this is why I think the Lost Storyline of Chrono Cross is the true interpretation. What are your thoughts on this subject?

ProjectoR

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2007, 07:19:31 pm »
magnificent!!! in the end of chrono cross, shala sias" i will find you someday, in this world or another"

then shows a video of shala with blonde hair (shes alone) in what looks like a modern day earth city like new york, or tokyo...

so could this be the answer in this earth world also?

could chrono cross and xenogears, and other games just be like "past lives" of our own?

and now this is the final lifetime, with the end of all time, and countdown to 2012?

 (final fanstasy tactics, spoiler)....  and instead of a HOSTILE jesus figure reincarnating (final fanstasy tactics, spoiler), its actually shala that comes to our earth, or is already here.

there is no proof of this theory, it only lies in youre soul.

Philosopher1701

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2007, 08:26:56 pm »
I forgot to mention another similarity. The Frozen Flame is similar to the Monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Both influenced human evolution. The Zohar from Xenogears is monolith-shaped, and Perfect Works (the official guide to the Xenogears universe) says the eye of the Zohar has existed since the origin of the universe, and suggests that it may have created life itself. The Frozen Flame and the Zohar somewhat resemble the Monolith's function and mystery. Notice the name of the company the Chrono/Xenogears team formed after they left Squaresoft: Monolith Soft. Given the nature of Xenogears and their flagship series Xenosaga, I believe the company's name was inspired by the Zohar's similarity to the Monolith of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Magus068

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2007, 01:36:11 am »
Your post is brilliant!

If that's the case that CC & Xenogears has a similar concept then who's more original? Or does both authors of CC & Xenogears unconciously wrote the story similarly with or without contacting each other?  Its bit out of topic but I'm questioning the originality of both CC & Xenogears based on your assumptions.

ProjectoR

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2007, 04:32:14 am »
its definately similar and has something to do with our own world, i beleive when ppl write these games they either have access to limited knowlege that only a handful know, and or  they are tapping into the astral plane, remote viewing,(psychic), resulting in common themes of worlds, including our own.

i beleive because this world EARTH is so lost, that only we as a whole can wake OURSELVES up, there is no magic game player to come to our rescue.

i and some others beleive a cosmic event, maby sometime this year and upto 2012 era, will change all humans overnite.

Chrono'99

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2007, 07:18:47 am »
There are definitely similarities. It's hard to know whether Takahashi influenced Kato or the reverse, but it probably doesn't matter since Takahashi had been with the Chrono team since Chrono Trigger anyway (graphic director). In my opinion, these are really more thematic similarities than direct equivalences though. The Antitype's role in XG is much more defined and "regulated" than Schala's unique actions in CC for instance.

And I disagree with the Chrono series being about overcoming God. It might be, but it's only a side-effect, a secondary theme. I think the central theme of the series is not that there's a God to overcome but that there simply is no accessible one at all and that humanity has to take responsability and overcome themselves, not him/her/it. There's no Wave Existence in the Chrono series, and Lavos is much more identified with a "mere" parasite than a deity. His "creation" of the modern human species appears more accidental than part of a great master plan. Well, that's my interpretation anyway.

In any case, I never really considered the Lost Storyline as non-canon. It's not even considered as "lost" by Ultimania, it makes sense, it contradicts nothing, and it is implied ingame. The Chrono team could perhaps choose to discard it if they do a 3rd Chrono game and come up with a different explanation (like how CC replaced RD), but as of now, I don't see what's wrong with this awesome and dramatic footnote to the storyline.

Philosopher1701

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2007, 02:13:00 pm »
And I disagree with the Chrono series being about overcoming God. It might be, but it's only a side-effect, a secondary theme.

Maybe I was going a little far there.  :)

But the story does have humanistic themes. That whole biblical allegory interpretation, while interesting (and Xenogears had many Judeo-Christian references), doesn't hold up very well when you see some of the more obvious themes.

ZealKnight

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 01:51:19 pm »
Quote
Then there is the theme of overcoming God. It's more obvious in Xenogears, but the Chrono series depicts Lavos as a god that humans must reject. The triumph of humanism over theism.

Actually I noticed that more in Chrono Trigger, because Zeal knew of how the Frozen Flame fell off Lavos and worshiped him for granting them magic, then everyone(but Queen Zeal that is) revolts. Although they can't really do anything with out finding lavos, and they are struggleing to survive.

mr_nexus

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2007, 05:51:17 pm »
I found that there was also of similarities between Deus and Fate. Both were made-man machines that acted liked God. Both of them used ancient relics as power sources; Xenogear's zohar and Chrono Cross' Frozen Flame.

ZealKnight

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 02:04:53 pm »
Don't forget the dragon god in a religious story component. 

So there was a religious component and its not a side story.

Philosopher1701

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 11:31:40 pm »
This thread is quite old, but I wanted to revive the discussion. I'm interested in what people have to say about my comparison between Xenogears and the Chrono series.

And I just wanted to add one other note to my analysis: Belthasar has a new rival when it comes to grand schemes - Wilhelm from Xenosaga, a series developed by members of the Chrono team.  :D

Jormungand

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 02:21:27 am »
This thread is quite old, but I wanted to revive the discussion. I'm interested in what people have to say about my comparison between Xenogears and the Chrono series.

And I just wanted to add one other note to my analysis: Belthasar has a new rival when it comes to grand schemes - Wilhelm from Xenosaga, a series developed by members of the Chrono team.  :D
It's a good write-up, and you make reasonable points.

However, despite this, I really don't relate the two games that much. Even though both are literally apart of my top three RPGs ever (FFT takes the top spot), their stories, when concluded, leave me with very different perspectives. Though I love Chrono, I do consider Tetsuya Takahashi's Xenogears/Xenosaga the superior work, and one of our time's greatest sci-fi stories.

I'm not rejecting your comparisons, but I do believe any connection beyond coincidence to be artificial. No doubt there are similarities due to overlap of the development teams, but that's about where it ends.

As for the point about the "lost" storyline, I had never even read about it before. But if you think about it, something bad must happen if Serge doesn't use the CC. I guess I never really thought about what that might be, probably because a not-so-good resulting ending felt self-evident. As for the rest of the theory, it seems reasonable, but it's hard to make conjecture based on what little we have.

FaustWolf

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 03:12:03 am »
The interplay between Chrono and Xeno is always fascinating. Strong situational and thematic parallels run through both Chrono Trigger and Xenogears, and I think that's why so many of us on this board are huge fans of both games.

I wonder who influenced who more: Kato on Takahashi, or Takahashi on Kato? Both were involved in Xenogears (which is possibly why there's floating sky islands and three Gurus, er, "Sages," in Xenogears), and I think both were involved in FFVII. Good lord, Takahashi was involved in Chrono Trigger too!

So, get this (not that it's new or anything): Masato Kato and Tetsuya Takahashi were involved in the following projects:

Chrono Trigger
Xenogears
Final Fantasy VII

What do all three projects have in common? A nasty extraterrestrial being capable of causing immense havoc. Do we know if it was Kato or someone else who came up with the idea of Lavos in the first place? If it was Kato, that would be some circumstantial evidence that Xenogears may have been way different without his involvement.

Ugh, typing a post about obscure game scenario designers while studying monetary theory isn't conducive to coherence, BUT: Masato Kato has graced Square Enix's very best products, and so has Takahashi. I'd be interested to see both on the scenario design team of a new Chrono game. Are both freelance now?

Jormungand

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 12:06:58 pm »
What do all three projects have in common? A nasty extraterrestrial being capable of causing immense havoc. Do we know if it was Kato or someone else who came up with the idea of Lavos in the first place? If it was Kato, that would be some circumstantial evidence that Xenogears may have been way different without his involvement.

Ugh, typing a post about obscure game scenario designers while studying monetary theory isn't conducive to coherence, BUT: Masato Kato has graced Square Enix's very best products, and so has Takahashi. I'd be interested to see both on the scenario design team of a new Chrono game. Are both freelance now?
Masato Kato is freelance, and his most recent work was for three new upcoming scenarios for FFXI (PLEASE GOD LET THAT GAME DIE). Tetsuya Takahashi is still with Monolith Soft as of 2008, his most recent project being Soma Bringer.

As for the Kato/Lavos/Xenogears thing... even if Kato did come up with Lavos, it wouldn't have any bearing on his involvement with Xenogears' story. Kato penned the script (the dialogue) based on a story already completed by Tetsuya Takahashi. Furthermore, the purposes and origins of Lavos and System HAWWA (not Deus) are significantly different. While both play an important role in influencing the birth of humanity on their respective planets, they do so quite differently. SH's programming instructs it to create Miang, who gives "birth" to the first 12 artificial humans. They and their ascendants are destined to be resources for Deus, while Miang's goal is to resurrect the weapon from deep below the sea.

On the other hand, what makes Chrono (Cross) so brilliant is its direct connection to evolution here on the real Earth: Lavos's role directly parallels the Chicxulub asteroid in our own history 65 million years ago. The event that caused mass destruction which led to unlivable conditions and eventually mass extinction of the dinosaurs, also paved the way for homo sapiens to become the dominant species.

My point is, the role of these "disastrous" events were quite different from the start. I don't see a lot of Kato's influence in the main thrust of Xenogears' overall plot.

FaustWolf

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Re: Why I Think the "Lost Storyline" of Chrono Cross is True
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 03:05:05 pm »
As long as Takahashi began writing the scenario for Xenogears after 1995, he did so having already been exposed to some of the basic ideas. I have a hunch, completely unconfirmable of course, that Deus is an evolution of the Lavos concept. Same goes for Jenova.